The New Land Council and EO

[Dabblez]

Originally posted by Rubel


All OOC:

Uwen, does your character really believe that unprovoked attacks by clan organizations against towers that were neutral from day one is justifiable and good? That opinion seems to be far from the official stance of your guild.

The reason why I'm asking is because you're making a statement here that sounds an awful lot like "you should have known this would happen, it's what NW is all about", which is true OOC, but I can't see how this is something any and all characters would realize (IC) when ICC deregluated notum mining.

EO had towers from day one, would it be natural for a neutral person (again talking about IC) to assume that the freedom loving clans would attack their mining towers en masse from day one? I just don't think so. *shrug*

/ooc

I think it is very difficult to make any sense, from an in-character point of view, of NW. It is obvious that NW was designed as a team PvP game and the story element was bolted on afterwards and as such it leaves a lot of unanswered questions for roleplayers.

My reading of it, for what it's worth, is that taking a tower by force is perfectly legal as far as the ICC is concerned. Indeed it is the method the ICC selected to ration out the mines out which admittedly is a very strange concept. The closest real life example to the NW I can think of is something like the Gold Rush, but even then the authorities would take steps to catch and punish claim jumpers.

However, if you think about it, to deregulate in the first place, the ICC must have "regulated" mining at some point. They must have had the means before NW to prevent, or at least limit, illegal mining operations before NW. As even now mining can only occur in ICC appointed plots of land, I think it is fair to assume that the ICC are still in control of things. So when org A takes orgs B tower over, the ICC must have the choice of upholding 'A's rights as original owners or acknowledging 'B' as the new owners and in all cases it chooses the latter thereby making the "hostile takeover" legittimate.

Of course some orgs are more principled than others but basically I tend to agree with Uwen, the moment you set up a tower, you accept that others are entitled to take it away.

of course YMMV.

[Benmor]

I have a good deal of respect for EO. I do think that they were misguided in funding Newland City Councils desire for Mercenaries in Newland. Two wrongs don't make a right. I find it increasingly hard to justify my position of neutrality when some "neutral" organisations and government bodies are responsible for funding the indiscriminate murder of members of JUST ONE of the factions in the OT / Clanner conflict.

The politics of brinkmanship have proven ineffective throughout the history of civilization. "For evey one of my people you kill, I'll kill one of yours" does not lead to fast or lasting resolution.

As a neutral I receive none of the bonuses afforded the 'faction' citizens. In a world where my neutrality was accepted (even, dare I say it respected) I can make up for this through the trade opportunities that my greater mobility and freedom of movement allow.

The mercenaries' contract should be terminated.
The Clans should make Tir a safe city for Neutrals.

If EO continue to fund mercenaries who discriminate against only one faction in this bloody war I have to challenge their assertion that they are a Neutral guild.

A Clanner who discriminates against / persecutes Neutrals is still a Clanner.

A Neutral who discriminates / persecutes Clanners is no longer Neutral.

I must emphasise that these are personal comments and may not be represent the opinion of my org.

[Nyadach]

Originally posted by Santorin
but that does not give you the right to dictate policy for independents that are not a part of your organization.

You mention independants, yet you utterly ignore the fact these people have taken control of a neutral city and ran it under there own policys when they were never elected, are not accountable to the neutral people, and were not given the rights to take control of the city under any legistration. They took the city and you blame me for saying that the neutral population shouldnt stand for the opression? Well excuse me, isn't it DW policy for an independant Rubi-ka? yet from how you are thinking over the situation in Newland, it would see you don't care what happens to it as long as its go no ties to anything off world, and you have no feeling for the the people who are here and what happens to them?

Originally posted by Santorin
I've never seen any IR member spend much time in Newland City. Neither has other ex-IR members I've spoken to. In fact, most IR members seem to stay in Borealis. So I don't really see that you have any authority to speak for the citizens of Newland.

Uh? we own two towers places near to the city. We have people who live and grow up there, and just because you don't see something, does not mean its not there. And yes I have no authority over Newland, then again no one has. And yet again thats my point in this whole thing. NO ONE HAS THAT AUTHORITY!

Originally posted by Santorin
There are no reports to indicate that the citizens of Newland City have any objections to the current administration of Newland City, and I do have extensive intelligence reports on the current state of neutral areas. Neither have I seen anything, from yourself or others, to indicate that they are running the city "as a dictatorship"..

Ok, maybe dictatorship was a bit too strong for them...lets just call them the non elected group who took control of the city without anyone knowing and doing what they like? yep...lots better discription for them :P

[Nyadach]

Originally posted by Sumokan
Nyadach you really need to control you anger or your heart will suffer, here have a IR soda

I'M AN NT!!! I live on aggro.

*gulps down the soda*

((OOC: lol yeah, Nya is a bit of an oppinionated git at times...bet hey ho, gotta love him always getting himself in trouble am gonna miss him one of these days.. /OOC))

[Duzytato]

Originally posted by Rubel


All OOC:

Uwen, does your character really believe that unprovoked attacks by clan organizations against towers that were neutral from day one is justifiable and good? That opinion seems to be far from the official stance of your guild.

((OOC: Rubel, some people play their characters with a philosophy that states: "If you're not with us, you're against us". So in that sense, the attack that is "unprovoked" in most peoples eyes, is not that way with a believer of "if you're not with us" philosophy. ))

[UwensBack]

Originally posted by Rubel


All OOC:

Uwen, does your character really believe that unprovoked attacks by clan organizations against towers that were neutral from day one is justifiable and good? That opinion seems to be far from the official stance of your guild.

The reason why I'm asking is because you're making a statement here that sounds an awful lot like "you should have known this would happen, it's what NW is all about", which is true OOC, but I can't see how this is something any and all characters would realize (IC) when ICC deregluated notum mining.

EO had towers from day one, would it be natural for a neutral person (again talking about IC) to assume that the freedom loving clans would attack their mining towers en masse from day one? I just don't think so. *shrug*

((Ok, my mistake. I replied to, I assumed, an OOC post that was a reply to an OOC post. I was talking OOC. My character doesn't believe the attacks were good, however almost all if not all of the orgs were non-RP orgs. How can you judge the clans by people who don't RP and are most likely clanners because its easier from a gamers point of view? They don't have IC beliefs or politics, the neutrals were closer and had towers and were therefore open season. Then again, when you notice all the fighting going on over towers, you could have probably realised the fighting was going to come your way sooner or later and you can't expect exemption, IC or OOC, if you have towers. And I'm not that way Tif ))

[Raveleet]

OOC:
Since you name Apocalypse amongs the "unsportmanslike" guilds that have attacked your towers ( not that I can remember any such thing happening), I think I am very much entitled to respond.
As far as what a neutral is I could care less, that discussion is old and people will never agree anyhow.
I react that you make an OOC comment about the guild I am member of, calling us unsportsmanlike simply for playing Notum Wars as it is ment to be played.

[Jynne]

OOC:

Same people starting the same arguments about the same subjects over and over again. Is it any wonder I rarely read this board anymore, let alone post anything to it?

Normally I am a pleasant person, and in-character I would probably not say what I am about to. This is my own opinion, and is not the opinion of anyone else in my organization or an indication of our policy. We're a defense-oriented org and rarely participate in attacks except against organizations who have attacked us or our allies in the past, or against Omni towers in "clan homeland" areas. That said:

If you have towers, expect them to be attacked. If you complain about it and start calling out your attackers on the boards, expect to get attacked more, not less. If you lose your towers, take them back.

If you can't defend a base and can't retake the base, your org isn't powerful enough to have that base. Recruit, level, practice, and twink - in short, do your best to become a stronger guild. Set up an effective alliance with other guilds, or merge guilds.

The problem here is: that all requires effort and sacrifice - and too many people aren't willing to put out any effort into getting better or make any sacrifices for other goals. Too many people would rather give up and sit and whine about how unfair it is and that other people should just hand them what they want, instead of being motivated to improve enough to match their rivals and play NW as it was apparently intended to be played.

Argue all you want with that intention and the mechanics it spawned: to Funcom. But don't blame players for playing the game as it is given, don't expect anyone to hand you a tower on a silver platter, don't expect special treatment for being neutral, and don't pick fights that you can't win.

I'm tired of hearing this whine. Boo hoo for you, EO: you picked a fight with a superior force over losing a single base, and they gave you what you asked for. Don't blame them for that.

[Aerinyi]

Originally posted by Uwen


((Ok, my mistake. I replied to, I assumed, an OOC post that was a reply to an OOC post. I was talking OOC. My character doesn't believe the attacks were good, however almost all if not all of the orgs were non-RP orgs. How can you judge the clans by people who don't RP and are most likely clanners because its easier from a gamers point of view? They don't have IC beliefs or politics, the neutrals were closer and had towers and were therefore open season. Then again, when you notice all the fighting going on over towers, you could have probably realised the fighting was going to come your way sooner or later and you can't expect exemption, IC or OOC, if you have towers. And I'm not that way Tif ))

Agreed with regards to RP vs. non-RP orgs, but I suspect we're in the minority given how seriously people have been taking Storm's pseudo-RP lately (not a bash on Storm, just saying they aren't comitted to RP the way a full-blown RP org is).

[Dabblez]

/ooc

Jynne,

I do agree that ooc, if you have towers, you have to expect people will try to take them away from you. That is precisely why ther are only a limited numbers of mines, NW is meant to be competitive.

IC however I don't see what the problem is of making political capital out of events which did occur in game. There is so little story in game, you have to make the most of what does occur.
Being bitterrooc because because you lost your tower might seem petulant, being bitter ic however is a perfectly natural reaction.

[Raveleet]

OOC:

Originally posted by Sumokan
OOC Some people will say it was the clan non rpg orgs that attacked neutral towers. How do you explain the Omni non rpg orgs that did not attack EO and there willingness to enter non aggression treaties? Are the majoirity of Omni just nicer people? What this proved to EO that Clan had the biggest majority of unsportman like people compared to Omnis.

This is what I react to, it is an OOC statement that Clan players, particularly those mentioned in his IC speech (Apocalypse included), are unsportsmanlike.
When infact all we have done is played Notum Wars as it is ment to be played, the fact that Clan attack Neutral more is as easy as location and that clan currently hold the upper hand in Notum Wars.

I do not give a rollerrats tail for how much Sumokan hates clan IC, but this statement is OOC and that makes it harder to just pass me by without making a comment.

[Jynne]

OOC:

Lion's Den took one of your bases in Mort unprovoked.

Then your guild or at least some of its members, came to the boards and provoked the Clans until a bunch of powerful guilds took out your other 4, as I recall

As far as the other tactics - I'd be all for hit and runs and such if you had a reason to do them. But at this point, especially carrying it on for so long, makes it look... for want of a better term, petty and immature.

[Rubel]

Originally posted by Nyadach

You mention independants, yet you utterly ignore the fact these people have taken control of a neutral city and ran it under there own policys when they were never elected, are not accountable to the neutral people, and were not given the rights to take control of the city under any legistration. They took the city and you blame me for saying that the neutral population shouldnt stand for the opression?

Yes, there was no legislation in place to decide who would rule Newland City after it was "given" to the non-sided population. Therefore, any assumed leadership would lack the "right" to such power, and be open to accusations such as yours. Would you prefer the alternative, chaos and anarchy?

It's funny how you espouse the lack of elections as the damning point against this administration. I remember a time when IR was more an enlightened dictatorship under your command than anything else. It's far from the democracy we see in the guild today.

I can remember how you took over IR in order to give the guild some clear leadership. There were no elections, and you made it pretty clear that it was your way or the highway from there on. You did this because IR was turning into an uncontrolled mass at that time, and I supported you, as did most of the "core members" of the guild. But it was far from a democratic process.

When I substitute your name with the NLC council and the guild with NLC in the paragraph above, I see an incredible resemblance to what happened when they took control. If you could do that, why can't they? It seems to me that you're being incredibly hypocritical here.

Originally posted by Nyadach

Well excuse me, isn't it DW policy for an independant Rubi-ka? yet from how you are thinking over the situation in Newland, it would see you don't care what happens to it as long as its go no ties to anything off world, and you have no feeling for the the people who are here and what happens to them?

As I've tried to point out in the case of your own actions, in times of crisis strong and fair leadership by a few is better than indecisive leadership by many. You may note that why DW fight for the freedom of Rubikans to choose their own leaders, we are not a democratic organization ourselves. Democracy is a great goal for the end of a conflict, but a poor way to win through a conflict.

Originally posted by Nyadach

Uh? we own two towers places near to the city. We have people who live and grow up there, and just because you don't see something, does not mean its not there. And yes I have no authority over Newland, then again no one has. And yet again thats my point in this whole thing. NO ONE HAS THAT AUTHORITY!

Yes, you have two towers relatively near the city... which you have held for a few months and a number of weeks, respectively. Some of your members live there, but hardly make up a sizeable part of the population, even if you were speaking for them.

The Council, on the other hand, is composed of the people who were already the most influential in the city, and the only ones with the resources to maintain order and prosperity in the face of adversity. It is not only natural, but commendable, that such people step forward to lead in times of war and strife.

Based on this, I would say that their "authority" to rule stands on much more solid ground than your "authority" to question their rule.

Originally posted by Nyadach

Ok, maybe dictatorship was a bit too strong for them...lets just call them the non elected group who took control of the city without anyone knowing and doing what they like? yep...lots better discription for them :P

Non-elected? Yes, as you were as when you became leader of IR. Took control without anyone knowing? Heh, if you're too busy with the global politics to be bothered to keep up with the local politics of NLC, that's your own fault. Doing what they like? Uhm yeah, I'll refer to your former leadership of IR on that one as well.

Bottom line:

I don't agree with the use of Mercs in NLC. It should have been handled differently. But it might not be worse than the "let's wait and see" policy I'm pretty sure IR would go for. However, you Nyadach need to get off your high horse and leave the holier-than-thou attitude behind. Need I remind you that you are the leader of the first guild (to my knowledge) that ever seized a sided mining base? You're sitting in a glass house throwing rocks... you're the proverbial pot calling the kettle black... etc, etc.

Sincerely,

Vincent "Santorin" Cardinal
Desert Winds

(( Please note that I think Nya and the IR are a great bunch of people, and I've always enjoyed the company of that "old crowd". This is not in any way meant as an attack on them. I just think it's important IC to keep "Lord Dark Helmet" in check. Oh, and sorry for the long-windedness. ))

[Rubel]

Originally posted by Uwen


((Ok, my mistake. I replied to, I assumed, an OOC post that was a reply to an OOC post. I was talking OOC. My character doesn't believe the attacks were good, however almost all if not all of the orgs were non-RP orgs. How can you judge the clans by people who don't RP and are most likely clanners because its easier from a gamers point of view? They don't have IC beliefs or politics, the neutrals were closer and had towers and were therefore open season. Then again, when you notice all the fighting going on over towers, you could have probably realised the fighting was going to come your way sooner or later and you can't expect exemption, IC or OOC, if you have towers. And I'm not that way Tif ))

(( Ok, that clears that up... I just thought it was a strange statement coming from you IC, glad to see my hunch on that was right at least.

As for judging clanners on non-RP orgs... it's a tricky one, but it's impossible to go around roleplaying that certain things don't happen, and that large, politically influential guilds don't exist. If a tower is under attack, should I make a guess whether the attackers are roleplaying or not, and just say "this is not really heppening" if I think they're not?

How do I fit it into my story if an non-RP org (for sake of argument) destroys one my orgs (imaginary) towers... did it just disappear and get replaced by a clan tower without anyone noticing? Did I suddenly die of unknown causes since a non-RP clanner shot me dead?

For me, the only way to keep my characters' evolving story as clear of logical holes as possible, is to take anything that happens as an IC fact, and rather assign IC motivations to the non-RP actions... for example, the attacking clanners believe all neuts are omni lap-dogs, they're acting out of outrage over our official guild policies, etc.

If everybody decides what's real or not for him or herself, then we'll never agree that anything has actually happened, as everyone bring their version to the table. I'm not saying my way is the only way, it's just the only practical way I can deal with it personally.

Oh, and I know there are RP clanners that do have the "if you're not with us you're against us" attitude IC, and I actually find that refreshing... makes it easier to put an IC twist on the actions of non-RP orgs as well. I just didn't believe Uwen was one of them, based on previous statements. ))

[Praecautus]

Originally posted by Rubel



(( Please note that I think Nya and the IR are a great bunch of people, and I've always enjoyed the company of that "old crowd". This is not in any way meant as an attack on them. I just think it's important IC to keep "Lord Dark Helmet" in check. Oh, and sorry for the long-windedness. ))

((the term Dark Helmet is out of date as Nyadach was last seen running around in bits of bronto skin, alas Grey Hood isnt quite the same))

[Serraglio]

Originally posted by Dr Tiny


((the term Dark Helmet is out of date as Nyadach was last seen running around in bits of bronto skin, alas Grey Hood isnt quite the same))

((Gandalf Greyhame maybe?))

[Dabblez]

Originally posted by Rubel


If everybody decides what's real or not for him or herself, then we'll never agree that anything has actually happened, as everyone bring their version to the table. I'm not saying my way is the only way, it's just the only practical way I can deal with it personally.

/ooc
To a degree that will always happen. We are all somewhat selective in what we accept as a real ic experience in AO. That is one of the reasons these ic political discussions never lead anywhere. But I guess the joureny is often more interesting than the destination.

[Nyadach]

Originally posted by Santorin
Yes, there was no legislation in place to decide who would rule Newland City after it was "given" to the non-sided population. Therefore, any assumed leadership would lack the "right" to such power, and be open to accusations such as yours. Would you prefer the alternative, chaos and anarchy?

Actually considering we are just out casts, anarchy and utter choas would work pretty well for us really. Works a charm in Borealis, Last Ditch and Hope doesnt it.

Originally posted by Santorin
It's funny how you espouse the lack of elections as the damning point against this administration. I remember a time when IR was more an enlightened dictatorship under your command than anything else. It's far from the democracy we see in the guild today.

Yes, and how did all that come about? that was a messy time for everyone involved. And in such a time when we were loosing presidents as we were due to the infighting something needed to be done, and it was done for the best of the people. When the problem was solved it went on to how it should always have been, nice orderly choas without the bitching at each other and fights. Tact and subtlety isn't something anyone has ever accused and NT of having. And I most certainly don't deny that it was bad for everyone but out of it came focus, and alot more unity and belief in making things better for everyone.

And what else came from it? ohhh the election system, the length of presidential terms, how advisors and veterens get there positions....order and democracy came out of it. Yes how I got put into that seat was messy, and its was terrible what members had done to the previous president. But it worked out pretty well in the end. And when Yarko was elected, that I might add as really the first properly elected leader, it was a great day for us.

Originally posted by Santorin
Yes, you have two towers relatively near the city... which you have held for a few months and a number of weeks, respectively. Some of your members live there, but hardly make up a sizeable part of the population, even if you were speaking for them.

Actually...the main base is what we got first day when the ICC opened up mining. Short of infultrating and taking over Clon**** don't think we could have had an older mine....not like its profitable since it doesnt do a great deal of anything...but well, its there and I know many members like having it so thats good for them.

Originally posted by Santorin
The Council, on the other hand, is composed of the people who were already the most influential in the city, and the only ones with the resources to maintain order and prosperity in the face of adversity. It is not only natural, but commendable, that such people step forward to lead in times of war and strife.

So in the same sense your also saying that since OT-RK has been so influentail over all of RK, and are the only ones with the true resources to maintain order and prosperity over the planet. You fully commend them for there leadership also? Ohhh sure your in DW and not Omni-pol?

Originally posted by Santorin
Yes, as you were as when you became leader of IR. Took control without anyone knowing?

Didn't what actually happen, the bit where when I was given the seat as a "temporary" measure also state that we would also if necessary go to elections later on? and also follow up with said elections?

Originally posted by Santorin
Need I remind you that you are the leader of the first guild (to my knowledge) that ever seized a sided mining base?

Yes, and that was a huge mistake. And due to it huge changes had to be made in policy, which resulted in the guild law of no member being able to assist in any attacks and that we can defend only.

Originally posted by Santorin
You're sitting in a glass house throwing rocks... you're the proverbial pot calling the kettle black... etc, etc.

And I have to refer you back to the bit earlier about OT-RK...sounds awefully familiar doesnt it?

[Nyadach]

Originally posted by Dr Tiny
((the term Dark Helmet is out of date as Nyadach was last seen running around in bits of bronto skin, alas Grey Hood isnt quite the same))

As a matter of fact I don't even own a bronto hood....hoods dont work well with me. And before I get any more bald jokes its intentional! it keeps my nanites cool ALRIGHT!?

[Praecautus]

ok Kojak