2.0 no over equip patch.... no?

[________________Crin]

Just posting to cast a vote:

Over-equipping nerf <----- One big fat H3ll Yea

• Not all classes can over equip equally
  I don't really understand how someone can defend a system that treats their character and others by different rules. Either you are for everyone overequipping or no one. You can't have it both ways
  
• Mobs have been inflated to handle the twinked characters forcing everyone to overequip. Now everyone has to enjoy the tedium of over equipping. (Don't even try to tell me it is fun to do) Also say goodbye to being able to use the items that you find while hunting.
  
• PvP fights are way too short

BTW, I'm a weapon user who just installed implant, bought a MCS, tracked down a soldier for Riot Control and a Trader to cast a 132 Wrangle just to be able to equip the gun I have on now.

[________________punk]

Originally posted by Damion666


6. 60%!!!!!!!!!! You can still equip a ql 16 gun at lvl 10..... hell you can even still equip a ql 60 gun at lvl 10... it will only be as effective as a ql 16 tho (well without a buff that will make you have the skills to use its full potential, and thats not including implants (which can still be over equiped))

A lvl 10 agent with a ql60 rifle will still do more dmg than with a ql16 rifle, just not as much as a lvl 60 agent with a ql60 rifle...

OE will be nerfed, not removed.
OE will still be done, which is very good, just those lvl 7 agent/trader twinks doing 400 dmg/hit will be doing a lot less dmg, still they will be better than any "not twinked" lvl 10 player.

[XtroXtreme]

Yea for over equiping nerf!

The only ones to be affected by this is powergamers and exploiters. Casual gamers will now be able to play the game without as much problems, since Funcom said that MOBs will be reduced in power as well.

If AO is to remain when other SF MMORPGs comes out it need a large player base. Not just a few power twinkers having a privat game with one or two hundreed fellow twinkers. Let face it all twinkers actualy need the rest of the players for AO to remain.

Nuff said!

[KROM127]

if OE is nerfed or removed ...
-> New Uber class the trader !!! whith wrangle and deprive...
-> Uber Uber class the nanotech and its nano

FC will have to nerf them. Dont worry they 'll do (they already have the habit with NT)

OE is not an exploit( everyone can do ...) and the game is designed for... (wrangle, treatment buff, implants)

I m not a ubber soldier and I just started to overequip a little my armor and my weapon, it is not difficult, everyone can, I just spent time and money

[___________Damion666]

Originally posted by KROM127
if OE is nerfed or removed ...
-> New Uber class the trader !!! whith wrangle and deprive...
-> Uber Uber class the nanotech and its nano

FC will have to nerf them. Dont worry they 'll do (they already have the habit with NT)

OE is not an exploit( everyone can do ...) and the game is designed for... (wrangle, treatment buff, implants)

I m not a ubber soldier and I just started to overequip a little my armor and my weapon, it is not difficult, everyone can, I just spent time and money

NT's And Traders wont be uber...... they, and mas, will just have a chance to compete on the same playing field as everyone. They may start to compare to mps in uberness.... but i highly doubt that (not that mps are uber... just well rounded).

[Chocomoogle]

Eh, well, I don't have much to add... but I just wanted to say overequipping wasn't meant to happen, in my opinion.

If armor and weapons go up to ql200, and people go up to level 200... Does it make sense for a level 100 to be able to equip ql200 armor? They're halfway to the max level, yet can use the highest QL stuff? Doesn't make much sense to me...

I think QLs (and skill reqs) are designed to keep you constantly upgrading your weapons and armor (and NFs). Not to get to level 100 or so and be done with it.

They really should make it so that you have to keep your skills up high enough in order to use weapons and armor. They should become unequipped if you lose skills and no longer meet the requirements. This will keep people who can buff themselves in their equipment, which in my opinion is alright (And no, I can't buff myself with anything other than the general buffs... I'm an adventurer.)

Or they could make a QL range for equipping things... Like if you're level 50, you can only equip up to QL60 items. There's nothing too bad about having equipment 5 or so QLs higher than your level, really...

And as for trader debuffs making them too good, I'm sure that FC can find a way to deal with this. Like make it so that when skills are red it uses your normal (white) skill to determine if your weapons should stay equipped.

I'm not speaking from experience, mind you, my highest level character was 49 until I recreated her. All I'm using is what I've read on these boards about overequipping. If I'm wrong about anything (like equipping ql200 at 100, though I've heard that happens) just tell me. Unless it's about how hard it is to kill things at higher levels without overequipping... I've heard it before, and I really don't think higher levels are supposed to be easy.

I know that everyone that supports overequipping is gonna flame me for this, but I'd appreciate it if you could respong without doing so. Arguing doesn't need to involve insults, and since we're trying to balance a game I don't think they fit into this discussion.

~Takira

[Bionitrous]

EVERY lvl50 character will have a full set of IDENTICAL lvl60 gear. Every single damn one of them. It would be DAoC all over again. Why bother even playing. Might as well let the other guys do it for you since you know how you will look.

I know there are characters much better equipped than I am. I also know that I have the same opportunity as them to have the same gear. The playing field is even AND there is opportunity to get better.

Putting in some nonsense DAoC crap like capping what a smart player can wear is detrimental to the game. Fixing bugs and exploits that go beyond the current rules of the game to prevent lvl1 characters with full 6-slot belts with qlvl200 NCU's should be a priority.

If they want to limit how high a weapon a lvl40 Agent can get into, then they should do it properly by making it impossible to equip a gun they deem too powerful.

An example would be to raise the Rifle skill on any new and more desireable weapons. The Qlvl of this new and desirable weapon that mr Ubertwink-implant-to-the-max can get into would actually be LESS powerful than his current Ranee, for example.

If they want to 'nerf' beam using enforcers, they could raise the amount of skill that MG/SMG implants give, raist the amount of skill that nanoskill implants give, all the while keeping the Mauling Clusters unchanged. Raise the bar for the 'underprivelaged' professions while not borking the existing situation.

If they want to be drastic, make Headcracker self-only.

The other example they already included was to make the Trader CompLit buffs self-only. Used to be able to add +55 to a newbie to get him to equip a belt and memory big enough to accept a +190 CompLit buff to be able to accept Essence of ..., to be able to ..... This is a valid way to address 'over-equipping'.

There is no upper limit to the quality level of items. There are very few items available in quality levels above 200. Expect this to change as new playfields are opened and more of the playerbase hits the lvl200 mark.

One of the smartest things FunCom could have ever done was to have player levels go from 1-200 and item quality go from 1-1000. We would not have any of this nonsense of people thinking a lvl1 player should use a lvl1 gun and a lvl83 player a lvl83 gun. Gaaaw, how boring is that?

[________________Crin]

Bionitrous,

Or they could just enforce the rules already on the books. Characters must meet the weapon requirements all the time. The simplest solution is often the best.

[Bionitrous]

that's not the rule that is on the books. Has never been the rule. Not going back to beta 3. Weapon skill has only ever affected 4 things:

- Your ability to equip a particular weapon
- Your chance to hit your target
- Your chance to critical hit your target
- Your damage modifier above what is shown on the weapon's description

Those were the rules. Those are the rules.

If you are asking for a rule change then please state it as such.

I know how the game works and can appreciate what the designers were trying to do. They put together a beautiful system and are being tempted to dumn it down by the ignorant and/or lazy masses who unfortunately were given ammunition for their arguments early in the games history.

I'll fight to keep this game's unique and defining characteristics alive till the end. I'll likewise try to educate others as to how far above all other online games to-date this game is in terms of complexity and opportunity to truly better (or worsen) yourself in comparison to other players through knowledge and effort.

Simple time spent in-game should never be the defining factor in determining a character's 'power'.

[________________punk]

OE works fine as it is. period. I do not see ANY problem with this, you may try to show me problems, but you wont find any real.

If you dont want overequipping go play another game, overequipping makes AO unique in a certain way and rather than nerf overequipping, improve those classes that cant overequip (and please fix crits).

Overequipping was intended by funcom, why else should there be so many buffs? Ok u could argue that they are meant to use in team, but do u really think wrangles are made to use in combat?

I love this game as it is and overequipping is something that makes the difference... I might aswell play DAoC or other crap

Why the hell do you wanna nerf overequipping?
Give me a reason. I am open for discussion.

so long...

note:
OE nerf wont help the NTs (the ones complaining) at all, as all 130+ fighting classes can selfbuff into a ql200 weapon.

[________________Crin]

Bionitrous,

We're talking semantics here. When I say enforce the rules I mean the requirements for an item are given in the description so use them. By using your logic, you could argue a cop out of giving you a speeding ticket because you were speeding yesterday and didn't get one.

But you know what, I'll bite. It is a change, but it is a lot simpler to fix the overequipping than to dance around the problem like you suggest.



punk,

Overequipping was intended by Funcom, but not to the levels that are going on. They have stated that, and ARE going to nerf over equipping. If you must over equip to the extreme then YOU find another game because this one is changing.

If the OE nerf won't change anything then what are you worrying about.

[________________Crin]

Oh and one more thing punk,

The over equipping fix has to do with how well you use a gun that you don't meet the requirements for. So now weapon skill debuffs actually have a purpose.

If you are level 130 and just squeezed into a QL200 gun, you would be more susceptible to a debuff than someone else who could get into it naturally but still buffed up.

Let's summarize:

Weapon user affected by weapon skill debuffs
Nano users affected by nano skill debuffs

Seems to me like the scales will be balanced and NTs could in fact rejoice.

[________________punk]

Originally posted by Crin
If the OE nerf won't change anything then what are you worrying about.

The nerf intended by funcom is OK, it will be great! applause!
But i dont want ppl to force me at lvl 91 (which my soldier is) to use a ql95-100 gun

For me there will be no difference before/after 14.2
I can self equip my gun and i will never get debuffed, as i dont pvp (not possible at lvl 91)

So i could care less...
Though i still dont see why overequipping SHOULD be nerfed at all, cuz it works fine as is.

And I do think that the only class benefitting from it will be traders, as they are the only one with weapon skill debuffs (the -20 general nano is crap) and remember special attacks cannot be deprived/divested...

It would be far better if funcom would nerf crit buffs and scopes.
Damage is allready influenced by attack rating as is NOW, and with lower attack rating u will miss more and and get less crits, so again i think this nerf as proposed from gaute stinks, cuz it doesnt really improve anything (oh yeah, less lvl 7 agent twinks, w00t!!! --- as i would ever pvp at that lvl)

so long...

[Megabio]

Originally posted by Kyana

The idea of "ripping through" mobs till lvl 100 in 5-7 days using over-equiping exploits is ridiculous. I don't care how much time a person spends doing it. It simply is unbalanced with other classes and should not be allowed.

Actually it takes a good 10-15 days. [unless you have someone powerlevel you]
~Chris

[_______________Kyana]

Now, 10-15 days I can believe. I think I can just about get to lvl 100 in 15 days without uber-equiping

I would just have to play more often to do it in 15 RL days, as I have 6.5 /played days on my character now and it's lvl 60.

Now, if my MA could over-equip to lvl 200 fists, then I could probably get to lvl 100 in 7 /played days I bet.

cast "Break Tangent of Boring Chat"

Tangent broken.....


I've been thinking about this the past few days. Doesn't it make sense for Funcom to get this nerf, of over-equipping, over with before they try to do all this profession balancing? It seems to me that they are going to try to balance (are trying to balance) all the professions before the nerf of over-equipping is done.

Why do I get the feeling that when this nerf does come, that all the professions will need to be looked at all over again.

*Sigh*

Kyana

[Bionitrous]

The requirements listed on a gun are clearly labeled as what is required to 'equip' the item. A temporary buff is like getting a quick primer on how to drive a motorcycle and driving off into the sunset. You on it and think you got it all going. However ....

The modifier on how you effectively 'use' the item is your attack rating. Your quick primer starts to fade from memory and you start grinding gears as you shift. Still on the bike, mind you. Just things aren't so hunky-dory anymore.

Please follow.

Since people seem to be looking, I'll take some more time for education of the ignorant masses. Here's a primer on how your attack rating affects damage output:

Fact: for every 400 your attack rating increases you improve your damage by an integer amount. What I mean by this:

- Gun does base damage (1-100)
- With attack rating of 1 you do 1-100 damage
- With attack rating of 400 you do 2-200 damage
- With attack rating of 800 you do 3-300 damage

The lvl 1 enforcer with his lvl200 beam does 1/3 the damage of the lvl120 enforcer with the same beam. Same weapon fractional damage. Many players are ignorant to this fact.

These are the rules of the game. People don't seem to understand them.

What the argument should not be is whether or not the lvl1 enforcer can get that qlvl200 beam into his hands within the rules of the game (exploiters make me sick). This process is a rich and uniquely AO game mechanic. If he can manage it through study, planning, credits, networking, whatever, then he proves himself to be a 'better' player than I could ever hope to be with respect to this particular issue.

The argument should be 'is that number 400 appropriate?'. I think it is not for several reasons.

- Attack rating is not enough of a factor in determining how effective you are with a weapon. More importance is placed on the quality level of the item. I sympathize with those who misguidedly think that over-equipping is the root of their problems rather than a contributing factor.

- Buffs are not as effective in 'live' gameplay as they could be. A +20 general weapon buff has some indirect value in increasing your damage by letting you use a higher quality weapon. However the value during combat is miniscule. 20/400 is a 5% integer increase in damage which works out to a 2.5% increase for the player with a weapon skill of '1'. It only goes downhill from there as the player's 'real' skill goes up and the benefit becomes essentially useless. If a +20 bonus is so meaningless, a trader's +74 wrangle can be seen as 'mediocre' at best.

- Debuffs are likewise ineffective for the exact points stated in the above paragraph.

- Buff/Debuffs to those using NanoFormulas can incredibly shift their power potential. +132 to a NT's MattCrea for 3 minutes can swing the battle for the team againt a tough MOB. Likewise, the Engineer can turn a difficult mission into easy with Mocham's and/or a Wrangle. They are more susceptible on BOTH ends in terms of having their power swing with respect to current skill level.

What we need is:

- First to play with that magic '400' number. For simplicity's sake let's say we change it to 200. Now your +20 general buff (and debuff) start at a base integer increase of 10% damage boost. Not overpowering, not neglectible. You would have to pay attention to your 'current' skill level and perhaps make some decisions regarding NCU complement. The Trader's Wrangles during 'live' play would have more impact.

Note that 'debuffs' would likewise become more usefull.

- Second we need to add some new straight high level debuffs to appropriate classes. A 200 point across-the-board attack skill debuff (without the Trader-like skill syphon) would have a real noticeable impact. Assuming a this debuff got landed on someone with only 200 in his attack skill, he would instantly see his damage cut in half. Not too shabby. Note that this example is probably a lvl 150 character landing his debuff on a lvl50 character.

Again we have more impact on the 'live' game playing experience without destroying the existing ruleset that myself and so many others get enjoyment out of while we're not mindlessly exp'ing at some camp or in a mission.

I continue to enjoy the equipping ruleset that the game designers developed. It adds a fresh twist in a stale collection of MMORPG's. We need to have some tweaks. But not to the basic rules.

=============================================

Finally. 'why does that Enforcer even have a lvl 200 beam? Well, somebody gave it to him or he found it with another character. Two points:

- Don't worry about him, he'll probably be 50 levels above you in a couple days and your worlds won't collide.

- If YOU had a friend with a lvl200 beam YOU have the exact same opportunity to have it in your inventory.

Artificial limits put in to aid less competent players are never good for a communal game like this. There must always be something to strive for and something better than you to measure yourself against. When this measure is simple 'level' it is an indication of an immature game development group.

When 'level' is embraced by the game's community almost to the exclusion of all other factors as the best way to determine a character's power, it is an indication of a simple community unable to grasp moderately complex concepts.

The simple-minded player wants to be at lvl100 and say 'oh, that guy's lvl110 better stay away' and 'oh, that guy's lvl90, I can kill him easy'. There's a place for that. It's called DAoC.

[__________Merkaba715]

where are you all reading that 14.2 will be the OE fix?

[_______________Elria]

Hello,

I think it is a good thing that the over-equiping problem is finally about to be dealt with. I share Crin's opinion on that topic: I'd like to see weapon users affected by buffs/debuffs like nano users are.

As for the requirements on weapons, last time I checked they were labeled as what is required to 'wield' the item .

I was glad to read that primer by Bionitrous on the effect of attack rating (ATK) on damage output. I can see that there is a multiplication involving the base damage of the weapon and an integer amount based on the ATK. So, now that the effect of the increase in ATK has been numerically shown, it would be nice to see the effect of the increase in base damage (i.e. weapon QL)...
A NT that wants to "over-equip" a NF would do this: find or buy the nanocrystal, obtain the required implants/buffs to upload the NF, and that's it. In doing so, he has raised both his potential min and max damage. When teamed with the appropriate buffers, he may actually deal that potential damage.
A weapon user that wants to over-equip would do the same, but in this process he does not only raise his potential damage: he raises his normal damage as well, via the base damage.
So, modifying the base damage of a weapon according to the character's current attack skills seems quite sensible: improving the attack skills would mean raising normal damage, and over-equiping would mean raising potential damage.

So there, I do not mind seeing a level 1 enforcer with a QL 200 support beam. But when that atrox gives me a beating with its beam, I want to think "Ouch, that bastard is good at using that thing!" and not "Ouch, that bastard has been good at using that thing for a few minutes sometime in the past!". Now, if that enforcer has all the implants and buffs required, then I'm fine. It probably does not have many other buffs running though, and that seems like a good tradeoff.
I understand that damage output should not be connected to one's level, but in my opinion it should always be connected to the relevant skills.

[______________Wahoo.]

How will the OE fix change the pet classes?

[Bionitrous]

As harsh as I may sound at times I'm definately on the skill should matter more than Qlvl bandwagon. I just abhor artificial caps and a system where one player cannot be 'better' than another no matter what they do except to do the distasteful task of 'leveling' (god, I hate that word)

I was always a strong proponent of weapond requiring 'attributes' to wield and not skills. You don't hear too many people whining about people in 'uber' armor so far above their level. Usually just uber-weapons.

If Sniper rifles were based on the Agility ability to wield and Rifle skill for the damage range we would never be in the position we are now.

A Ranee for example could require 400 Agi to wield. Base damage would be based on your Rifle skill. When do you think an Agent would first squeeze into one of these? Pretty much within a 15 level range of one another. We'd still have some Agents 'better' than others based on how early they could. Skill would have a bigger impact on damage than it does now.

I was the strongest voice decrying the ill-thought out Qlvl system. It just plain sucks. Notice we now have items with requirements based on Abilities (STR, INT, etc)? These make sense.

We also get the god-awful garbage of items that have straight level requirements on them. These are the result of designers who are too lazy to actually figure out appropriate requirements that would place prospective users just about where they would like.

Ach, whatever. I just hope the changes are an improvement from the total garbage they first floated. Those were put out in response to issues that no longer exist in-game anymore.

EDIT: Oh, when your Wrangle wears off you 'bot will stop responding to commands. That's the pet change.