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Thread: OOC: Rubi-Kan Economics

  1. #1

    OOC: Rubi-Kan Economics

    I originally posted this in the Whisper's Edge forums in response to someone's query, but I think it warrants posting here (Deacon's getting flamed - wrongly - in the Beginner's forum for something similar - here's to you Deac! )

    Introduction

    There is a very common misconception that the economy of Rubi-Ka is bugged, flawed, gimped, or whatever one might call it. However, empirical, factual evidence quickly refutes this - it is working just as a healthy economy should be.

    Rubi-Kan Economics I: What Inflation?

    Foremost, the Rubi-Kan economy is not inflated, despite the common prevailing opinion. In most cases of large and persistent inflation, the culprit turns out to be the same - growth in the quantity of money. When a government (or in this case, Funcom) creates or makes available large quantities of an economy's money, the value of the money itself falls. The inevitable result of this is that the prices of all goods increase. Is this true of Rubi-Ka?

    Evidence quickly refutes the "inflation" proposition. Why? At a constant Computer Literacy level, bullets cost the same now as they did six months ago. Likewise with Med Suits, Miir bikinis and good old leetpiss at Reets. Likewise, insurance and mission terminals still adhere to the same formula as they used to. Terminal prices - the core of the Rubi-Kan economy, remains fixed at a given level of Computer Literacy. Arguably, the aggregate number of credits exchanged on a daily basis through terminal purchases of bullets, clothing, medkits, etc., far exceed the level of interpersonal transfers arising from sales.

    Yet, these prices have not increased - they are independent of the quantity of money circulating in the economy over any given period of time. For "inflation" to be present, the prices of these goods would have to have risen.

    Rubi-Kan Economics II: Earning Power Differentials

    The economy of Rubi-Ka, contrary to many RL economies, is fully indiscriminate. What this means is that, at any given level, any single character has the ability to earn the same amount of money as the next of equivalent level. A level 200 agent can make just as much as the next level 200 agent. Similarly, a level 60 fixer is just as likely as a level 60 MP to reap the windfall of a GA MKI drop.

    Thus, the supply of credits is actually a function of a little thing called effort, mixed with a sprinkle of luck.

    Aside - A Word on Effort

    Now, effort can actually be seen as a temporal concept, in that it transcends generations of Rubi-Kan characters. Think about Whisper's Edge a moment. It is easy for an unguilded n00bi to say "I don't have the support of uber toons in Foreman's, so I can't get a TIM scope, so my effort is worth far less than someone of equivalent level who has guild support." Is this true? In a sense yes, but only to the narrow-sighted.

    You see, when, for example, Vixentrox, Sidarion and Demona help a younger member camp a mob for that uber l00t, they are conveying and transfering the effort they expended in the past to that younger character. The higher-levels spent a great deal of time achieving that stature; such effort is then passed down through an assistance mechanism to that lower-level character, because the higher-levels are using their past effort not for personal gain, but to help another.

    Now, it is this very principle that many new players decry on Rubi-Ka - the fact that older players can roll "twinks" and effectively dominate at any level as a result. Is this fair? I would argue that it is entirely so. Think about players who have been around since launch (if such a creature exists on Rubi-Ka ). That is almost two full years of gaming in AO, with a /played that would probably cause most to faint. Yet, when those very level 200 players first set foot on Rubi-Ka, not only were they poor little l33ts, but if you actually look at how the low-level earning power has increased since launch, they were actually worse off than today's generation of new players.

    Take the new "Take me to the shop!" items that drop off the mobs in the training ground. 200 credits when sold to the training ground terminal. If you go back even to December of last year, it would take hours to earn that sum prior to the introduction of these items, as those players were forced to sell monster parts and the odd ring for 5 or 10 credits. Similarly, before the Notum Wars Booster hit live, organizations had almost no need for level 10 players who were just starting out. Indeed, most didn't open recruitment until level 30 or even 50.

    These two examples alone have opened doors to today's new players that quite frankly did not exist five months ago. Now, n00bis leave the training ground with 5-10k in their pockets, only to venture out to the two new dungeons - the Subway and The Temple of the Three Winds. These two places are GOLD MINES, for two reasons: (i) you fight (and thus loot) a lot of enemies in any given session, as opposed to n00bi missions which only have a handful of enemies; and, most importantly (ii) because of the loot drop that Funcom has structured in these two places, you can essentially find most of the equipment you need at your level.

    Two things illustrate the second point above: the first, from the Subway, is Living Cyber Armour. Upgradable to level 50 (I think). If you spend enough time trying to acquire a full set, you have no need to purchase another piece of armour for a VERY long time. The second, from the Temple of the Three Winds, are the infamous Robes. Useable by anyone, acquirable by anyone, providing bonuses to AC and other stats that are INSANE. Also in the Temple, the mobs drop, on average, around 1k credits per kill. Sure beats the mission treadmill most older players were forced to endure prior to the introduction of these.

    Back to the original point now. Take a level 25 twink and level 25 noobi. They both roll solo missions of the same QL for the same "find item" to the same place. Who earns more money? Neither. Assuming both missions are the same, they will both earn the same for completing the mission. Likewise, they will both earn the same in the Subway, or the Temple, or out hunting the same levels mobs. As such, earning power is constant and not unbalanced - it is fair for all.

    Rubi-Kan Economics III: Price Diferentials Explained

    Would you pay 100 million credits for 25 bullets? If you said yes, I have a bridge that I'd love to sell you . Obviously, you wouldn't. But why? Because you can walk into any shop (faction permitting), at any time, and pick them up for a handful of credits. Next question: if you're a fixer, would you pay 100 million credits for GA MKIV? Assuming you had the money, you'd probably pay more.

    A simple pattern emerges from the above, and one simple word explains the differences in prices on Rubi-Ka: scarcity. Look at it this way: if GA MKI dropped off of every mob at every level, how much would you pay for it? Probably less than a pack of bullets. Nullity Sphere? Same. "Uber" loot is uber not only because of the benefits accruing to its possessor, but also because of its rarity - because of the difficulty of acquiring the item.

    To use an RL example, take the Mona Lisa. One in existence. Assuming it wasn't under heavy guard and was priced to market, how much do you think it would go for? Rather, if, by wandering the streets picking up random pennies, one of those pennies contained a lottery winning for that painting, how camped do you think stray pennies would be? How much grief do you think you would find in Central Park or on the banks of the Thames? Plenty. (Probably more than at Tara ). Now, imagine that there were 500, or 5 million, copies of this painting. Would the price drop? Would the camping of pennies on the streets of Earth drop, or at least diminish somewhat?

    Quite simply, it is the very rarity of the items that causes the elevated prices. Yet, this pattern can also be seen in modern economies during times of product shortages (recent ice-storms and the increased prices of generators at retailers is a prime example).

    Rubi-Kan Economics IV: Where Tarryk and Metalynx were Wrong

    I remember listening to an episode of Talk Deviant awhile back in which Tarryk and Metalynx went on an absolutely HILARIOUS drunken tirade about the flaws of the Rubi-Kan economy. One of their princinple points was that the economy sucks for lower level characters, and that something needed to be done to remedy that. Did Funcom listen? Aside from the dungeon examples listed above (which were based more on content planning than anything else), nope. Should Funcom have listened? Nope.

    The "why" can be answered with one simple question: How much money did you make in real life when you were six years old? Take this further: Did you make more money when, at 14, you got your first job? How about when you entered the workforce full-time at 22? See the pattern? ANY economy sucks for low levels, whether those levels are based on age or xp.

    The reason? The simple answer is that, the lower your "level", the less valuable you are to a society. You have fewer skills, less knowledge, and as such produce fewer "network effects" to the economy as a whole. Think about this in terms of Rubi-Ka. When you need a wrangle, who's more important to you: a level 200 or a level five trader? In RL, when you need to have your teeth cleaned, do you go to the dentist's office or to the snot-nosed kid down the street? Because of this, who do you think earns more money, and as such, reeps the greatest benefit from the "economy"?

    Rubi-Kan Economics V: A Word on Relative Personal Value(a.k.a., Why Demand and Scarcity are like Vinegar and Water)

    Let's say that Uwen, in a fit of rage at his own anti-levelling behaviour, rolls a team mission and decides to be a hero and solo it. He actually succeeds in calming his way to the boss, and slaughters it. The boss yields: GA MK II. Uwen discos over the corpse, then /terminates in joy.

    Uwen is now sitting at reclaim, stroking the GA disc in a state of ecstacy. He has two basic options: (i) keep the disc; or (ii) sell it at auction, over the forums or the shopping channels. (I'm keeping it simple - no selling to friends/allies.) What does he do? He obviously sells it, because it is worth NOTHING to him, simply because he can't use it himself.

    Assume, for simplicity's sake, that there are only two people on the Clan Shopping channel: (i) a level 200 NT; and (ii) a level 100 fixer. Assuming that both have the same number of credits and neither have the disc, who will win the auction? Obviously, the fixer would, because that disc is worth FAR more to that fixer than an NT, for whom the personal value of that disc is zero.

    The current market value of GA MKII is approximately 100 million credits. Now, assume this time that there are three fixers on the channel:

    • Level 200, with 250 million credits;
    • Level 100, with 150 million credits; and
    • Level 50, with 100 million credits.


    Who wins the auction? Obviously, the level 100 fixer. Why? Because the disc itself is worth almost nothing to the level 200, but is of EQUAL personal value to the level 100 and 50 (because they can both viably use it). The price would be bid up to 100 million credits (the market value), but, because the level 100 wants it, he/she would outbid the level 50 by 100 million + n credits (because he/she can do so).

    What is the end result? Bliqz is out hunting one day, and finds his own GA MK II disc. Bliqz remembers that Uwen got 100 million + n credits, as does everyone else who is looking to sell the disc at that particular time. Thus, the market price, which was, prior to Uwen's auction, 100 million credits, rises to 100 million + n credits because sellers KNOW that there are suckers lurking about whose personal value of the disc is at least equal to that amount, and as such are willing to pay. Bliqz thus sells his disc for 100 million + n credits, until a bidding war increases the price to 100 million + 2n credits, etc., etc...however!

    This will not continue in perpetuity. Eventually, the price will be bid to an exhorbitant amount that EXCEEDS the effort value of that same buyer camping an endless number of bosses to get it himself. As more fixers begin camping for discs rather than buying them at market, the value of the discs will once again fall to a lower market equilibrium price because people will NOT be willing to pay that + n amount because it is simply not worth it (most likely because the time needed to acquire that quantity of credits > the time expended camping to acquire the disc).

    Conclusion

    It may be a cold, cruel thing to say to the "younger generation" of Rubi-Ka, but if you want the money, you have to work for it. There are ways to make it, and if you're lucky, you'll be an instant millionaire. But honestly, how many people win the Powerball lottery? Don't expect to walk into billionaire status on Rubi-Ka - you have to earn your keep, just like everyone else did when they first set foot on this wacky, wild planet.
    Last edited by Emiliy; Apr 7th, 2003 at 03:54:41.
    Emiliy Age
    Unit Leader, Foreign Relations
    Speak your heart, don't bite your tongue...

    Whisper's Edge | Gridmail | Engy's Workshop | Tir School of Engineering

    Bliqz on Shadowlands: "Gonna make it hard to decide who I can and cant eat."

  2. #2
    ((Bump for an exellent description of the Rubi-Kan economy . Perhaps it would be a good idea to post this on the beginners forum as well.))

  3. #3
    ((LMAO have you seen what poor Deacon's dealing with over there? ))
    Emiliy Age
    Unit Leader, Foreign Relations
    Speak your heart, don't bite your tongue...

    Whisper's Edge | Gridmail | Engy's Workshop | Tir School of Engineering

    Bliqz on Shadowlands: "Gonna make it hard to decide who I can and cant eat."

  4. #4
    Originally posted by Emiliy
    ((LMAO have you seen what poor Deacon's dealing with over there? ))
    ((Just went over to see Deac's thread, I suppose that posting something there on why hard work is actually required to make money is really a touchy subject with some people . ))

  5. #5
    OOC:

    Hehe, while I'm not an uber-level, I'm not necessarily a n00b, but I had no trouble with money. Once I figured out that some items sold well, I did pretty well. Then I got hired by somebody to fill out a team for 5 million creds (!). I enjoyed it because it wasn't a handout. In fact the handouts I did get (unasked for, btw) I mostly dispersed even further, 10k here and there to various lvl 5's or sthg. This was before "Take me to the store!".

    Anyway, I enjoy AO for the very reason that it is fairly difficult. Some may argue that if they wanted real life, they wouldn't play a game. But our lives are based on rl, like it or not, and our enjoyment and sense of satisfaction come from elements of rl. Someone who's worked their way to the top feels truly rewarded and the same thing goes in video games. If you work for it, even though it's just pixels on a screen, you feel pretty good about it and thusly, you are entertained. What's entertaining about being handed everything? All you're doing at that point is exactly that plus a click. Point and click, point and click. You're not playing anymore. I really do think that playing is basically practice for life. Cats play as kittens to learn to hunt. Earning your way in a game could possible translate to earning your way in rl (although I suppose there's some serious limitations to that, lol).

    It does crack me up that there's an older generation who are bristling at the n00bs who want the world handed to them on a silver platter instead of earning their way like the high lvls did in the good ol' days. Exactly like rl, eh? The older generation works hard to build a better tomorrow and the younger generation used to being spoiled expect to continue to be spoiled. ROFL!

    Not to be insulting to those who wish for the n00bs to earn their way, I heartily agree and it angers me when n00bs whine about it. Personally I thought at times it was a little too easy to make money.

    Yeesh, I don't think I'm even making sense here anymore. Anyway, fight on Thedeacon and Emiliy!

    Woah, I just realized that this so much like the economics classes I've been taking in school o.0 .
    The only difference between genius and insanity is success.

  6. #6
    Fact is people have duped credits in AO, also you used to be able to blitz tank armors and sell them for 1 million credits a piece...

    Also there was the problem with guild bank exploits that generated so many credits they had to start putting money sinks in the game besides the normal uber rare loots.

    And lets say your playing a proffesion that nobody pays for buffs ever ahem enforcer, ma, fixer... You can start out by blitzing useing an out of game proggie like clicksaver to find items that sell for spare change to high lvls and armor sets that are pretty much outdated by the new nodrop and tradeskill armors for twinks ahem...

    Ok I made it to 187 on table scraps, I still live like a hippy, I have found a total of 2 soul frags and had to sell them both just to get ql 200 implant sets and my legchopper gloves which allow me to self equip my queenblade saving me money in the long run not having to get a wrangle every time I want to equip a bronto burger and so on... I'll probably never own a vt egg now since I pretty much blew the 2 required things I had found to get implants I needed more at that time.

    So what are my choices now, I can sit with clicksaver and roll endless missions filling bags full of animas... This is just about the most loathesome part of the game to me. I can sit around and buff peoples alts with uber enf buffs and hope they decide to pay me for buffs which just about nobody will. I can stop and loot every mob in a mission I can get my hands on filling bags full of junk and piss the rest of my team off at the same time becuase 3 rooms ahead and I'm waiting for the corpse to open...

    Do I really need a heaping amount of cash... No not really, I've gotten by with a bank account of aprox 10 million credits hovering at that level for 187 levels looting on my own time and I am well equiped enough. No I don't have an account full of twinks nor could I afford them.

    Anyway to say the economy is perfect as it is isn't totally true. The way to get a yalm when I started out was to blitz for ql 75 omni pol elite armor sets about 4 of them and camp the shopping channels untill someone would buy a set for there alts. I'm pretty sure there are better armors now than ql 75 elite so don't ask me how people are making enough these days just starting out, if there running ql 10 for concrete cushions thats gonna take a long time, not including the time spamming the shopping channels untill someone actually needs them. Selling low lvl boss loot doesn't cut it either becuase just about anything good is either nodrop, can be blitzed or made by tradeskills now.

    I don't know thats how I see it, I play a proffesion that is self sufficient pretty much without massive amounts of credits.
    Thats just how I see the economy, to me it's a bit once sided toward buffers and tradeskills, without out them your only option is to blitz items to make any decent amount, or find an extremely rare item to sell to a desperate person.

  7. #7
    Never said it was perfect, just healthy

    But I do agree with the money-making issues. However, this disparity only really starts to hit people once they top level 75ish (when the valuable buffs become available, and when tradeskillers can build most of the good low-level gear). It's the low-level point that I was making above - namely that, as you say Ognom, you lived the life of a damn fine hippy and scrapped to where you are now, as have all the other 150+ players out there.

    I just find it funny how the "little ones" whine and complain that they should have that ph4t 10 million credit account () without putting in the work it took you to get there.

    (Note: there are a TON - and I mean a TON - more low levels that do earn their keep and work for what they get. It's pretty unfortunate that they, too, get lumped in the pile with the griefers that beg you for 1 million credits (and ya, believe it or not that happened to me last week ), and then scream at you when you try to tell them that you only have 25k in the pothold.)

    (Oh, and Ognom...LOVE the siggy but you have to put Viking Kitty back on your webpage )
    Emiliy Age
    Unit Leader, Foreign Relations
    Speak your heart, don't bite your tongue...

    Whisper's Edge | Gridmail | Engy's Workshop | Tir School of Engineering

    Bliqz on Shadowlands: "Gonna make it hard to decide who I can and cant eat."

  8. #8
    Hippies unite rofl, anyhow off topic of the topic I disbanded my Viking Kitties org recently just becuase it was getting stale, only had 1 other semi active member. That Viking Kitties stuff was on www.rathergood.com but it's not there anymore, I did however find the animation on another site and linked it off a geocities site that has low bandwidth but might be able to d/l it there, link is...

    http://www.geocities.com/bongobarnab...ng_kittens.swf

    Right click that and save target, prob only 1 gig bandwidth on that though so it might not be there long, thats the one that was at the rathergood site but it's a different one now where the kittens want to take you to a gay bar lol, watch that one it's pretty funny.

  9. #9
    Interesting topic, but not a role-playing one. Closing the thread.

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