Discuss: 13.8 Martial Artist changes

[DaveDread]

Earlier in this thread a few suggestions of new MA nanos came up. I searched around the various forums and here are a few suggestions that doesn't seem totally out of whack for me:

* Enhance the Crash of Thunder line with a boost to agg/def.

MA's, more then any class, rely on speed. Yet we have no option other then "Flurry of blows" to break the 1.0/1.0 attack barrier that most of us reach at lvl 20ish. This will perhaps make it more useful at higher lvls and will make the "controlled force of destruction" desciption a bit more correct.


* Continue the Personal Healing nano line.

I don't wanna step on the doc turf, but our healing capability isnt quite up to speed, is it? Better versions of the self-only healing nano would make us happy. And the docs i hope.


* Continue the Give Health/Energy nano lines.

Here's an option on making this funny little nano line useful. Continue it. If I was able to slam 1000 health into the dying doc I'd be a happy MA. If I was able to fill the NT's nano pool I'd be a happy MA. The matter meta leap from "Muscle Boost" to "Cohort" is over 300 skill points. You could fit a few nanos in there and perhaps diversify MA's a bit.


* Create an opposite version of "Crash of Thunder"

MA's have a taunting line of nanos, which to me means that we should have tanking capabilities. Enforcers can take the damage, Soldiers can shield it, MA's should perhaps avoid it? Our green evades leads to that conclusion. How about a nano line that gave a short term big boost to evades/nanoresist? Would make things a bit more interesting then watching the recharge bar on heals slowly creep backwards. A MA version of Grid armour perhaps?


* Create a meditation line of nanos.

Doc's have a splendid (but non-working) nano called Epsilon Purge. It removes hostile nanoprograms from your NCU. How about giving us MA's an equivalent? Self-only, remove hostile nanos, enhance healing and nano regeneration. We are utterly useless in combat when rooted/debuffed and it would be splendid from a role-playing perspective.


* Create a nano line that helps us against damage shields.

Personally, when I go up against an opponent with damage shield running i stop fighting. I'll hurt myself more then him. This might be helped a bit with the upped fist damage, but fast hitters like MA's really take a pounding against these. I don't have any good ideas on how to do this, but we have no viable strategy against damage shields. (except team up with an engineer, and blyme, they are all running AC boot nanos instead!)


* Continue the MA/Brawl buff lines.

The +140 MA nano Four Fists of Kali isn't that impressive. Though I have no personal experience of it, the general concensus among high level MA's seems to be that we need a heavier MA buff to help against those pesky title caps. Our damage stops at a title cap, and our fists aren't QL200 weapons like everybody else has. THe +45 Brawl seems a bit low for being a max buff in my opinion.


* Create a Greater Controlled Rage nano.

Well, there is a lesser controlled rage, why not a greater? Boost to MA and Phys Init, and perhaps stackable with First Strike nano?
I never use First strike since it brings my damage output down and pure inits wont help me any.


* Fix up the Cohort and Horde nanos.

I personally love these, I was giggling with joy when I saw them the first time, my mind filled with a "Ninja Death Squad" vision of 6 MA's tearing up the opposition. Perhaps make more like these? Increase Inits/Evades/whathaveya..? Anyway, broken they are. These should be fixed in 13.8.

Thanks for your time.
/DaveDread

[inanout]

#1. Why can't they keep Attack of the snake and the rest of the special attack skills seperate?

Meaning if I use bird of prey.. I can not use attack of the snake.. let us use both!


#2 Why can't you make the Bow and arrow better? A main MA weapon should be the staff, Bow, fist anf maybe a sword.. But right now the bow sucks.. Fix it plz

[assassimon]

#1. Why can't they keep Attack of the snake and the rest of the special attack skills seperate?

Meaning if I use bird of prey.. I can not use attack of the snake.. let us use both!

This could never happend, it's like you would have 7 or how many it is specials..start of with a Shen, BwT, AoS,BoP,AoN, don't even remember the rest.

Would be unbalancing, but maybe they can shorter recharge so it's possible to use more in a single fight.

[-Zagadka-]

Originally posted by Szentisha

- Fix evades. Evades don't work that well, and it is hard to tell when they are working. My evades are maxed at lvl 58, and it doesn't make the difference I would hope for.

- Lower recharge time on healing nanos. The time required to wait after casting a healing nanos is much to long.

- Add nanos. When the other professions are given some lovin, they usually get some new nanos to broaden their usefullness. Why not us?

- Fix bows. Bows never worked right. They are buggy, have outrageous requirements, don't hold enough ammo, and arrows cost too much.

- Fix the minimum damage problem. Note that this is not just an MA problem. Other classes (most notably Adventurers) are also having difficulties in this area.

- Szentasha / Unity of the Rose/ 58 Martial Artist
http://www.darksphere.com/uor

Evades- Agree completely. At the VERY LEAST, some feedback like "You evaded the attack" to let you see how effective it is.

Recharge time on healing nanos- I'm a Doc/MA. Being that, I fully see the reason there is a recharge delay on healing; My cast time for a ql80 heal is about, oh, .25 seconds (you get the idea, I won't go into specifics), and my NanoC Init isn't even nearly maxed. The delay is hte 2 second recharge - and that is what keeps me from chain healing 2400 hp in a second. The problem is less apparant for MAs, whose healing power is about 75% of that of a Doc of the same level and who usually don't raise NanoC Init, but it would lead to an exploit of the system for the people who DID raise NanoC init, and would be outhealing Docs EASILY (before the uber-high levels, at least).

Add nanos- No. The character description for MAs is that they rely as little on technology as possible, focusing on the spirit/soul.

Bows- w00t

Min damage- w00t w00t. This frustrates the hell out of me. I much prefer monster mob missions. I can outheal most of their higher damage, they drop ever-so-lovely monster parts, AND I deal almost TWICE as much damage to them as I do to human mobs.

[-Zagadka-]

Originally posted by DaveDread

* Continue the Personal Healing nano line.

I don't wanna step on the doc turf, but our healing capability isnt quite up to speed, is it? Better versions of the self-only healing nano would make us happy. And the docs i hope.

Glad to see that you don't want to step on our toes... Thank god that you said "self-only". MA heals are already *fairly* powerful, up until uber-high levels. A level 82 MA friend heals for less than I do as a level 74 Doc, but he still heals for about 75% of it. Since being a Doctor, one would imagine, would be a fairly specialized field, that and the MP pet put me on edge, considering that Docs don't get the benefits of either class... hell, I remember when I kept getting Anatomy Lesson cast on my DOCTOR ass. I laughed at first, then started getting pretty pissed about it. I won't turn this into a "Docs suck, forget about MAs and buff Docs" thread - Docs are pretty well off, and I would be PISSED if FC gave us loving before giving other professions that need it loving - but the balance and definitions of character classes needs to be clearly defined.

I'm a Doc/MA... I would LOVE to see some of the crit chance buffs, AC buffs, etc, even if they were much worse than your heals. ANyhow, I feel your pain in almost every catagory.

[__________NicholaSix]

Originally posted by Azzazzimon


This could never happend, it's like you would have 7 or how many it is specials..start of with a Shen, BwT, AoS,BoP,AoN, don't even remember the rest.

Would be unbalancing, but maybe they can shorter recharge so it's possible to use more in a single fight.

Well it kind of could happen. BwT could lock parry, Shen and AoN dimach, Bop MA skill, FoL AoS could all go to MA skill too.

So you could say Shen and BwT, OMG did I just say that, maybe that combo shouldn't happen, but you get the picture, shen could lock parry too i guess so you could not BwT and Shen, but could BwT, and Bop or BwT and FoL or AoN.

[_______________Drake]

Forgot who, but someone was talking earlier if they thought some classes were overpowered and they said no, and when asked if some classes with underpowered they said yes.

------------------------------------------------------
Who's Overpowered?

#1 Overpowered Class - Agent

-Their ability to tweek guns on way ahead of time is cool enough, I don't think they should be able to use the best spells of other classes, maybe stopping them from using other class nanos over ql 160 or something. Also agents can use a Fixer's nanos before a fixer can, how said is that? But that deals with both the Fixer being underpowered and the Agent being overpowered.

-------------------------------------------------------
Who's Underpowered?

#1 Underpowered Class - Fixer

-Sure they're great at transportation, but they suck at everything else. Their combat is horrid and every single one of their nano skills is dark blue! Fixing the Fixer is going to require to make alot of skills change from Dark Blue to green, not by giving them some novelty attack like "Areat Burst" who wants to attack more enemies when soloing one is hard enough?

-What skills should be green?

Full Auto - Supressors are good, but there's no full auto buff (beyond general) and it's dark blue to Fixers.

SenseImp, MatMet and Timespace - These are the main Fixer nanos in my opinion, they NEED to be green, the rest should be Light Blue, Fixers use all their nano skills in 1 spell type or another, so the only Dark Blue skill I think there should be is BioMet, but that's only if Evades are made better for Fixers, you'd think since they run so fast they should be able to dodge attacks better. (Grid Armor isn't the answer, unless you change it so that you can do missions for the crystal.)

#2 Underpowered Class - Martial Artist

As of now the Martial Artist role is that of a Critical Hit buffing machine. Their damage is decent, but the fact that they have to get in close to enemies to hit them means they should either have a way to break roots, (not by having to put IPs into Nano Resist but by having some kind of MA special attack that breaks them or something.) or be able to do massive damage in a small amount of time like the Enforcer.
-----------------------------------------------------



Other classes might be underpowered or overpowered, but for right now I believe patches should be used to fix these 3, and not by avoiding the real problem like "Area Burst" is doing, but by actually spending time on fixing their main problems.

[______________Aberic]

i was just in 2ho

clan char badcow lvl 160 soldier
me omni aberic lvl 186 ma


badcow skills unknown

me 5100 acs 800 evades full defensive on slider
went to hit parry shield not quick enough

3 shots from badcow im dead (2 or 3 specials all for 40%capand they recycle in what 3 to 5 mins) Dimach lol
not one punch not one heal



26 lvls, evades though the roof, higher ac then most, full defenssive.

I might as well have been lvl 10 with out any armour and no skills.

Now you just might say o this was just a lucky one for badcow.
Well guess what it happens everytime.

Like i said before they cant even begin to fix our class.
Can you blame me for not being optimistic?

I can give an example from my battle with any other class but its just more of the same.

Just look at the people who complain about my ganking all sub 100. you know why? becuase thats all I can reliably kill.

Do you see any posts about how some ma is so uber that he rules pvp? Nope. Do you see any high lvls complaing about ma's owning them? nope. Do I get a kill unless I get the jump on them shen then dimach then equip hammer? Nope. And then i have to go sit some where for 30 mins for dimach to recharge.

YEAH ITS SO MUCH FUN PLAYING THE MA CLASS
I am not asking for nerfs only nerf I ever asked for was stun and even senseible nt's said it was to much.

JUST DO US JUSTICE PLEASE THIS IS ALL I ASK

[assassimon]

Originally posted by Drake
Forgot who, but someone was talking earlier if they thought some classes were overpowered and they said no, and when asked if some classes with underpowered they said yes.

------------------------------------------------------
Who's Overpowered?

#1 Overpowered Class - Agent

-Their ability to tweek guns on way ahead of time is cool enough, I don't think they should be able to use the best spells of other classes, maybe stopping them from using other class nanos over ql 160 or something. Also agents can use a Fixer's nanos before a fixer can, how said is that? But that deals with both the Fixer being underpowered and the Agent being overpowered.

-------------------------------------------------------
Who's Underpowered?

#1 Underpowered Class - Fixer

-Sure they're great at transportation, but they suck at everything else. Their combat is horrid and every single one of their nano skills is dark blue! Fixing the Fixer is going to require to make alot of skills change from Dark Blue to green, not by giving them some novelty attack like "Areat Burst" who wants to attack more enemies when soloing one is hard enough?

-What skills should be green?

Full Auto - Supressors are good, but there's no full auto buff (beyond general) and it's dark blue to Fixers.

SenseImp, MatMet and Timespace - These are the main Fixer nanos in my opinion, they NEED to be green, the rest should be Light Blue, Fixers use all their nano skills in 1 spell type or another, so the only Dark Blue skill I think there should be is BioMet, but that's only if Evades are made better for Fixers, you'd think since they run so fast they should be able to dodge attacks better. (Grid Armor isn't the answer, unless you change it so that you can do missions for the crystal.)

#2 Underpowered Class - Martial Artist

As of now the Martial Artist role is that of a Critical Hit buffing machine. Their damage is decent, but the fact that they have to get in close to enemies to hit them means they should either have a way to break roots, (not by having to put IPs into Nano Resist but by having some kind of MA special attack that breaks them or something.) or be able to do massive damage in a small amount of time like the Enforcer.
-----------------------------------------------------



Other classes might be underpowered or overpowered, but for right now I believe patches should be used to fix these 3, and not by avoiding the real problem like "Area Burst" is doing, but by actually spending time on fixing their main problems.

This is maybe true for lower lvl, but at higher lvl an agent don't gain anything from getting a gun on early, so they have nothing there, useing other profs nanos is the only thing they really have.

Fixers with all nano skills blue is just stupid, no idea what FC thought about, but fixers with suppressor do really nice damage.

MAs do not do decent damage!
They do REALLY bad damage, not even near what a fixer with mausser do AND they have to be really close so even after patch will be pointless in PvP, roots will ruin everything.

[Laeni]

I don't use the so-called MA weapons because frankly I think they're a waste of IP. But I would like to see throwing weapons in the game.

How else are we suppose to fight when we get rooted? Raise a blue ranged skill?

I want some shurikens (sp)!!!

[assassimon]

How else are we suppose to fight when we get rooted? Raise a blue ranged skill?

No we take out our bows that isn't working, have very low ammo, do bad damage and bad crit:P

[Megabio]

Originally posted by Azzazzimon


No we take out our bows that isn't working, have very low ammo, do bad damage and bad crit:P

But they look cool - and isn't that all that matters?
~Chris

[assassimon]

Originally posted by Megabio


But they look cool - and isn't that all that matters?
~Chris

hehe true, that's why I use a nano cloak on my MP, he is a nano mage he SHOULD use nano cloak, only problem is that I get 400 less AC than if I used a coat, but it's worth it, I look better!

[supergarr]

I don't follow. If they lower minimum damage to balance the gain in maximum damage, won't the average be the same???

So, why even bother?

Minimum should be raised as well as max. Parry and evades should work better. Riposte needs to be redone. Dimach needs to have a lower cycle. AoS needs to do more than 1 damage.

Throwing weapons should be taken out of the game (the skill). Bows need to have the aimed shot and fling shot skill taken off.

[______________Vistol]

Originally posted by Vrach


Glad to see that you don't want to step on our toes... Thank god that you said "self-only". MA heals are already *fairly* powerful, up until uber-high levels. A level 82 MA friend heals for less than I do as a level 74 Doc, but he still heals for about 75% of it.

That's great that our heals do 75% of a doc's heal. I group with a 100 Adventurer, who's group heal heals more and recharges faster. Team Practiced Stitching.. 261-595, 2.97 cast 4.75 recharge, which boils down to REALLY fast on full aggro with a little nano init.

However, someone stated that doc heal recharge time is 2 seconds. Healing Aura, the MA healing program you can get around 50-60, has a casting time of 1.8 seconds, and a recharge time of 7.39 seconds (heals 291-564). At full aggro, it's got a fast casting time, but still a really, really slow recharge.

So now, when we're healing ourselves in combat, we can heal once every 8-9 seconds. During this time, we cannot cast any other programs or equip/remove weapons.

Greater healing touch, our next heal, q99ish heals 350-800. Casting time is 1.9s, recharge 7.69s. Compare this to the advent healing Practiced Stitching that heals 324-864 with a cast/recharge of 3.1/3.56 (much, much quicker on full aggro), or the doc healing Greater Cellular Grafting that heals 476-831, cast/recharge of 2.9/3.69.

Raise nano init you say? It's a deep, dark blue skill for MAs. We are already IP crunched as it is. At 92, I can't remember when I had IPs sitting around not being used, I think it was level 2.

And, unfortunately, for MAs to take advantage of our green evades, we have to go defensive. This also raises cast/recharge time of our heals to an insane level.

I'll tell ya, at 92 I've been using Greater Healing Touch for a while. 350-800hp heals every 8 seconds doesn't cut it. Most things yellow+ will hit me for that much in 3-4 seconds. Our heals wouldn't be so bad, except we NEED them to survive, and the healing range is totally insane. I heal for 400 almost ten times as much as I do for 740. They aren't reliable enough to count on them to keep you alive solo anymore..

I'd really like to see the personal healing line continued. I hate having to target myself in a fight just to heal Also, they could make them fast cast/recharge. This wouldn't be overbalancing, because we can only use so much nano power in a fight. If you did want to spam personal healing, you'd be out of nano fast and dead

Ok enough ranting for me, I'll go back to begging for a buff group =/

Vistol

[DaveDread]

Quote from Vrach:
[Add nanos- No. The character description for MAs is that they rely as little on technology as possible, focusing on the spirit/soul.]

I agree completely on the spirit/soul thing. Yet I would say that MA's are the most dependant on implants and nanos to get that MA skill up. Every point in it gives us a better fist. It's the way the game is designed. Without running the best nanos and having the best implants we're dead.

Also, we have big gaping holes in our nano lines that could be filled with stuff which could provide us with more diversified ways of combat.

I do NOT want any transport-team-to-grid/teleport/uber-whatever nanos, I just want tactical options in line with what the MA should be. Nanos? MA special Attacks? MA items? Doesn't matter at all, I just wanna be able to handle more situations, have more tactical options other then waiting for recharge timers to drop and pressing dimach when the doc catches aggro.

/DaveDread

[inanout]

Also think we ahould get a better heal for the nano cost!

[-Zagadka-]

Originally posted by DaveDread
Quote from Vrach:
[Add nanos- No. The character description for MAs is that they rely as little on technology as possible, focusing on the spirit/soul.]

I agree completely on the spirit/soul thing. Yet I would say that MA's are the most dependant on implants and nanos to get that MA skill up. Every point in it gives us a better fist. It's the way the game is designed. Without running the best nanos and having the best implants we're dead.

Also, we have big gaping holes in our nano lines that could be filled with stuff which could provide us with more diversified ways of combat.

I do NOT want any transport-team-to-grid/teleport/uber-whatever nanos, I just want tactical options in line with what the MA should be. Nanos? MA special Attacks? MA items? Doesn't matter at all, I just wanna be able to handle more situations, have more tactical options other then waiting for recharge timers to drop and pressing dimach when the doc catches aggro.

/DaveDread

Thank you for pressing Dimach when the Doc catches aggro.

As a wannabe MA, I understand all of the frustrations involved. When fighting alongside an MA, we often mirror each other (though I just use BoP, since i don't have the IP to raise the other MA skills). It is kinda sad... the main difference is the MA attack buffs... kinda wrong, I think.

Perhaps what MAs really need - since they aren't SUPPOSED to rely on technology - would be more special "items" in FC's mechanism, and something beyond green to make raising the skills even easier. Unfortunately, in order to do this, you would have to balance it by not letting them use implants.

MA fighting in AO has nothing to do with traditional martial arts. Half of martial arts is turning the power of an enemy against them; a well armored tank solider would be in lots of trouble against a martial artist who got close enough. AO's combat system can't really reflect that, but multiple fighting styles and methods of attack would be nice, rather than just standing there duking it out (with hideously bad hook punch animations, which no martial artist would use in a real fight :-)

Diversification of combat is a necessity for MAs. It should have the most attacks, the widest range of attacks, and the easiest way of stringing them together. Gun combat doens't have very many styles... point, shoot at various speeds in various amounts... martial arts is complex and involves a hella lot of diversity. Not so in AO.

Basically, I want to see less repitition of this http://www.zagadka.net/rubika/slides...RaziFight2.JPG

[-Zagadka-]

Originally posted by IronIce
Also think we ahould get a better heal for the nano cost!

Pshah, get off our territory. You're luck that you have heals at all. :-p

[DaveDread]

An idea I got a while ago was that MA's should have the option to skip all technology. Remove all implants, remove the NCU belt.

No nanos whatsoever. No healing, no buffs, no roots, no nukes. 0 activity in the NCU. I guess that would make us the "Bane of nanocasters" indeed since it would make us invunerable against them, but i still like the idea... 8)

Anyway in most teams I tend to take the role of doc-saver. Most other professions tend to forget about aggro management and blast away all their specials asap. When doc/nt/whoever that really shouldnt tank gets aggro, they have no way of getting it away. Enforcers who have mongo option rarely use it since it will attract several adds and further complicate the situation. Here's the best use I have for MA heals, getting that elusive aggro. Dimach is the main thing, follow up with 2 fast teamheals, a crit brawl and sitting/standingh a few times. Voila. I have aggro and it will stick until I die. Thats the only crowd-control, aggro management MA's have. Going full agg/full def makes very little differance. Using any nano we currently have makes very little difference. I want an equivalent of Soldiers MK-shield/ Enforcers mongo. It'll help.

Perhaps the bow special attack implementation could be interesting, I should read up on that sticky.

/DaveDread