Where Do the Clans Stand?

[UwensBack]

The main topic will be the absence of Omni-Prime help with the growing clan and neutral issue

Isn´t it fun when people who didn´t even attend at the meeting says that we was talking about the "clan and neutral threat" when the subject wasn´t even brought up once.

Are you stupid, lying, or perhaps just unproductive at meetings? Perhaps all three?

[Dabblez]

Originally posted by Ariekel
((OOC: Edited because I'm an idiot and forgot that Savoy is actually Dabblez now. ))

/ooc

Actually you were right first time :-) They are both my characters. This was posted as Savoy, who is an political analyst. By contrast Dabblez has no interest in politcs as she is way to busy trying to run her company and make ends meet. I do try to remember to sign posts that come from on character or the other, but I sometimes forget.

[Aerinyi]

((OOC: Arrgghh, I can't win! Going back to re-edit now... and here I thought Savoy was retired for good. ))

[Dabblez]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate


If it hasn't happened in the last 30 seconds then it doesn't count, right? That kind of attitude suits your position quite well.

Likewise holding a grudge for events that happened 200 years ago seems a little churlish.

[Aerinyi]

Way to nicely sidestep the point, Savoy. His point isn't about whether Bob the Random Clan Janitor of Tir Backyard 13 is still angry that his daddy's daddy's daddy's daddy's daddy was in some past civil war, it's about whether Omni is still a threat to the clans today. The answer is obviously yes, if for no other reason than Chimera's attacks on clan and neutral citizens and the various attacks on the mining operations of peaceful clans.

You condemn Storm for their attack, and maybe you're right to do so. But you have no right to lay that responsibility on all the clans. We are independent entities who are only united in our defense of clan territory and treaties and alliances drawn up between individual clans. It's not a matter of clan violence being treated as "boys will be boys" or whatever, it's a matter of responsibility. The other clans are no more responsible for Storm's actions than you are for Sol Banking's actions. If you want peace, talk with the clans that want peace. If you want to resolve the problem with Storm, deal with Storm. Don't come to us expecting us to do something about Storm, and don't insult our intelligence by expecting us to believe that Chimera invited you to a meeting far from the prying ears of Omni-1 to discuss peace with the clans.

((OOC: Sorry about the shifting speech pattern... Arie has a particular way of speaking, but reading my previous posts it just seems stupid for her to write phonetically.))

[______________Jypsie]

You condemn Storm for their attack, and maybe you're right to do so. But you have no right to lay that responsibility on all the clans. We are independent entities who are only united in our defense of clan territory and treaties and alliances drawn up between individual clans. It's not a matter of clan violence being treated as "boys will be boys" or whatever, it's a matter of responsibility. The other clans are no more responsible for Storm's actions than you are for Sol Banking's actions. If you want peace, talk with the clans that want peace. If you want to resolve the problem with Storm, deal with Storm. Don't come to us expecting us to do something about Storm, and don't insult our intelligence by expecting us to believe that Chimera invited you to a meeting far from the prying ears of Omni-1 to discuss peace with the clans.

Omni-Tek Rubi-Ka can not, and refuses to deal with the myriad of Clans as they currently exist. They are too many, too chaotic and too unorganised. We respected the Council of Truth because they were a united presence. With the desolution of the Council, came the lack of contol and the breakdown in communication. You can not control yourselves and therefore we can not have meaningful relations.

Omni-Tek will deal with one United Clan enitity, but not 1000 Clans screaming for attention.

[Cogs]

Well, Jypsie, you cry for united clans before you wish to enter into peace talks, and in the same breath try to give us the impression that Omni-Tek is a united entitiy.....what a joke. Dont make demands upon clan unity, one of our strong points is that we are diverse, and in many ways use this to our advantage. In addition, we are free spirits, and accept the fact that we are diverse, even though unity in cause is much more present than you seem to understand. Omni-Tek however is like an infected cesspool of internal strife...and you cannot even see it. The Clans more or less know where we are going, Omni-Tek seem to me at this time to be just excactly what you accuse the clanners of being...a disorganiized mess. So, clean up your own backyard...

As for the Storm attack on the Omni-Tek leaders meeting...hmm..well..I am no advocate for violence, but it seems to me that Chimera planned for this to happen..probably to use it in some twisted propaganda drive..."Look, good people of OT, Claners are evil"....but, it backfired, and again causes more internal Omni-Tek strife.
Then again, my personal feeling, is that perhaps it would have been better if we hadnt fallen for this clear invitation....for that is what it was.....and stayed away. In fact, we are now in a position where it no longer is necessary to use brute force to show who is at the steering wheel, and falling for such a clear propaganda ploy might have been an unwise move.
Nevertheless, I still remember the CCL meeting we had in Wine, when the gas was different.....who came to spiff up that party, but Omni-Tek...mercilessly slaughtering the Clan Leaders.....
As Cemeterygate said....anything older than 30 seconds....

Anthony "Cogs" McDuff
President Rubi-Ka Freedom Fighters

[Dabblez]

Let me put it this way, I know that had the opposite that occurred, had clan leaders been targeted by OT extremists, I would have been horrified and I would not be afraid of being vocal about it. I was hoping that among the regular, decent clanners there would be those who felt the same.

I see instead that any the words of condemnation for this vile act of terror come with qualifications, almost grudgingly. Worse still, many seem to be so entrenched in their belief that OT can do no good and Clan can do no wrong that even when Omni-Tek is the victim of an atrocity, such as the Omni-1 apartment block bombing or the May Day Massacre, they have the audacity, and may I say insensitivity, to claim OT engineered these events, despite this defies all logic and despite a complete lack of evidence. So Omni-Tek has taken to kill its own people just to make the clans look bad? How vain and self-absorbed a theory is that?

And the end of the day none of this matters. I just hope I never get to the point where I lose my objectivity and ability to empathise with all humans, not just those on my side. It was not just Chimera at the meeting who were killed; there were a lot of good people there too, some of them specifically there to counter balance the extremists.

Savoy

[Cogs]

Well, Savoy...as I have said so many times before, the RKFF view is to battle the Omni-Tek ideology, not the people. We strongly beleive that there is good in every man and woman, and every child. The problem those supporting mr. Ross and the OT doctrine has, is that you are so grossly mislead. One day you will see this.....until then, Im afraid the violence will continue, whether we like it or not. I said it in my previous post, and I state it again: I am no advocate for violence.

Anthony "Cogs" McDuff
President Rubi-Ka Freedom Fighters

[UwensBack]

Omni-Tek can do no good

Aside from providing billions upon billions of jobs and homes for their employees.

Clans can do no wrong.

Aside from attacking neutrals because they're closer and easier.

I'm not saying, not by a long shot, that OmniTek is all good or the clans are all bad. There are good and bad in both. I merely did this in hopes to help to dispel the belief that clanners think OmniTek can do no good and the Clans can do no bad. They can, and have, both done good and bad.

That said, I am personally glad that a Chimera member was killed, however brutally. Having come under attack from Chimera more than once, I would think you would feel the same. Perhaps, though, some of the other deaths I am not so thrilled about. And yes, it will come, for better or for worse, with qualifications. From a military standpoint, it was a tactical opportunity that was taken advantage of. From a political standpoint, it could be said to make clanners look more like terrorists. Weighing the two, in the long run the politics of a given time are more important. Therefore, I condemn it. I hope that, in the future, heads of OmniTek departments may have more intelligence and experience to know to hold their meetings somewhere safe and if they must hold them in a lowered suppression zone, that they not announce it, publicly, weeks ahead of time.

[didymus]

I wish I had been there as well, really.

[Cemetarygate]

Originally posted by Savoy
Likewise holding a grudge for events that happened 200 years ago seems a little churlish.

This attack had nothing to do with events that happened 200 years ago.

Perhaps, if you took the time to understand what clans are fighting for then you would better understand why clans promote and perform any political or military actions

Originally posted by Savoy
Worse still, many seem to be so entrenched in their belief that OT can do no good and Clan can do no wrong that even when Omni-Tek is the victim of an atrocity, such as the Omni-1 apartment block bombing or the May Day Massacre, they have the audacity, and may I say insensitivity, to claim OT engineered these events, despite this defies all logic and despite a complete lack of evidence. So Omni-Tek has taken to kill its own people just to make the clans look bad? How vain and self-absorbed a theory is that?

Everyone knows Omni-Tek engineered this event. To state otherwise is either pure ignorance on your part or you've taken to insulting our intelligence.

Bottom line, those that planned this event are just as guilty for master minding the event. However, considering the plan mostly went off without a hitch, as I don't think they planned on having their arses handed to them on a silver plater (kudos to Storm), I hightly doubt those that master minded this will admit to anything other than name, rank and serial number when questioned.

[Aerinyi]

Originally posted by Savoy
Let me put it this way, I know that had the opposite that occurred, had clan leaders been targeted by OT extremists, I would have been horrified and I would not be afraid of being vocal about it. I was hoping that among the regular, decent clanners there would be those who felt the same.

I see instead that any the words of condemnation for this vile act of terror come with qualifications, almost grudgingly. Worse still, many seem to be so entrenched in their belief that OT can do no good and Clan can do no wrong that even when Omni-Tek is the victim of an atrocity, such as the Omni-1 apartment block bombing or the May Day Massacre, they have the audacity, and may I say insensitivity, to claim OT engineered these events, despite this defies all logic and despite a complete lack of evidence. So Omni-Tek has taken to kill its own people just to make the clans look bad? How vain and self-absorbed a theory is that?

And the end of the day none of this matters. I just hope I never get to the point where I lose my objectivity and ability to empathise with all humans, not just those on my side. It was not just Chimera at the meeting who were killed; there were a lot of good people there too, some of them specifically there to counter balance the extremists.

Savoy

How "vocal" have you been about Chimera's unprovoked attacks on us, outside of Omni-Tek territory? Not enough I think, because it hasn't done us a lick of good. But if it'll make you happy, fine. If this truly was not a council of war then I condemn it. Storm did wrong. Now try to understand how the dubious nature of this meeting (outside the supervision of Omni-Tek higher ups, called by an org at war with clans and neutrals for the explicit purpose of dealing with the the clan and neutral "issue"), along with the fact that Omni has done jack lately for peace with the clans, makes it awefully difficult to believe that this meeting's purpose was anything other than to gather allies for the war on neutrals and the clans. Which again, I haven't heard you protesting. Put up or shut up. We (speaking only of Whisper's Edge and the other Endgame clans) have extended a more or less perpetual olive branch in our policy of nonviolence toward peaceful Omni-Tek employees, even as we are attacked by extremist Omni orgs. If you expect us to believe that you don't support those extremists and truly want peace, you have to actually do something about it. Send an ambassador. Send several. Don't try to hide behind retroactive claims that you've opposed orgs like Chimera all along, because you simply have given us no reason to believe you. Give us that reason, or stop wasting our time. Accusatory words on a grid forum don't cut it.

[_____________Daetona]

Quote ::

"Then again, my personal feeling, is that perhaps it would have been better if we hadnt fallen for this clear invitation....for that is what it was.....and stayed away. In fact, we are now in a position where it no longer is necessary to use brute force to show who is at the steering wheel, and falling for such a clear propaganda ploy might have been an unwise move. "
________________________________________


Seems to me the location chosen was to demonstrate this specific Clan's willingness to resort to violence, not out of ignorance. They knew where they where, and they knew the risks. We're talking about men and women who organize large amounts of people here.

"A Propaganda Tool" ? Not any more than when some Clanners threw an underground party in Omni-Territory, then cried foul when Omni-Forces busted it, and sent people back to Reclaim... They too knew what they where getting themselves into, and payed for their statement in blood.

I think their sub-motives where clear enough. Find out which Clans are for a peaceful solution, which follow violence as their guide, and which practice one, and preach the other... and they succeeded. The lines have become a bit more clear.

[Dabblez]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate


This attack had nothing to do with events that happened 200 years ago.

Perhaps, if you took the time to understand what clans are fighting for then you would better understand why clans promote and perform any political or military actions

Believe me, I have tried to understand what the Clans are fighting for but I to no avail. As far as I can see you won, you have your independence. You have plenty of land, wealth and autonomy. Surely you don't need to rule the whole planet to be happy?

Most of the times it just seems to me that we are fighting you because you are fighting us and vice versa and neither side has the courage to let go. It is as if we were living in a dark, absurd comedy with no rhyme or reason. Ross tried to break this viscous cycle - not becasue he is a saintly figure, but simply becasue it was the rational thing to do. He instituted the Amnesty, the CoT soon followed suit and for a short while there seemed to be hope. Unfortunately there are forces at work who for their own selfish reasons do not want peace and the process was derailed.

And Ariekel, the SRS does not have armies, towers, ambassadors or any sort of mandate to negotiate peace. We are just a small private philanthropic society. I started this discussion just as a matter of personal interest, and as such I may have indeed been wasting everyone's time. For that I do appologise.

Savoy

[Benmor]

As a humble bystander witnessing day to day life on Rubi-Ka I confess to being utterly confused by this discussion.

People call me and others like me neutral. Neutral in what? Neutral in the war between OT and The Clans.

An act of war has been executed by a faction who is in a state of war on another faction with whom they are at war....

The sooner you two 'sides' can finish your war (by miltary means or through diplomacy), the sooner Rubi-Ka can get its economy back in line.

Many reactions are valid to an action like this when you are at war... but "How dare you shoot at me?" doesn't seem a reasonable one to me.

I have not heard of any cease fire.

Either fight until one side gains victory or get round a table and find a peaceful solution...

[Cogs]

So, Daetona....the fact remains that organizations on both sides retort to such methods. I claimed not that Omni was the only side to utilize these ploys. It is a given that in any conflict the opposing sides will use whatever means seem opportune to them to gain an upper hand. I will go so far as to say I dont think either side is any better than the other when it comes to how we conduct the war. There will always be extreme factions on either side of any conflict. Such is the face of war, and any actor plays his part, be it good or bad.

Savoy, I think many feel like you do...why are we even fighting anymore...I need sit down in my apt tonight, and think about that.

Anthony "Cogs" McDuff
President Rubi-Ka Freedom Fighters

[Cemetarygate]

Originally posted by Savoy
Believe me, I have tried to understand what the Clans are fighting for but I to no avail. As far as I can see you won, you have your independence.

In the eyes of Omni-Tek clans are still considered criminals for rebelling against the corporation. Omni-Tek law states that, given the opportunity, clans are to be arrested and thrown in jail for violating this law. If we are truely independent, then why are we still seen as criminals and face incarceration? How come Omni-Tek does not recognize us as being independent of the corporation and remove this law from their records?

Originally posted by Savoy
You have plenty of land, wealth and autonomy. Surely you don't need to rule the whole planet to be happy?

If you don't know enough about clans to understand what we're fighting for what makes you an authority to state we have "plenty of land, wealth and autonomy?"

The fact of the matter is that many clans are still out of work and desire land for mining facilities.

[Dabblez]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate


In the eyes of Omni-Tek clans are still considered criminals for rebelling against the corporation. Omni-Tek law states that, given the opportunity, clans are to be arrested and thrown in jail for violating this law. If we are truely independent, then why are we still seen as criminals and face incarceration? How come Omni-Tek does not recognize us as being independent of the corporation and remove this law from their records?

And given half a chance, Clan guards will gun down any Omni and in some towns even Neutral citizens. These are consequences of the conflict, not the cause.

If you don't know enough about clans to understand what we're fighting for what makes you an authority to state we have "plenty of land, wealth and autonomy?"

The fact of the matter is that many clans are still out of work and desire land for mining facilities.

So, what you are suggesting is if a clan wants more land, they should just come take it from Omni? That is no longer called a war for independnece, that is called a war of conquest.

[Aerinyi]

Originally posted by Savoy
Most of the times it just seems to me that we are fighting you because you are fighting us and vice versa and neither side has the courage to let go. It is as if we were living in a dark, absurd comedy with no rhyme or reason. Ross tried to break this viscous cycle - not becasue he is a saintly figure, but simply becasue it was the rational thing to do. He instituted the Amnesty, the CoT soon followed suit and for a short while there seemed to be hope. Unfortunately there are forces at work who for their own selfish reasons do not want peace and the process was derailed.

We agree on something then, anyway. Damned shame Ross isn't around now, or isn't getting his way running OT-RK, or whatever. He could've done a lot to achieve peace had he been allowed to do things his way, I bet.