Crit buffs need to be fixed or removed!

[________________Heya]

quote:
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Originally posted by cson
What about Engies and MPs soloing 75% and higher mission with his/her pet while everyone else is having a tough time with 50% missions? Is that the way the game was meant to be played?

How about we start another thread. "Nerf Pet damage and Pet HPs."
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quote:
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Follow up posted by Garzu
Go do it then, im totally against that.
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Thats the NT spirit we have all come to love!
Garzu you are quite the prick arn't you?

[Myga]

Routeen:

I didnt inform you of your motives, I said "I suspect...". Go read the NT forum and maybe you'll see why. If that is not your motives I apologize, its hard not to stereotype when you see 5-10posts a day from high lvl NTs on these forums whose only content can basically be summed up like "MAKE NUKES MORE POWERFUL NERF EVERYONE ELSE".

And are all shotguns crit reliant? No. I can inform you that a ql 200 home defender outdamage my rifles on non crits too, why? Because the rifles who hit harder or as hard on non crits have 5clip magazine, reloading takes as much time as firing 2 more shots so basically the HD fires 7shots in the time it takes to fire 5 with those rifles.

No matter what you do, ppl will use the most damaging weapon they can for the least amount of ip. Crit buffs dont change that, they just move it in the high crit weapon direction. However, nerf crit buffs and you'll only move it it high normal shot direction (and all would use T.I.M. scope and 2.5s/2.5s delay weaps because they fire 1/1 then). This is the feature of a skill based game, AO is skill based unlike for instance EQ which is class based. This problem in itself if you look at it as a problem and not a feature, is not related to crit buffs, crit buffs are just like speed buffs in EQ, they increase dmg alot (please note that they do that also on weapons without high crit modifiers). Can you at least see that its skill based weapons and weapon imbalances that cause low diversity? If rifles had so high reqs that only agents could equip them, and they did more damage than shotguns wouldnt agents use rifles instead of shotguns while no one else used rifle? Instead shotguns are better and agents use shotguns as everyone else. This is the very core cause of the lack of diversity you see today, its totally unrelated to crit buffs.

Wouldnt nerfing crit buffs make agents and MAs less desireable in groups? Would that motivate diversity?

[Routeen]

I am genuinely happy you have decided to join the discussion as opposed to just flaming me Thanks for your apology.


You make two good pts:

1) shotguns as they stand are imbalanced
2) a skill based system generates a follow the leader strategy for weapon choice, or a risk of it.

Changing shotguns might be a partial answer, but it would not change the fact that high critting weapons are far superior to any other type. What makes them superior is access to the buff. Fixing the home defender, or other guns relative to the home defender, does not change this issue at all. The fact that rifles suck compared to the hme defender is a separate problem -- but fixed or unfixed, it does not change the fact that crits are dominant.

One could weaken all the high crits on the shotguns, or on all the weapons. But I honestly can't see much difference btwn weakening all the crits in the game, and weakening the crit buff. It is really a flavor issue.

If you go the other direction, and try to improve other weapons relative to the high crit weapons, then the damage done by crits just set a benchmark. Or you have to improve them by raising the crit. You might retain a bit more character flavor, but that is about it. If critting is the single most important feature, then what you call the weapon is pretty irrelevent.

On the follow-the-leader pt: well, the skill system certainly makes balancing hard, I'll grant you that. But the crit buff locks this in place more strongly than any other factor. A weapon with a poor crit is just a bad weapon, period. As Munchausen pointed out, the dmg multiplier is just too high -- doing 3500 every other hit or so overrides almost every other feature. This imposes a global constraint on the weapons, one that constrain every other balancing angle. It also makes buffs to minimum dmg pointless, even if you tripled or quadrupled there current value.

This is why I single out the crit buff as a problem -- it constrains every choice. Without it, it might be possible to have choices btwn say steady damage over time weapons, fast weapons that recieve benefits from the buffs that raise minimum damage, balanced critting weapons, weapons withgood specials, etc. At this point IP can actually become in issue, since there is more than one strategy possible. It then becomes possible to attempt to balance the weapons. It is not possible when in order to be good, it has to have a good crit.

To tell you the truth, I held back from posting this until MA's were fixed -- perhaps I should have waited on agents as well. However, if that is the only reason that these classes are being included in groups, than this is really a separate problem to tell you the truth -- they just need to be strengthened. But do you honestly want your value to hinge completely on whether or not you can crit buff? As it stands, because damage (and healing, its converse) supercedes every other angle in the game, I have never noticed people having to worry all that much about class composition. So I am not sure how much of an issue it is, actually.

The diversity I am most concerned with is real choices for things like weapons. In the current system, crits are so optimal that people well raise 1-3 dark blue stats in order to take advantage of them. Moreover, there is no tactical diversity. Tanking is meaningless, since as I noted in an earlier post and others confirmed, the mob just follows the crits. Everyone does the same thing, the same way. Damage for the most part is overwhelming -- no tactics are necessary. It is just wham-bam - thank you maam. The source of this is pretty obvious. Everyone uses high critting weapons, and everyone tries to get the MA buff before fighting, regardless whether or not the group actually incudes an MA or not.

It is the crit buff that is causing all these problems. Unless you make all decent high crit weapons class specific, then people will spend whatever they have to to equip one, since it is a dominant angle. If you do make them class specific, then what is the difference between this and making the buff self only (assuming the relative classes are the same)?

[Myga]

I do not think you will get more diversification by nerfing crit buffs rather the opposite, and the reason for it is ranged init.

Lets take 2 weapons:

1: 12-320 1 atk/ 1recharge
2: 12-456 2.5 atk / 2.5recharge
3: 12-600 3.5 atk / 3.5recharge

At high level you have 800+ ranged init without scope, or closer to 1000 with T.I.M scope. What weapon do you pick? You pick 2. Why? Because with crits out of the picture, with that high ranged init 2 will fire as fast as 1. Why not 3? Because even with that ranged init 3 will still be alot slower than 2 (well depends on exactly how much ranged init actually effect the speed, but I think the numbers should be about right). You end up with all ppl using the 2 type weapons.

Today there is a choice:

1: 1-200(500) 1.2 atk/ 1.2recharge
2: 1-450(350) 2.5 atk / 2.5recharge

Obviously today 1 can be very effective with scope and crit buff, it is not so good without scope because it will do almost no damage on non crits. It still fires close to cap with high ql scope. 2 is good without scope, because it fires as fast as 1 then. 2 with scope is a waste because then you fire too slow.

It is not as simple to decide what weapon to use, I am an agent, agents got tons of rifles. They each perform better than eachother in different settings, there is no clearly superiour rifle. I think thats pretty balanced. What is unbalanced is shotguns beeing so much better even for us despite loosing 200+atk, and some shotguns even have same range in practice.

If you do make them class specific, then what is the difference between this and making the buff self only (assuming the relative classes are the same)?

Because the last alternative changes class balance, and class desireability in groups.

[______________Takuan]

What will happen if crit buffs become MA only?

Anyone?

People might actually favor faster (low crit) weapons over slower (high crit) ones. This in turn will have a few effects.

1. PVP fights will last longer due to losing 40% chance to crit
2. 123498273423 weapons then become viable again in the game.
3. Not everyone reaches lvl 200 in 6 months
4. People will stop pestering the **** out of MA's for FREE crit buffs.
5. No more 3 button insta kills in PVP(see point 1)

Crit buffs VS and up were not IMHO designed to be used by every class. I believe the DEV's thought ok here is a good buff for MA's since their fist QL can't be over equipped and it will allow them to compete with the other classes. Oh and let's let them cast it on others to.

At the high levels in this game people rarely do PVM missions without a MA in the group. They have based all their Weapons selections on their ability to get that buff whenever they need it.

I would like to think that PVP was somewhat skill based but considering we have a system where people have 40% plus chance to crit it really comes down to who shoots first alot of times. Even with MA's, If I can get the drop on someone (Dimach, brawl and Shen, punch) sure I can push buttons and hope the crits land well.

I know you guys are resistant to this cause you think your going to be gimped but there will be no game balance until this buff is made MA only. Then they can look at mob HP and AC and judge it not against nova/shotgun damage but all weapons damage. Who knows they may even be able to make DOT weapons viable to.

Look at EQ as a example of this if you played it. The damage system regular/crits worked really well and wasn't that lopsided.

[__________Munchausen]

MSag said:
"Lets take 2 weapons:

1: 12-320 1 atk/ 1recharge
2: 12-456 2.5 atk / 2.5recharge
3: 12-600 3.5 atk / 3.5recharge

At high level you have 800+ ranged init without scope, or closer to 1000 with T.I.M scope. What weapon do you pick? You pick 2. Why? Because with crits out of the picture, with that high ranged init 2 will fire as fast as 1. Why not 3? Because even with that ranged init 3 will still be alot slower than 2 (well depends on exactly how much ranged init actually effect the speed, but I think the numbers should be about right). You end up with all ppl using the 2 type weapons."

---This example doesn't speak at all about minimum damage, change to increase minimum due to buffs, chance to increase speed due to buffs, variation in minimum damage due to weapons/mob type, non-maxed init wep users, etc. It is highly oversimplified and doesn't account at all well for a non-criting picture.

"Today there is a choice:

1: 1-200(500) 1.2 atk/ 1.2recharge
2: 1-450(350) 2.5 atk / 2.5recharge

Obviously today 1 can be very effective with scope and crit buff, it is not so good without scope because it will do almost no damage on non crits. It still fires close to cap with high ql scope. 2 is good without scope, because it fires as fast as 1 then. 2 with scope is a waste because then you fire too slow."

---So where is the choice? Assuming you have the crit buff (which you have to as we are talking about crit buff/no crit buff changes) MSag doesn't indicate any choice. I think it's funny that the guns presented here both look like high-criting shotguns. Throw a gun like

3) 100-500 (50) 2 atk/2 recharge

and while it should be usable it turns out to be crap because of the low crit chance.

"It is not as simple to decide what weapon to use, I am an agent, agents got tons of rifles. They each perform better than eachother in different settings, there is no clearly superiour rifle. I think thats pretty balanced. What is unbalanced is shotguns beeing so much better even for us despite loosing 200+atk, and some shotguns even have same range in practice."

Amazingly, MSag gives us splendid arguements as to why the crit buff is overpowered! 1) That rifles are balanced because they are low-criting weps (not as affected by the crit chance). 2) Shotguns are unbalanced because they are high-criting weps. (heavily influenced by the crit buff) Now why are Shotguns unbalanced MSag? Why? Because the chance of criting is too high. And how does the chance get so high???

Munchausen
RK-2 Engie