Discuss: 13.8 PvP changes (updated Tuesday 19th)

**______________Scorus** · Feb 20th, 2002, 22:07:57

Originally posted by Nataar
This totally defeats the purpose of this change, a simple fix to this cowardly act by players be it the hunters or the hunted, you should implement a system where the last person to attack the player before he goes craven coward on you gets full PvP kill credit and the loot if any is to be had.

Actually there are much better solutions to the /terminating PvPer problem. This has been discussed at length in several threads. The best is probably to add a 30 second /terminate counter, like the 30 second log-out counter. That would give you 30 seconds to take the guy out on your own. People will still be missed, but much fewer. Some people complain because if stuck they will have to wait 30 seconds, I think that a very small problem compared to the /terminate one.

Another suggestion has been to make it so that people can't terminate when in a fight, like they can't log out. But the problem there is that people are sometimes stuck in missions and under attack, or at least the computer things they are under attack. Thus they would have to /petition and endure the sometimes long wait since they could neither terminate nor log out. Not good.

Scorus

**dropcid** · Feb 20th, 2002, 22:10:25

Originally posted by Scorus

Another suggestion has been to make it so that people can't terminate when in a fight, like they can't log out. But the problem there is that people are sometimes stuck in missions and under attack, or at least the computer things they are under attack. Thus they would have to /petition and endure the sometimes long wait since they could neither terminate nor log out. Not good.

Scorus

In such a case... hit alt-f4 twice, then log back in and /term.

-D

**___________Atrocious** · Feb 20th, 2002, 22:14:11

Originally posted by ULTRA1
No, the winner gets no experience at all under the current system and under the system that is to be implemented. You don't get any experience from the person that you kill and it has always been this way for a number of reasons and I am sure of this from experience. In the beginning of the game the rules were this way too. You could loot unsaved items and if the person you killed had 1/10th of a level in unsaved experience you would get a pinkie as a reward. The incentive of killing someone leveling was to get a pinkie.

I'm glad to know. Hmm... I'd say add pinkie for any kills, and remove xp loss in PvP situation. Loot I honestly couldn't care less about. It sucks loosing the Coat or armor piece you were hunting for , but what the hell you can always get it back by camping a terminal some. XP on the other hand is crappy to loose.

Yes level difference is a huge element in PVP ranking, you have to kill about 10 people your level without dying to get a freshman title, you have to kill about 10 freshman your level to get a rookie title and so on, you can move up faster if you can kill rookies and apprentices. The title of the person you kill is one factor in the calculation and the level of the player is another. Players at the bottom of your range grant very little credit toward your title. The ranking is like a chess scoring system.

Then I really don't understand why people are ganking people 50+ lvl below them. What is the point?(except for the pinkie.) Is that pinkie really that cool that causing grief for others is worth it? I thought it was an easy way to lvl which made it so popular to gank omnis in Ace Camp.

I don't want to get into the whole loot thing, because I don't really have a position on it, but at level 75 you can make 1 million off of 4 or 5 missions, and you can do those in an evening. So honestly, at level 122 borg drop items aren't very valuable to me, and I usually just drop stuff like that on store terminal if I bother to pick it up. I don't know if I'd bother to pick anything off a player but the pinkie anyway but again, that's just me, others may take it as an opportunity to ransom items.

It will take a bit more than 4-5 missions. I'm at lvl 76 doing ql 96 missions and I make about 250k on three missions. More if I find something people want or if all the missions are huge. It takes about 45-1.5 hr per mission.

Congratulations, I have a 3 year old son myself, it's one of the best things about life, kids are amazing!

So everyone has said, but I do know for a fact that it will be more or less game over for me(the wife has promised that)... :-) Not that I mind...

**____________Valerian** · Feb 21st, 2002, 00:18:59

Then I really don't understand why people are ganking people 50+ lvl below them. What is the point?(except for the pinkie.) Is that pinkie really that cool that causing grief for others is worth it? I thought it was an easy way to lvl which made it so popular to gank omnis in Ace Camp.

two reasons:
1. because they can. Hurting others especially when they are unwilling and cant do anything about it is fun for some.
2. Because there is another fact about PvP titles you need to know. Losing a PvP fight hurts alot more. You lose alot more PvP points when you die (someone claimed about 10x what you win from a kill). So killing lots of lower levels are "easy" PvP xp with low risk (/me waves at Ultra

).

I'm glad to know. Hmm... I'd say add pinkie for any kills, and remove xp loss in PvP situation. Loot I honestly couldn't care less about. It sucks loosing the Coat or armor piece you were hunting for , but what the hell you can always get it back by camping a terminal some. XP on the other hand is crappy to loose.

Can be exploited as a teleport. Have a friend kill you after the mission to get that xp back home safely. Would be exploited at lower levels at least. Hehe you could actually do your missions together with a DOT user like a doc and in the end you both bring your health down, he puts a DOT on you and you kill him and die from the DOT. You both still have your xp, no item tho

Val

**___________Atrocious** · Feb 21st, 2002, 00:53:32

Originally posted by Valerian
Can be exploited as a teleport. Have a friend kill you after the mission to get that xp back home safely. Would be exploited at lower levels at least. Hehe you could actually do your missions together with a DOT user like a doc and in the end you both bring your health down, he puts a DOT on you and you kill him and die from the DOT. You both still have your xp, no item tho

Dang.... Forgot about that.... hmmm.... Can you really be doted in a 75% zone? I know you can DOT youself.... That case can easily be fixed in coding...

**__________NicholaSix** · Feb 21st, 2002, 01:19:30

Originally posted by Valerian

two reasons:
1. because they can. Hurting others especially when they are unwilling and cant do anything about it is fun for some.
2. Because there is another fact about PvP titles you need to know. Losing a PvP fight hurts alot more. You lose alot more PvP points when you die (someone claimed about 10x what you win from a kill). So killing lots of lower levels are "easy" PvP xp with low risk (/me waves at Ultra ).

Val

Oh, poo valarian, you are so mean =[

If you want to pitch your 67 or 62 or whatever advent against my 51 MA I'd be glad to oblige you. Send me a tell, erinnyes, so you know in advance, the rookie title came mostly from taking down people 10--16 levels above me, not below me, but if you want to make some unfounded accusation, having never actually played with or against me, that's fine.

I'll come out to SWB too meet you, some place where you can't run to a zone.

If by your comment you just mean that I have pointed out that you do get some PVP credit for killing people lower than you than yes of course it's true, you get some, but not much, and yes it is easier, as it should be, since one player is much higher level than the other. Personally, I like the risks of fighting people higher than me, and in the cases when I have gone to EFP aces to kill omni with my 120ish soldier, I have frequently gone alone to fight against 10-15 people, and often times some of them are orange to me so again your assumptions are false.

Anyway, if you are up for the challenge send my MA a tell and I'll come meet you.

**Bauxite** · Feb 21st, 2002, 02:26:24

Hmm...I'm glad a majority of my characters I choose to level to a signifigant point can grid.

PvP outside arenas is sh1t. If you go in arena without saving you're either a newbie, a dumb@ss or who knows. Anyone who has played this game more than a week knows the arena is owned by the supertwinks and high levels, and there is no reason for you to go there unless you want to see if you're twinked/high enough to survive. Don't go there to duel your friend and expect people to leave you two alone. Expect that both of you will die. If you friend has to duel you, hes not a friend, he just wants to get his rocks off.

Anyways back to FC's vision of the future (and present to some extent)

Bored 150+ saves, and hops along into 25% or 0%.
Frustrated 75 comes out of mission way the fvck out in no where after getting **** xp and some loot and WHAMMO dead in 2 seconds. (easily)

75 loses:
Hours
Loot
Sanity

150+ gets:
Grief points
Virtual Hard-on
0 risk (oh no, he COULD lose a level in his pvp title if a superior ganker comes along...not that it does anything for you)

**Maximilian** · Feb 21st, 2002, 09:03:52

Ultra1: You are loosing concept - you might never had one besides 'all mine'. Is this the only language you understand?

/me shakes head

First: It was me - Maximilian - who offered the possibility of a fight in SWB, not Val.
Second: I am a (neutral) Adv (level 67) with Pistols that has been ambushed quite frequently out there (SWB). I am fast. Unless you are a fixer, there are no means of outrunning me at level 51 on your own. I am at the zone border before you might recognizing it.
Third: Although I would defend myself, I am not overly interested in PvP - because there is no meaning in it.
Fourth: This game (PvP) can't be fair and won't in a life time, because not all the rules are known to everybody. Ever played chess?

Some concepts to think about:
- Attacking people without a warning is coward behaviour - to stay friendly (there is no justification for it).
- Shooting someone (that has been attacked!) in the back that wants to flee is even worse.
- I am not in this game to polish your or any other PvPers ego.
- I am in this game to have fun, and it is my choice how to achieve this.
- If somebody tries to ruin my fun, I will do my best to ruin his -> running and/or terminating.
- A challenge is something that includes risk to all sides of the conflict.

Funcom failed (intentionally) to define the rules and meanings of PvP. If there is no other reward than these silly titles - nobody can proove how he earned them - forget it. This 'conflict' between OT and the clans is pure cosmetics at the moment. Besides server patches there are no ways to influence the game flow, and most probabely won't (think in Funcom dimensions). And Funcom can not afford to concentrate on PvP players - I doubt that this would support them with sufficient player base.

Sorry for getting loud.

So long,

Max(imilian)

**_________________Mor** · Feb 21st, 2002, 10:15:22

Anti-PvPers don't care to take part in PvP. But they come to the boards to try and remove it from the game, or hurt it as much as possible. It's clear however, that it don't work at all.

They also don't go into PvP zones very often if at all... they just come to the boards to complain about a part of the game most of them never see. They know there are war zones (pvp zones) where players take part in the story, if by any chance they decide to enter that war zone, they blame their attackers for all kinds of things. These people are same people that you see complaining alot on the boards for even the ***smallest*** of things.

And the funny thing is... these people only remember the one guy that killed them and laughed about it. I PvP alot and a good 95% of all that I see there (in pvp zones) are RPers... shocking huh? It's not something you hear everyday, but if you PvP and think about it, most that go there do it to destroy the enemy side attacking 2HO, to attack the enemy side, or just to kill the *enemy* anywhere they can. And they *do* stay in-character more then anyone else I have seen in the game.

**Tetra** · Feb 21st, 2002, 10:42:07

Originally posted by Mor
Anti-PvPers don't care to take part in PvP. But they come to the boards to try and remove it from the game, or hurt it as much as possible. It's clear however, that it don't work at all.

Yes we do complain that funcom stop trying to shove PvP down our throats after having hunting grounds change to allow for grief PK's to go grief in what used to be a popular hunting spot.

They also don't go into PvP zones very often if at all... they just come to the boards to complain about a part of the game most of them never see. They know there are war zones (pvp zones) where players take part in the story, if by any chance they decide to enter that war zone, they blame their attackers for all kinds of things. These people are same people that you see complaining alot on the boards for even the ***smallest*** of things.

I'm level 107 right now... name 5 outdoor zones that are a majority of 75% gas with a good number of nonunique mobs that are orange or red to me and give experience (obviously this removes any and all cities since guards = no exp)

And the funny thing is... these people only remember the one guy that killed them and laughed about it. I PvP alot and a good 95% of all that I see there (in pvp zones) are RPers... shocking huh? It's not something you hear everyday, but if you PvP and think about it, most that go there do it to destroy the enemy side attacking 2HO, to attack the enemy side, or just to kill the *enemy* anywhere they can. And they *do* stay in-character more then anyone else I have seen in the game. [/B]

If you really think that the griefers and all four PvP roleplayers on the planet earth and can support AO I'll let the past speak for me

UO
Trammel... Felucca...
where did all the people go again?...

AC
Solclaim, Wintersebb, Leafcull, Harvestgain, Morningthaw, Frostfell, Thistledown, Darktide

hmm... 7 NPK servers, 1 PK server

EQ
Drinal, Ayonae Ro, Bertoxxulous, Brell Serilis, Bristlebane, Cazic-Thule, Druzzil Ro, E'ci, Erollsi Mar, Fennin Ro, Innoruuk, Karana, Layns T'Vyl, Luclin, Mithaniel Marr, Morell-Thule, Povar, Prexus, Quellious, Rallos Zek, Rodcet Nife, Saryn, Solusek Ro, Tallon Zek, Tarrew Marr, Terris-Thule, The Nameless, The rathe, The Seventh Hammer, The Tribunal, Tholuxe Paells, Torvonnilous, Tunare, Vallon Zek, Vazaelle, Veeshan, Xegony, Xev, Zebuxoruk

The numbers speak for me.

**Spluggorth** · Feb 21st, 2002, 13:25:13

Hear Hear!!

PVP as a rule is a good thing i guess, for those "players" who wants the thrill and excitement of actually fighting another sentient being...hmm well ok!?

Anyway i understand that making a foolproof PVP system can be a bother since there will always run around loads of 15 year old, im mad att my mother, im a nerd syndrome kids, who do not pvp as it was intended but rather thrills in making grief for others, ie destroying other peoples fun!

I for one have been ganked a couple of times...fine i think its only time, wait for remains, heal up with my EXPENSIVE healpacks and try for the grid again!

But when comming out of a mission area.....allready halfdead when zoneloading is done, just becouse the ****er outside dont have to load!! and i loose 80k xp for that.....now WHERE THE HELL is that : An challenge , Fun ?!, making me wanna play the game more?! (hardly ) Rather it pisses me off totally since i just spent like 2 hours on a highql mission, having fun and getting my reward for that time and effort i actually put in. Just so ALL that( xp and soon items ) to be taken away by some nerd without a life camping the missionsite??

i meen PLEASE think! FC will !!!! Loose alot! of players that way...guess thats one way of getting rid of the Serious gamers!
ending up with only the old Quake players who thinks RPG is a rocketlauncher!

I have only one thing to say: make a freaking checkbox!
if active = entering pvp ALL AREAS ( city fighting when guards interfere can actually be fun, trying to hide from them)
if NOT ACTIVE!! there for the fun in gaming WITH others not AGAINST!

and pvp kill = title = ENOUGHT! dont encourage those lamer PK
( its not pvp its PK )
Since we are all paying for this on a monthly basis one would think that we had a choice? anyways all im saying is this:
if you wanna pvp fine you can do it anywhere if you check this box
if you rather want to have fun with your friends. dont check this box:

You know..the only ones who will whine about this is the PK campers...REALL pvp players will know and see this for the best..

so FC..what are you freaking waiting for?? in with the box!!

**Peep** · Feb 21st, 2002, 15:23:51

Originally posted by ULTRA1

Oh, poo valarian, you are so mean =[

If you want to pitch your 67 or 62 or whatever advent against my 51 MA I'd be glad to oblige you. Send me a tell, erinnyes, so you know in advance, the rookie title came mostly from taking down people 10--16 levels above me, not below me, but if you want to make some unfounded accusation, having never actually played with or against me, that's fine.

ULTRA1 you are missing the point here first you have to get your adventer to level 75. Now go to a 25% zone making sure you have at least 300k worth of unsaved xp.

Signal when you are ready to fight by pulling a mob. Then the 3 twinked level 150's can drop from thier yalms and take you on in a nice fair PvP fight.

**__________NicholaSix** · Feb 21st, 2002, 16:50:41

Originally posted by Maximilian
Ultra1: You are loosing concept - you might never had one besides 'all mine'. Is this the only language you understand?

/me shakes head

First: It was me - Maximilian - who offered the possibility of a fight in SWB, not Val.
Second: I am a (neutral) Adv (level 67) with Pistols that has been ambushed quite frequently out there (SWB). I am fast. Unless you are a fixer, there are no means of outrunning me at level 51 on your own. I am at the zone border before you might recognizing it.
Third: Although I would defend myself, I am not overly interested in PvP - because there is no meaning in it.
Fourth: This game (PvP) can't be fair and won't in a life time, because not all the rules are known to everybody. Ever played chess?

Max(imilian)

Opps, sorry to val, thought it was him, but if you want max send me a tell we can dance, you have my name from above, doubt you will be able to run away though, as much as you think you can. Since you have 16 levels on me you shouldn't need to run right? I'm sure I won't hear from you anyway.

I do play chess, and I'm not such a fool to open each game KP 2 KP4, capiche?

This isn't chess. This isn't quake either, and both of those games have level playing fields. This game doesn't have a level playing field nor should it, and if it did it wouldn't be a MMPRPG now would it?

I've said it before, neutrals should be able to start combat but not have it started on them, unless they are teamed with even 1 factioned player. What's wrong with that idea?

Originally posted by Tetra

Yes we do complain that funcom stop trying to shove PvP down our throats after having hunting grounds change to allow for grief PK's to go grief in what used to be a popular hunting spot.

I'm level 107 right now... name 5 outdoor zones that are a majority of 75% gas with a good number of nonunique mobs that are orange or red to me and give experience (obviously this removes any and all cities since guards = no exp)

Broken shores by the maze, Andromeda, Milky Way, The longest road, Eastern Foul Planes, Southern Foul hills. There are 6 for you and I could easily name 6 more spots. All of them have mobs that con bright red to me at 120something. You guys should do some exploring, it's fun and it's rewarding. I don't think any of those areas have a save terminals 30 seconds away from the spots tho.

**__________NicholaSix** · Feb 21st, 2002, 17:06:32

Originally posted by Tink

ULTRA1 you are missing the point here first you have to get your adventer to level 75. Now go to a 25% zone making sure you have at least 300k worth of unsaved xp.

Signal when you are ready to fight by pulling a mob. Then the 3 twinked level 150's can drop from thier yalms and take you on in a nice fair PvP fight.

Ya, I wouldn't go there at level 75 once it was turned into a PVP zone. I'd get a team together and go to any number of other spots in 75% gas that have experience yielding mobs, or just do some full hard missions in some teams for a bit.

I'm not saying the picture you paint above is a fair situation, it is without a doubt quite unfair, but at the same time it is completely avoidable and if you put yourself in that position you can't be to surprised when you get attacked by that player.

Please read my language carefully, I'm not condoning or endorsing what that player did to you, or this hypothetical player, but stating that this is part of the game, you are an intelligent player, you know the rules or you should, and you have made a choice. You have many other options, yet you have made THIS choice. It could be that you have made the wrong choice. There could be a better solution than asking Funcom to make your choice the right choice, rather than just considering other alternatives and many exist.

Part of the challenge of leveling to 200, and Funcom has stated that the game is supposed to be harder past 125, is contending with other players. Even though you don't have to do it, your progress is faster if you do to some degree.

Aristotle once said, and I'm quoting from memory, so this is more of the gist of his quote: "The man with the fewer sheep is the richer man". In AO nothing could be more true. Someone with a lot of time on his hands can reach higher levels faster than those who do not. There is not much that can be done about that.

**Maximilian** · Feb 21st, 2002, 17:56:13

-> Ultra1: Send me priv message with your ingame name(s).

Max(imilian)

**____________Valerian** · Feb 21st, 2002, 18:53:35

I'll come out to SWB too meet you, some place where you can't run to a zone.

LOL little confusion there. I thought we agreed I dont like PvP (at least not with these game mechanics). But why the hell should someone meet you for a fight and then be zoning out? You trying to imply that I'm a coward? LOL I feel like a kid again talking to you.

If by your comment you just mean that I have pointed out that you do get some PVP credit for killing people lower than you than yes of course it's true, you get some, but not much, and yes it is easier, as it should be, since one player is much higher level than the other. Personally, I like the risks of fighting people higher than me, and in the cases when I have gone to EFP aces to kill omni with my 120ish soldier, I have frequently gone alone to fight against 10-15 people, and often times some of them are orange to me so again your assumptions are false.

By my comment that you apparently didnt understand I wanted to point out that the PvP title system offers as much "easy", risk free points by picking your fights carefully, zoning, running, having highlevel buffs cast on you or a group to back you up, whatever, to get easy pvp points quite similar to getting safe xp in a camp group.
And please dont start boasting about your exploits in PvP. there are enough of these d00dz in the PvP forums, I dont want to know what qul your weapons are or what implants you use either. All the grid and wompa campers are heroes on the boards anyway. Not one that ever griefed or ganked someone, really amazing.

As for my chara: my main is an untwinked crat. I couldnt even do PvP if I ever wanted to unless I reroll and use all my cash to tune him for PvP and thats just alot of lost time for nothing.

Val

**LeetRoolzor** · Feb 21st, 2002, 18:57:33

Watch out Max

MA's do good at that level and we ADV's always have problems...

I wish you will lose, it will give us one more reason to ***** at FC for an adv fix

j/k

**____________Valerian** · Feb 21st, 2002, 19:22:00

Anti-PvPers don't care to take part in PvP. But they come to the boards to try and remove it from the game, or hurt it as much as possible. It's clear however, that it don't work at all.

I dont want PvP removed from the game, It was there from the start and its actually present in all MMORPGs out there. I just say its a minority doing it and I dont want Funcom to turn the highlevel game into 'accept PvP ganking or do missions in BS all the time' or ppl will leave. There should be the possibility for both player types to coexist, but it wont work with one group enjoying ruining the fun for the other.

They also don't go into PvP zones very often if at all... they just come to the boards to complain about a part of the game most of them never see. They know there are war zones (pvp zones) where players take part in the story, if by any chance they decide to enter that war zone, they blame their attackers for all kinds of things. These people are same people that you see complaining alot on the boards for even the ***smallest*** of things.

LOL read my post in this thread about ppl "roleplaying" in PvP zones exclusively and being very unroleplayish the rest of the time, especially towards roleplayers. And I have been attacked and killed in PvP zones. There was NO roleplaying involved whatsoever. Must have been unlucky I guess and prolly the fact that the PvP boards are full of d00dz has nothing to do with it at all.
And PvP is not partaking in the story. Its just a little aspect of it. This is a Roleplaying Game of a planet with a war going on, not just a war game like counterstrike.
And Mor, you've been on these boards long enough to know that there are no bigger whiners than the PvP players. They constantly complain that either one class should be nerfed or that their class HAS been nerfed and its unfair! All of this underlined by d00dz starting one thread after the other about making this and that zone 25% or 0% gas.
I still think its time for a vote to get some real hard facts about all this.

Val

**Ditka** · Feb 21st, 2002, 20:10:19

I can't even begin to describe how much this annoys me.

AO was billed as a game where you don't have to PVP.

HOWEVER, the current non-pvp play is heavily affected by balancing issues that only concern PVP.
That flat out sucks.

NOW, persons who aren't into PVP, but may wander into a PVP zone, or may really need an item that came up on a mission in a PVP zone, will face an extreme penalty, while persons who are prepaired for PVP (saved recently, camping mission, etc...) will not.

I might as well switch my implants out, keep pets and buffs at all times, change from a cool lookin (and ok PVM) weapon to one better suited for PVP, and start PVPing a LOT.

That's currently my only option to avoid being penalized for not actively participating in an area of the game that FC flat out said I could leave alone.

I think that theres way too much whining on these forums, and I think that FC does a good job overall (I work w/ a lot of developers), but my GF and I specifically picked this mmporg because we wouldn't have to PVP.

FC, please do not take steps that actively encourage PVP play untill you balance PVP enough to re-balance PVM. At least, not steps that overtly penalize PVM players for getting caught (or camped, more likely) in a PVP zone.

I realize that PVP is important to a lot of people, and I don't want to detract from thier enjoyment of the game. But that reservation does not include changing the game in such a way that can only be detrimental to the way PVMers play.

If this goes thru, and I have to stay out of all the 25% areas (where currently 3/4ths of my avaliable missions are assigned), then I don't know that I'll want to play untill its fixed.

Should FC insist on doing this, then I think its IMPERATIVE that the mission terminals stop assigning missions in PVP zones.
EVER.

**______________Takuan** · Feb 21st, 2002, 21:33:03

Guys just a few questions. Why did you choose a side in a game with 2 waring factions if PVP was not desireable to you?

Do you intend to RP the war aspect or just level to 200? If you do choose to RP the war aspect isn't defending against a enemy invasion part of that?

The story is one of War, not very creative really, Big corporate giant stepping on the little guy. If your an Omni soldier how do you RP never going into combat angainst the Clans?

Now sure I respect all of your choices not to PVP. I think the neutral not being able to be attacked but being able to strike first thing was fairly inane but outside of that fine don't PVP. I just have a hard time seeing players RP in a game of global war and never fighting.

Personally I like the large scale team fights which my guild did with DC awhile back. We had both RP and PVP and it was a absolute blast. Everyone envolved (had to be 60 of us) had a good time.

Sure there are issues with PVP, I play an MA so I understand that. Sure getting looted is gonna suck, they had that in the early days when the game went retail and people used to whine like no tomorrow and even beg for their stuff back. It didn't work and FC took it out. In essence I'm not debating grief players here. I understand.

Why not just make neutrals unpvpable and that way anyone that didn't want to actively participate in the story could be a untouchable neutral. Kinda makes sense that there would alot of neutrals just wandering the countyside doing their own thing. They don't have a active part to play in the story so they can just do their lvl'n thing. There should be some sorta big disadvantage to being neutral though to compensate but still, it could work.

Just an idea

Thread: Discuss: 13.8 PvP changes (updated Tuesday 19th)

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