Crits are too darn easy

[Gunnandahalf]

it would be intresting setting up a poll about this.... if there is one then oops...

but yes it sucks when a crit buff can make anyone beat you even if they are 80 levels below you on just luck..

the guns usually say 25-300 not 25-1950...

[binaural]

yep crits gotta go, my meta has 4.7k AC and basically this is how a fight goes with basically ANYONE with a shottty or basically a gun of any type.

/me sees "trader with shotty"

/pet attack

"trader with shotty hit you for 44 points or energy damage"

"trader with shotty hit you for 44 points or energy damage"

"trader with shotty hit you for 44 points or energy damage"

"trader with shotty hit you for 1012 points of energy damage"

you were healed by belamorte for 700 points of health

"trader with shotty hit you for 1012 points of energy damage"

heal stim you were healed for 620 points of health.

"trader with shotty hit you for 1012 points of energy damage"

you were healed by belamorte for 550 points of health

"trader with shotty hit you for 1012 points of energy damage"

and maybe.. you were healed by belamorte for 600 points of health

"trader with shotty hit you for 1012 points of energy damage"

dead.

meanwhile demon is rooted btw : )


same routien with soldiers. docs with shotty's nt's with guns.. anyone.

i got loit of ip into evades.. i can see it work on mobs.. but not pvp.

[_______________Garzu]

Have to say you lasted long against that trader

[44formula44]

Crits arent the problem. Its Evades.

When you have a QL190+ Scope and LMA 15%+19% = 34%

1 out of 3 shots you are gonna be hit with a crit. 5 out of 12 hits where crits in that guys last posts which is about 41%. A little inflated over the 34%. If the person he even fought had a Ql190 scope and LMA =p


But if it did a check against your evades that number should be reduced. But evades are useless. Fix evades first then see how crits play out before you call for a crit nerf.

Because if you nerf crits your gonna hear a whole lot of grief from higher lvl players because w/o crits your screwed trying to lvl in any descent amount of time. Imagine trying to lvl doing average damage to over powered NPCs as it is.

[__________starknaked]

If crits overall were nerfed, then Funcom should do an IP reset and let us reassign our IP points.

Because many of us have designed our characters around using weapons which rely on crits to do decent damage. Every high level agent in the game, practically, has their shotgun skill maxxed so they can use the ranee or use a shotgun. This means they've wasted hundreds of thousands of IP points on shotgun skill.

If not for frequent crits, this would not have been worth it and they could have just stuck with a pure agent rifle.

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Spyder9
Crits arent the problem. Its Evades.

When you have a QL190+ Scope and LMA 15%+19% = 34%

1 out of 3 shots you are gonna be hit with a crit. 5 out of 12 hits where crits in that guys last posts which is about 41%. A little inflated over the 34%. If the person he even fought had a Ql190 scope and LMA =p

Wrong!Yeah, first of all, you speak of LMA + Scope = 34% chance of crit... that is wrong, because with out any of those crit enhancing buffs/items you have a chance of critting too.... Because ppl do crit even without those buffs/items... ANd that is where the AMS comes in to play, if you have high AMS, you get bigger chance to crit, even without those crit buffs/items, if you have higher AMS than opponents DMS, you will crit ALOT more often, if your AMS is lower than opponents DMS (which NTs has) your chance of crits get MUCH MUCH lower... and the chance for totally missing the target (no dmg) is pretty high.

Small note to Sent, this post is copied and pasted from the NT forum.

[Megabio]

Of curse UVC is +24% chance.. QL 200 scope.. that's +15%.. 39% crit chance.. There is also the 'supposed' 3% crit chance; along with whatever attack skills it is. So in all reality it is 42%+ chance of a crit. With attack skill above evades, it is probably possible to get a 50% chance of a crit. Every other hit a crit. Always nice.
~Chris

[assassimon]

I wouldn't even consider doing any PvP without a crit buff, but if they change/balance/nerf/redo the crit system, they also need to take a look at the weapons that do close to no damage at all without crit.

But I agree, PvP is mostly about who hit first and are lucky with crits

[___________Obergeist]

If you're going to nerf crit buffs to make evades work, you'll have to nerf the entire database and NERF the mobs to hell.

Evades do work at lower levels, my lowbie 17 MA has 30 ql evade/dodge/duck implants and maxed ip wise evades and I typically get hit once or twice against an orange mob for min damage.

However, my soldier has a huge attack rating, and nearly maxed evades, and of course even with implants and NT's Dark Movement (yet to find a better overall evade buff) my evades are pale to my attack rating.

I don't mind people dying fast in PvP, it's war.

However, you can't make changes to PvP without drastically effecting PvM (which is what most people do).

If these changes where to come about, other skills, such as Riposte and Parry would probably be more viable as well.

Currently, in PvP, it's all about crit buffs, attack rating, and who hits first. This is probably one of the better thought out threads instead of NERF NERF crits.

[______________Takuan]

I'm not to sure about this if AMS is higher you crit more. At 165 self buffed I have a melee attack rating of 945(rondabout) and yet I hit minimum alot in PVP. Yes I know there is a Min damage bug that's supposed to change in 13.8.

Point is that I doubt many people in this game have as high as high evades as I do AMS, so if this did work like you say I should crit like crazy with LMA or UVC in PVP combat. I should still see min damage due to the bug but should only see it rarely. This is just not what happens from my last few pvp fights I had.

I figure that if I fight a lower level enforcer I should be doing 40-50% crits or better with this logic. In actuality I see 20% crits. Are we sure this works like that?

[______________Yazule]

AMS and DMS

gimme some links that describe it in detail will you.

I hear about it, still dont make sense to me, arent they just evades and inits?

[___________Obergeist]

I've heard two different stories about crits...
Base crit chance from what I hear is 3% and you get modifiers to up them, buffs, low light target scope, etc. Attack Rating doesn't effect this.

The other arguement is that your Attack Rating does indeed boost your chance to crit. I can't comment on this, but it feels to me that your Attack Rating is more of a damage evener. However alot of folks say that a higher attack Rating does indeed do so...

Where do evades factor in here? They DO work, my NT bud bumped up his evades to 300 and he says he lasts longer if he catches aggro... and when I put in evade implants a while back, the damage done to me indeed went down. But up against a crit buff... evades seem worthless.

Nerf everything so no one will notice. Less hp/ac in mobs, less need for crits.

[_______________Chill]

The solution is simple:
No bonus from crit buffs and items in pvp.
Make them only work in pvm.

Problem solved.

And the chance to crit without a buff in pvp is still high as mentioned in the AMS vs DMS posts above.

[assassimon]

Originally posted by Danae
The solution is simple:
No bonus from crit buffs and items in pvp.
Make them only work in pvm.

Problem solved.

And the chance to crit without a buff in pvp is still high as mentioned in the AMS vs DMS posts above.

It's not really that easy, almost all NTs, MPs, doc, engis, crats, many agents and maybe more have inveted alot of points into shotgun, we can't get AMS that high so we almost always hit for min damage except when we crit.

So if they remove crit in PvP they will make all these profs useless in PvP, with a IP wipe or maybe a change in shotguns so we actual can do ok damage can change the problem, but it have to come before they do anything for shotguns, else they will lose way to many customers and I think that's a very big problem

[___________Obergeist]

The fact they are relying on shotties instead of their own innate abilities in PvP should be a warning sign...

I've read somewhere that with equal evades and equal attack rating, the chance of a hit is exactly 75%... can't find an exact link though, so I don't know if this info is trustworthy.

Each class has it's strengths and flaws. If a character is equiped to PvP, I don't see why they shouldn't have reasonable victory/defeat ratings. Docs with DoTs,init debuffs, very good hp buffs.. Traders with the best debuffing skills in the whole game.. NTs with a large selection of NFs to use, root, nuke, AoE, humid,stun...
Crats with a pet (useless against rooting through), useful aura debuffs(10 thumbs anyone?), mezs that have a PvP effect, roots..
Fixers with speed(good luck getting close in an open area), run debuffs that are to the point where you're faster walking, and for the really, really (stand up you three on RK2 ) lucky Fixers, Grid Armor... MPs with three pets(!?), strong direct damage nukes, stun(nail that NT )...
Enforcers, MAs, Soldiers, already know the strong areas and weak...
Can't comment on Engies, haven't seen any that (seriously) PvP. The creator of the bot is rather soft, and goes down hard and the Bot itself usually stops attacking.

Let us move all our characters to test and try it out! I don't want to go through the headache of leveling another character on another god forsaken server.

Off topic, make max range roughly 60 meters and make roots break on any damage after the root is cast. NT/Fixer/Trader/Agent/Crat can move out of melee range and attack, reroot again.

Give MA's some form of root breaking, like a Martial Arts skill that breaks roots.

[assassimon]

The fact they are relying on shotties instead of their own innate abilities in PvP should be a warning sign...

I assume you mean that a NT, MPs and all other profs in the other post I wrote shouldn't use a shotgun?

Who said that they only should use nukes, pets and NFs?

They have a blue weapon skills so they don't get it as high as weapon only profs so they already do lower damage, but I see it more like every prof should use a weapon, I can't kill anyone with only nukes and a pet(atleast not if he is fighting back) so I just see it as FC also thought that everyone should use a weapon.

Some profs have nukes/pets to use with the weapon so they do equal amount of damage as those that only have a weapon.

[Adjust]

Well from that , in most aboslutley rubbish official stradgey guide, sorry but it's true it says : 3% bas chance of crit + 1% more for every 10% attack skill is better than def skill. I.e. Trader has drained to have a 1000 attack rating, opponent follishly has not raised duck for a while and is at 200. Attack skill is 400% better than def skill, translates to a 50% chance of a crit. Trader also has UV and 15% scope. So 3% + 40% + 15% + 24% = 82% chance of crit. I can only smile as i am sure this has actually happened many times

OK i'll use a "real" example i PVP a guy called Livewired on rbk2(i will state mine, and most of the rest of rbk2s opnion of him ). This will be based both on guess work and knowledge. Live does not fight without UVC, and his attack rating i guess to be about 850, while my duck is about 500. His attack rating is 170% of my def, and thuslyy 70% higher translating to a 7% chance of a crit. So 3% + 15+ (i am assuming top scope) + 24 + 7 = 49%. Even in a evenish fight with a opponent with a reasonable duck thats basically 1 in 2 crits. FC this is surely an oversight? Maybe this was to keep mas in demand, well now that they are gonna be fixed make crit buffs self only and lets have some fights that last longer than 5 shots

1 other thing i would like to say is have people noticed the probability distribution of crits ? Mine do NOT fall evenly, i'll go say 10-12 shots with no crit then get like 3 in a row. This makes the situation even worse as the dmg is even more concetrated.

Qwerty1 RBk2-the forgotten world

[_______________Chill]

Originally posted by Azzazzimon


It's not really that easy, almost all NTs, MPs, doc, engis, crats, many agents and maybe more have inveted alot of points into shotgun, we can't get AMS that high so we almost always hit for min damage except when we crit.

So if they remove crit in PvP they will make all these profs useless in PvP, with a IP wipe or maybe a change in shotguns so we actual can do ok damage can change the problem, but it have to come before they do anything for shotguns, else they will lose way to many customers and I think that's a very big problem

There are several shotguns with a high base damage which don't hit for min vs high AC. They may be slower but that's the case for all hard hitting weapon types.
For example : vektor ND shotgun, home defender, blackhole, police shotgun. 700 attack rating (below the max for a dark blue implanted shotgun skill) with a QL200 from this list and you pierce through 7k+ AC which is more than any player will ever have.
All you'll have to do is to use one of those and your ip won't be wasted.

My old soldier was using shotguns (I stopped at lvl 94 and never used a novaflow once) with around 500 attack rating and was doing very well in pvp without any crit buff vs players 30 lvl higher. I had 8 different shotgun types hotkeyed to switch to the best suited for the current situation and to do that overequipping wasn't an option.
Now take the other professions you mentioned, nothing prevents them from doing the same and they also have extra ways of doing damage and protecting themselves (nanos, pets, heals, ...) to make up for a slightly lower attack rating (120 less attack rating at lvl 200 between a green and dark blue weapon skill).
That's why I disagree with what you said.

[assassimon]

Originally posted by Danae


There are several shotguns with a high base damage which don't hit for min vs high AC. They may be slower but that's the case for all hard hitting weapon types.
For example : vektor ND shotgun, home defender, blackhole, police shotgun. 700 attack rating (below the max for a dark blue implanted shotgun skill) with a QL200 from this list and you pierce through 7k+ AC which is more than any player will ever have.
All you'll have to do is to use one of those and your ip won't be wasted.

My old soldier was using shotguns (I stopped at lvl 94 and never used a novaflow once) with around 500 attack rating and was doing very well in pvp without any crit buff vs players 30 lvl higher. I had 8 different shotgun types hotkeyed to switch to the best suited for the current situation and to do that overequipping wasn't an option.
Now take the other professions you mentioned, nothing prevents them from doing the same and they also have extra ways of doing damage and protecting themselves (nanos, pets, heals, ...) to make up for a slightly lower attack rating (120 less attack rating at lvl 200 between a green and dark blue weapon skill).
That's why I disagree with what you said.

Cool, I have a Vektor Dragon, or maybe 2, but in PvP you need specials too, atleast as it is now.

But thanks for the post, gonna check on some new shotties

[______________Yazule]

actually I have a trader with a vek but he is only 40ish. No hp buffs, no crit buffs, that decent non crit damage rocks. There are few NON TRADERS OR DOCS that can kill him. Actually even docs have a hard time. The char is designed to kill doc's. With another trader, first to sack wins, end of story.

You dont NEED specials, my enforcer (rookie) uses a beam, no specials. I dont consider brawl a special fyi.