Discuss: 13.8 PvP changes (updated Tuesday 19th)

[Tetra]

seeing as how nearly every other post in this thread is from ultra1 I figured I'd ask....

Funcom is this really the demographic of player you want to cater to?

link to post by ultra1 in other thread

I think they are great rules. First off, even if you got no reward for killing pack hunting players and you couldn't loot them and you didn't get a title or points toward a higher title, people would still do it anyway because it's FUN MAKING OTHERS LOSE EXP. That may sound mean or nasty but it's TRUE. That is why people do it more than any other reason.

Most of the loot a level 80 player grabs off a mission, which to him is treasure, is to a 160 player stuff to drop on a store terminal. The items won't be signifigent to them, taking them from you will be. It won't encourage ganking or gang raping or any greater quantity of killing then already exists, because the biggest incentive to do it isn't the pinkie or the loot it is KILLING YOU.

So I ask you funcom... If this is the demographic your aiming for please tell the rest of us so we can leave now rather than waste any more money on a game that is aiming for a slow withering death as it crumbles around you because a handful of griefers cant support your game and are left with nobody to grief but themselves.

[______________Scorus]

Originally posted by Tetra
So I ask you funcom... If this is the demographic your aiming for please tell the rest of us so we can leave now rather than waste any more money on a game that is aiming for a slow withering death as it crumbles around you because a handful of griefers cant support your game and are left with nobody to grief but themselves.

Well put, Funcom seems intent on choosing to have Doom players rather than role players in their game.

Scorus

[_____________Paldorr]

Well, I don't PvP now. I avoid PvP areas as much as possible, and now have further reason to do so. If I am ever attacked in a PvP area I will immediately terminate because of this move in the wrong direction, and I won't feel bad about it at all.

[___________Atrocious]

Originally posted by Cub
I feel that this type of change is ok, looting someones body is kinda cool, makes them have to think twice before entering a 25% zone.

I think most people already do. At least I do. There are only 2 PvP zones I take missions to:

MMD, easy to fly in and out of. No additional risk at all.
Rhinoman Cockpit(or somewhere around there...), never seen anyone else out there doing missions, and again I have yalm. Fly in fly out. No risk.

Also why would I take the extra risk when the rewards for going to non-PvP zones are the same?

But what i think should be added to the game is some sort of reward for having a title

such as "freshman" ~ adds 1% to damage
rookie adds 5% to damage
apprentice 9%
Novice 15%

The moment they implement this I will cancel. Why? Let me explain:

1. People uber twinked using treatment exploit, or people who have saved uber twinked chars from back when frequent customer was not self only will have another huge advantage in PvP.

2. Say Player A and B are very good friends. They make 2 new chars each. Go to arena Player 1's first char kills player 2's second char 300+ times during that day/hr/whatever. Now has +1% damage. Rinse repeat for player 2. Lvl up to next bracket with all chars rinse repeat. This will give a huge unfair advantage with no risk to people with toooooooooo much time on their hands.

3. 6 players 125+ decide to spend as much time as possible killing lvl 75-90s together(not teamed) given X amount of time they will all have titles and therefore +15% damage. While droves of people leave the game.

4. If titles which give no reward causes grief play, just think for a second about how much grief play will increase if these titles actually gave bonuses?

Now back on topic:

I wouldn't mind these changes if:

1. A forced IP reset with unequip was preformed(get rid of treatment exploiters, and people who gained unfair advantages due to rule changes.)

2. Removed the free for all over lvl 75+, and more realisitc brackets were established. So that people at least stood a chance in 1-on-1.

3. The reward for going to 25% and 0% zones was increased by a factor of 4/2. 4x the money, 2x the QL of the reward, same difficulty monsters.

4. Even if the Attacker has saved before starting the fight, he still stands a chance to loose 10%xp if killed and 10% of money. Or some other type of risk. There has to be a risk for both parties.

5. Overequipping rules are changed so that overequipping still gives an advantage, but not as big as it is today.

I'm pretty sure everyone that spouts about risk vs reward will completely flame me as an idiot, but then I will also know that they are the ones who are afraid of risk. Since these changes would increase the risk of the attacker, and not leaving the aggressors risk free.

I am all for risk increases thrill. That's why I do 75% mission and not 50% mission. I know that one mistake can be fatal, but toooo much risk is also too boring. There has to be a balance. That balance is not there today.

[_______________Garzu]

Next patch I really hope to see that heals gets 50% just as dmg, or I prefere 100% dmg, but anyway, we need same rules for dmg as for heals.

Dots do 50%, but are not capped at 40% of max health as they should, need a fix.

[_____________Trigger]

Here is yet another example of why this game is in the state that is in. Let me try and explain my points with meaning and not flame anyone.

First off I have experience with griefers. I am not against pvp and I, at times, find it exciting. Trying to hunt in a PVP zone is a choice that is the truth. You can choose not to hunt in a PVP zone. BUT, good luck leveling at higher levels without doing that. Almost every area with good mobs to kill are PVP. And to say that you do not have to take missions in PVP areas is BS. 90% of the missions at my level are in PVP zones. But I will say there is nothing as fun as wiping the floor with a griefer that underestimated your group.

That said here is the problem. You want to know why no one is in mort anymore? Because all of the risk without reward falls on the hunted. Who stands to lose as it is now? Only the teams out there hunting to try and get some exp. The griefers are saved and at no risk what so ever. So what do the new changes do for the game. Well lets see griefer is saved and knows he is going into battle, guy trying to get some exp isn't saved or at least might have some unsaved exp. And now this is where all the griefers say "Well don't hunt in the 25% zones then". Well I ask you, what happens to you when everone does just that? You don't like MMD, thats fine I can understand that. But I'll tell you one thing right now, if this change goes into effect that is what all the 25% zones are going to turn into MMD. There will be no hunters there too much to lose verses the minimal gain. You say its a risk you take? I say its a risk that is totally without reward. The griefers are rewarded while the hunted are punished.

If you want to impliment a change like this, then make the risk to attack someone higher too. If some griefer attacks my group in mort and we wipe the floor with him, make him lose something. Put the people that currenly have no risk at risk. Don't just award them more for no risk. The alternative is to give the hunters more of a reason to hunt in 25%. Make us want to go there and defend ourselves in the eyes of danger. As it is now I can live with getting ganked once in a while. Hey and sometimes its fun to catch someone with there pants down thats trying to gank me. But I will never again go into a 25% zone and participate if the upcoming change goes into effect unaltered. Why the He11 would I?? So now my team gets ganked we lose all our exp and our loot? And if we manage to defend ourselfs what do we get out of it NOTHING, not even a win creditied, notta.

FC look closer at the risk verses reward, this change will ruin 25% for everyone griefers and hunters alike.

My 2 cents

[______________Dareus]

No trophys for making people lose exp, griefer central will be camping mission exits and lowbie dungeons.

Good god funcom pass the pipe.

[________________Sent]

Originally posted by Garzu
Next patch I really hope to see that heals gets 50% just as dmg, or I prefere 100% dmg, but anyway, we need same rules for dmg as for heals.

Dots do 50%, but are not capped at 40% of max health as they should, need a fix.

How many times and in how many places will you post the same thing?

The topic is "Discuss: 13.8 PvP changes", not "Discuss how to make NT's uber gods of PvP and how to nerf classes."

[____________Meligant]

Originally posted by ULTRA1
OMG Dropcid I LIKE YOU!

Someone who wants risk in their game!

Back in the SWB days of launch I was there too, the save at the BB was broken and after a fight I lost my guns that I had unequiped to do some MA attacks (god i was a silly soldier back then, but hey my first rpg game) and I needed to have friends help me find a gun just so I could fight again. Anyway PVP was a big thrill back then.

Having a lot of areas 75% gas again is another big thrill. It was fun running from guards, being chased, feeling unsafe in some areas, that everyone wanted to kill you and you needed to move fast and stay low if you wanted to live.

THAT WAS THE GAME I SIGNED UP FOR. Thrill and risk!

Funny. Sounds like Counter-Strike when the other team keeps winning and i'm forced to buy a MP5 Navy to fight their colts/AKs.

[Breaku]

The moment they implement this I will cancel. Why? Let me explain:

1. People uber twinked using treatment exploit, or people who have saved uber twinked chars from back when frequent customer was not self only will have another huge advantage in PvP.

2. Say Player A and B are very good friends. They make 2 new chars each. Go to arena Player 1's first char kills player 2's second char 300+ times during that day/hr/whatever. Now has +1% damage. Rinse repeat for player 2. Lvl up to next bracket with all chars rinse repeat. This will give a huge unfair advantage with no risk to people with toooooooooo much time on their hands.

3. 6 players 125+ decide to spend as much time as possible killing lvl 75-90s together(not teamed) given X amount of time they will all have titles and therefore +15% damage. While droves of people leave the game.

4. If titles which give no reward causes grief play, just think for a second about how much grief play will increase if these titles actually gave bonuses?

1) we can't realy do anything about taht anyways, treatment exploits doesn't only contain tto this thread, you could post taht on everthing to do with pvp. ~ we can't handle that only fc can.

2) True, i agreee. first i just want to say those types of people are losers, but anyways. What fc should do is not allow you to gain a "title reward" for killling a person more than 2 times in a day. or some other sort of scheme.

~ but plasmatiq, i dont base my theories on exploits, i let fc figure that out. not everyone is a exploiter. I worked hard for my titles.

3) exactly, thats what i feel it should be like. THIS game is people vs people. That is what makes mmorpg games fun cause you interacting and fighting with RL people. Otherwise id buy mario, or play star craft on my playstation (who was the genious who thought of that idea). This way more people will fight for pvp titles, and you never know, fc may focus more on pvp and balance things out.

~ although i do agree 75 - 200 is too big of a margin gap.

4) this goes with #3, stop griefing and learn to pvp, otherwise find spots where you aren't in a 25% area. But this game isn't a fairytale where you run around with flowers in your hair humming your favorite melody. Its ANARCHY! ... i mean even little miss riding hood had someone to watch out for

[____________Meligant]

Originally posted by Plasmatiq


I think most people already do. At least I do. There are only 2 PvP zones I take missions to:

MMD, easy to fly in and out of. No additional risk at all.
Rhinoman Cockpit(or somewhere around there...), never seen anyone else out there doing missions, and again I have yalm. Fly in fly out. No risk.

Also why would I take the extra risk when the rewards for going to non-PvP zones are the same?

[/B]

(Deleted for space sake)...

I'm pretty sure everyone that spouts about risk vs reward will completely flame me as an idiot, but then I will also know that they are the ones who are afraid of risk. Since these changes would increase the risk of the attacker, and not leaving the aggressors risk free.

I am all for risk increases thrill. That's why I do 75% mission and not 50% mission. I know that one mistake can be fatal, but toooo much risk is also too boring. There has to be a balance. That balance is not there today. [/B]

Actually, the idea of the camper/griefer/attacker losing exp if he loses is probably the best idea I’ve seen all day.

[Tetra]

Originally posted by Meligant


Actually, the idea of the camper/griefer/attacker losing exp if he loses is probably the best idea I’ve seen all day.

heh scroll back to where i linked to ultra1's post and read what he said when i recommended that same thing was truely disgusting to see how cowardly he is after all his talk about risk vrs reward and such...

here we go

LOL Tetra I have a better Idea, you initiate any type of PVP at all at any level against any level your account and characters are automatically deleted from the data base.

Now that would stop greifing!

In responce to me saying that someone who attacks a person who stands to lose >10% that dies should lose random item they are wearing and if they stand to lose >50% i think it was and die they should lose a sizable chunk of exp too.

[Paffy]

<quote starts>

If you all want to make improvments to PvP try these ideas:
- Add a risk to the attacker.
- Remove the XP loss or make it minimal. Nothing quite like losing 2+ hours of XP to someone taking no risk at all.
- Make it rewarding to be in a PvP zone (hunt in a PvP zone). Currently XP is safer and more rewarding in 100% zones. With things as they are, why even bother going to a 25% gas zone to hunt?
- Give reasons to PvP as a team. Titles turn PvP into a silly duel fest and breed board whiners complaining about class imbalance. The fact is, with buffing and equiping determining the winner of a PvP contest, PvP is already a team contest but title rewards are for solo people only.
- PvP fights need to last longer so people that get jumped have time to decide if they want to stay and fight or run.

<quote ends>

1. Add risk to attacker

Same as I suggested in other thread. Make people who die to lose the amoun of exp the killer has on him (but cant lose lvl). Then the attacker has same amount of risk to lose as you have. He didnt have any exp? You didnt lose any exp.

Killer here is the one who made most dam, not the person who made final blow.

2. Remove XP loss or make it minimal

Look number 1. You could still lose all you had but atleast you knew that the attacker had as much in stake as what you lost. Would still make it risky but for both.

3. Make it rewarding hunting 25% zone

YES!. As it is the best exp is INSIDE for god sakes. Inside those stupid missions killing Veteran NPC's for 100 levels. Oooh the enjoyment... NOT.

Add some equal hunting grounds to outside. Huge camps with Veterans or equal mobs. The ACE (veteran) camp at EFP is good. Make camps like that around the globe, most inside 25% or 0%.

4. Give reasons to PvP in team and titles.

Remove visible titles. Fame will come to those who deserve it even without. In the MUD I played PvP:ers didnt have titles and still everyone knew the best ones (or worst ones). Also this would make "real" fame. Are you newbie ganger that is to be despised? Are you "real" PvP'er that has hunted equal enemies and killed them. Basically, is your name terror among njoobs or is that same terror carried to equal level players?

5. PvP needs to last longer.

Naah. Not really.

Zarch and bunch of other chars up to 140

PS.

I had fun dueling with you in ACE camp month or so ago. Won one, lost one when I got cocky and zoned too late and died to DoT while zoning (laugh).

Fix that btw FC. DoT timers should stop while you zone.

[___________Atrocious]

Originally posted by Cub

~ but plasmatiq, i dont base my theories on exploits, i let fc figure that out. not everyone is a exploiter. I worked hard for my titles.

Can you prove that you didn't exploit? Nope you cannot. You can say how hard you worked for you titles, but nobody know except maybe a GM if they decided to look at your char. We currently have to base all changes on the fact that many have cheated like hell, and it unbalances everything.

4) this goes with #3, stop griefing and learn to pvp, otherwise find spots where you aren't in a 25% area. But this game isn't a fairytale where you run around with flowers in your hair humming your favorite melody. Its ANARCHY! ... i mean even little miss riding hood had someone to watch out for

I don't understand. Do you mean I'm greifing? I know how to PvP I just find it boring as hell. Either you win so easy you feel like you cheated, or you loose so fast you wonder who drove that 50 ton truck over your body? I've only very few times had even matches. Very few.

I want PvP were there is risk involved for every party. I want PvP that actually drives the story. I don't care about titles. Titles only show that you have the patience. It doens't prove anything else. Maybe it also show that you know how to twink. It may prove that you know how to grief play. The most important thing I feel it proves is that you are able to put up with the abuse you get every time you win.

I can support titles for fair arena duels, but there should not be titles for ganking. There has to be a balance in risk and reward.

[___________Zeroshift]

I am changing my position.

Even though I like that prime hunting spots are made into 25% zones... I do NOT agree with the trophies or loot.

They ONLY time you will get loot or make a player lose 10% exp is if you are ganking n00bs as they hunt because everyone else will save before going into a PvP zone.

So this is a BAD idea. This will only encourage greifing. What you need for meaningful PvP is capturing territory.

[__________NicholaSix]

Originally posted by Scorus


Well put, Funcom seems intent on choosing to have Doom players rather than role players in their game.

Scorus

LOL, I'm not sure why you think role playing is standing around the mort borg factory saying "hey dood could you refresh my VS?" and "hey, that doc is LFG get him!" Camp hunting is so the opposite of role playing. When I go out to the aces I bring a story with me to tell the omni there. I tell them my uncle lives in that town and has been resurrected so many times he's daffy now, then I ask them to leave the town in peace.

Tetra, you are obviously a viscous care-bear. I've already said they should let people choose to be neutral if they don't want to be part of a conflict, and those neutrals should be unable to attack or be attacked by omni or clan. That would be fine by me. Suggesting to badly hamper a player's experience because they choose to PVP is kind of silly since no one would ever participate in the conflict (see role-playing Omni v Clan) if their characters were badly damaged for doing their patriotic duty. Your vitriol is so overwhelming I won't bother to address any issues you bring up in your points. You obviously don't want to reason. You want your medusas back, 100k exp mobs that hit like level 80 mobs and you want to hunt them without risk.

I don't think there can be rewards in terms of skills or advantages for people with titles, and there are so many reasons for this, many of which have been given.

Tetra, Scorus there are tons of great places to be a care bear. Go to broken shores and do missions in 75% gas. Till all 7 of your characters slots are filled up with level 200 characters and phat loot. You don't have to participate in the conflict. No one is making you role play. The conflict is part of the game, and regardless of the reward, I will kill omni to be a part of the story, and a part of the conflict. Meanwhile, go find yourself a fun new place to camp hunt, and please stop trying to take the only really interesting thing to do at high levels out of the game.

[Tetra]

Originally posted by ULTRA1

there are tons of great places to be a care bear. Go to broken shores and do missions in 75% gas.

Anyone else see the oxymoron?

[____________Meligant]

Originally posted by Tetra



Anyone else see the oxymoron?

I was trying to avoid having to point it out.

[Tetra]

Originally posted by Meligant


I was trying to avoid having to point it out.

I wonder if broken shores = great place tops broken shores = tons of places or if it's the other way around lol

[______________Scorus]

Originally posted by ULTRA1
Tetra, Scorus there are tons of great places to be a care bear. Go to broken shores and do missions in 75% gas. Till all 7 of your characters slots are filled up with level 200 characters and phat loot. You don't have to participate in the conflict. No one is making you role play. The conflict is part of the game, and regardless of the reward, I will kill omni to be a part of the story, and a part of the conflict. Meanwhile, go find yourself a fun new place to camp hunt, and please stop trying to take the only really interesting thing to do at high levels out of the game.

Sorry, not biting. There is no risk in the kind of ganking you do and therefore there should be no reward. You have saved so will lose no XP or items if you lose, yet you want to deprive other people of their XP and their items. Risk with no reward, exactly what Funcom claims they oppose.

Scorus