Who are the real thugs?

[Sumokan]

Greetings,

I wanted to clear some misconceptions about the current situation of the neutral clan relations.

Posted by:Luxxusstreak
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neutrals have nob usiness in our city for quite the obvious reasons. for one, what do they hope to gain by going to tir? they can't use any of the shops if I recall because the veondors for the longest did not really want neutral business, do you barge into the stores,and the armor merchant shops and kill them because they refuse their business?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not entirely true, yes neutrals cannot use MOST of Clan and Omni Tek vendors however neutrals have access to all Clan and Omni Trade Skill Vendors and also to all Tower Stores as well.

Posted by:Luxxussreak
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The whole planet is in a state of warfare, and in war you had better damn well chose a side or get caught int he fire, because the battles will/do rage into neutral cities, and if you don't have a strong opinion either way on the conflict, the war machines will just roll over you I am sad to say. you say youa re trying to win the neutrals over as allies right? well if they chose a side thent hat makes them that particular side and no longer neutral, I don't think a real neutral would even gof or that, so it's a vain attempt, they will always straddle the fence and can't be trusted
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are many reasons why we neutrals choose not to side. As for me after the couple of years of the conflict I still don't know who the good guys or the bad guys are however, I do not live in the past but the present and I will respond accordingly.

Neutrals did NOT start the current situation. The Clans came to this by allowing Silverstone free reign in Tir and Clan guilds taking up 80% of neutral mining operations by force of arms.

Dipomacy and trade is a two way street, as long as we are not welcomed in Tir, clan is not welcomed in New Land. While some view it as a harsh and draconian, it was the only one we had without risking neutral lives.

[Ashval]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate
Braedon, the "majority of Clanners" you know are composed of people that "do not wish Neutrals to be slayed on sight in our cities." Which is a minority group of the entirety of the clans. Instead of assuming this small group speaks for the majority of the clans, why don't you ask all the clans?

The "majority of Clanners" I speak of are those who bother to have an active voice in the community. ((i.e...the roleplayers mostly)) If you are suggesting to me that the majority of the vocal Clan population wanted to see the Sentinels enter Tir and start killing Neutral citizens...well, then we might as well stop this discussion now. That, quite simply, is not true.

And please don't insult my intelligence by stating my words are assumptions. The actions I speak of are well documented, and those who have committed those actions openly admit having done and support those actions. That makes them facts, not assumptions.

I'm sorry if you felt I was insulting your intelligence, but it's very difficult for me to avoid that when talking to someone who defends the killing of innocent Neutrals.

You're statement that I'm referring to your organization is incorrect as I have not stated any one person or organization. These people know who they are, so I have no need to name them. Also, I have been using quotations around 'moderates' because I'm not sure what else to call this group of persons I'm referring to. I've simply chosen 'moderates' because this group is composed mostly of 'moderates' by your defination. So, know it was not my intention to label your group of 'moderates' within my group of 'moderates.' (( I hope that made sense. ))

The fact that you haven't stated any one person or organization is precisely my point. Using labels and putting people under that label is dangerous and inaccurate. I do consider my org to be what most people would consider "moderate." Thus, all I can do is respond as such.

And, before anyone points the accusation my way...yes, I have aided in the killing of Sentinel guards. I did so to protect the life of a Neutral friend attempting to come to Tir for a peace assembly. Do I condone attacking Sentinel guards? No, not really. They just come back again, so what's the point? I agree that diplomacy and peaceful means are the more desireable alternative. However, this is how direct means of doing so ends up...

Braedon: Excuse, me Mr. Sentinel guard. There's going to be a young lady coming through here shortly that wishes to speak at a peaceful assembly. She will be unarmed. Please do not shoot her.

Sentinel Guard: *stares blankly*

Braedon: Um, okay. Thanks for your time.

<<enter lovely young Neutral lady wearing social attire and carrying no weapon>>

Sentinel Guard: *fill in any assortment of vile threat here, followed by gunshots at said young lady*

Braedon: WTF?

<<Braedon and friends kill bloodthirsty maniac before young Neutral lady can be killed>>

If someone knows of a better way of dealing with this issue than what has been tried, please speak up. Diplomacy has failed. Appealing to higher channels has failed. Direct violence has failed.

((Game mechanics have been used earlier in this thread to back a roleplay stance, so I can do the same. And, yes, your post did make sense Cem. LOL It just gave me a headache. ))

[UwensBack]

Yikes! My head hurts! I'll just say what Lexus says...

I'm right. You're wrong. Shut up.



On a more serious note, I'm not going to take part in the same damn discussion I and other moderates have had a thousand times before. I'll give Braedon a pat on the back for leaving a party and arguing ( Just kidding) and I'll sit on the sidelines cheering for the Home Team. My mental stamina has been drained. Of course, with these expert debaters, I'm obsolete anyway

/me runs off to sexx0rz and party

[______________Wolfen]

Originally posted by Nelida
Well, yes, I agree...it makes them all criminals. Any guard that kills without provocation based solely on association and without arrest, trial and conviction. It seems we have a planet full of guards that take it upon themselves to dish out punishment.

Not just guards. I'll bet just about everyone in this discussion has pulled the trigger on someone just for personal gain, that's a better reason than ensuring your people's safety?

Originally posted by Nelida
The Sentinels didn't ASK to come to Tir and help. Nor did they ASK the residents of Tir HOW they would like the job done. Why in hell should we molly coddle the Sentinels? They are extremists they are invaders and they are killers.

I don't think we are mollycoddling anyone. Yes, the Sentinels are extremists. No, the Sentinels are not invaders, any more than any group of Clanners that take defensive military action on their own initiative. Yes, the Sentinels are kilers, as are all of us that chose to fight in this war.

Originally posted by Nelida
Ian Warr's thugs in NLC are no different. OT guards are, imho, the same.

I think that, in time, we will find that Warr is a different kettle of fish entirely. OT guards are, as you agree, guilty of exactly the same behaviour as the Sentinels, and for much the same reasons.

Originally posted by Nelida
I have NO problem with any of these guards shooting those that attack citizens of their respective cities.

I even have NO problem with Templus visiting clan cities (and she broke my ribs and knocked my teeth out) as long as she isn't kidnapping me or otherwise interfering with the lives of peaceful people.

I have a problem with Templus breaking your ribs and knocking your teeth out I'm afraid. I would count that as interference in your life and would expect the Clan guards to deal with her in a similar fashion.

Originally posted by Nelida ONLY under those types of conditions do I condone ANY guard on RK opening fire.

There are as many clan criminals as there are neutral criminals...I find it ludicrous to kill all neutrals setting foot in Tir because some very small minority MIGHT be criminals. [/B]

I'd agree, but these are insane times and the paranoia that leads to policies like this is everywhere. Killing Sentinel guards just proves the paranoid correct in their mind and makes them become even more paranoid and prone to draconian measures.

Originally posted by Nelida Are there really any of you so pitiful that you feel safer knowing neutrals are excluded from Tir? Safer in Tir than in Old Athens or West Athens? Bah...what drivle you all spew.[/B]

You ask this after BORPAC had a damn good job of blowing up the centre of Borealis?

Personally I find West Athens far from well guarded, which is both a curse and a blessing.

[Fixerben]

No, the Sentinels are not invaders, any more than any group of Clanners that take defensive military action on their own initiative.

Exsqueeze me? Tir was not under attack. The Sentinels taking over Tir was an invasion my friend. Plain and simple. It was an offensive action.

[Duzytato]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate
Tifanyx, certainly you can patch up alienation within family. But, you've chosen a method of dispute which goes far beyond verbal dispute. You're literally killing people. Do you think your family appreciates you killing them?

I don't think alot of this would be happening of perma-death were involved. Reclaim is a wonderful thing..

[Raveleet]

Tir was policed by the ICC guard, something alot of clanners was unhappy about, The Sentinels took action and reinstated clan guards, which unfortunately due to Silverstones view on neutrals led to neutrals no longer having access to Tir city.

I do not see that as an invasion.

But as someone said these are paranoid time and calls for drastic measures, when your own guards gets killed by someone claiming to be on your side that point gets proven very well.

Allthough I do not agree I can understand why Silverstone is enacting the better safe than sorry policy on how he police Tir city.

Neutrals aren't all a bunch of peacelovers, some of them are mercenaries taking assignment from Omni Tek to carry out acts of war against clans and some of them are terrorist seeking only personal gain whatever motive they have.

However most of them aren't, and that is why we as clans must unite to find a better option for the protection of Tir than the Sentinels, and untill that option presents itself we cannot go around killing our own kind, spreading hatred and violence among ourselves.

I am saddened to see mercenaries now policing Newland city, but trough the very action of the people who claims to fight for freedom and justice I can also see the reason why we give out such an image that drove some neutrals to this drastic measures.

It is not only Sentinels that are the problem of the clans, it is the short sightedness of people who resolve to violence when they see something they don't agree with.

In the end if everyone was to run around acting out their own laws and passing out their own judgements without approval from society then we will truly have anarchy, and forfeit everything the original founders of the clans dreamt of.

[_________Lexusstreak]

haha sumokan, who gives a damn if clanners can't go to newland, you ever smelled the air around that place? it was more an omni tek city than anything else, you know it's true, because all i saw were Omni citizens sitting on the various rooftops consorting with each other...LONG before the sentinels ever showed up, so no no don't blame the clans for the start of this, the neutrals had already made a stand by having so many omni citizens strolling about their city. Tir is a much more prestine place than Newland will ever be, and I for one am glad that people like you will never walk it's streets.

[_________Lexusstreak]

Rave, that is the very reason WHy we need the sentinels, and people like me. If you are allowed to do as you wish, then anarchy will reign, people going throught he streets slaughtering their own kind. It's why they deserve to have their freedoms stripped from them...oh no no, don't come here and say, hey you, join Omni Tek. if it were up to me, you'd be begging for omni tek to help you, cause I would not be so merciful.

[Cemetarygate]

Braedon, no, I'm not suggesting "the vocal Clan population wanted to see the Sentinels enter Tir and start killing Neutral citizens." I'm saying, don't mistake silence for agreement.

The minority of clans make up the "active voice in the community," while the majority of the clans have yet to voice an opinion. Ask those that have yet to speak what they think before you say you speak for the majority.

Also, I have begun calling this group of people Anti-Sentinels instead of 'moderates'. Seems fitting of their purpose and distinquishes them from those who are truely moderate.

As to who is Anti-Sentinel; any clan who takes action to have the Sentinels removed from Tir. To further distinquish the groups, Extremist Anti-Sentinels (EAS) and Moderate Anti-Sentinels (MAS). Those that use means of violence to accomplish those goals, and those who use means of diplomacy to accomplish those goals, respectively. I would further distinquish those groups into two sub groups as well, but I'll save that for another time.

Finally, to everyone, I am not defending anyone's actions for "killing of innocent Neutrals." I have stated on three occassions that, "attacking and/or killing those that truely have no stance in the conflict is wrong." What I am supporting, again, a group that assists our notum mining goals and that keep our capitial city safe.

[Cemetarygate]

Originally posted by Tifanyx
Reclaim is a wonderful thing..

Pain isn't.

[Fixerben]

Originally posted by Ravegrrl
Tir was policed by the ICC guard, something alot of clanners was unhappy about, The Sentinels took action and reinstated clan guards, which unfortunately due to Silverstones view on neutrals led to neutrals no longer having access to Tir city.

I do not see that as an invasion.

The Sentinels came in to Tir, and told the ICC quite literally to "Leave, Or else...". Obviously the ICC didnt stick around long enough to find out what the "Or else..." was. If you as Silverstone he said himself exactly what I just told you. That is a forceful action. That is an invasion.

At the time the ICC guards were in Tir, there was another ogranization trying to police the streets too. In those days you could find me in my CoA uniform patrolling the streets. Making sure everything was in order, and Omni werent running rampant through our great city. I never once had to pull my trigger on an Omni or a Neutral while I was patrolling. The Sentinels rushed in, destroying months of work. All the time I had spent was for naught. Because the Sentinels felt it was time to take over. (Another prime example of how players werent payed any attention to)

The Sentinels destroyed what peace the CoA was trying to bring. Collapsing all of our efforts with one foul swoop.

((Dont bring up the crap about how the CoA caused the fall of the CoT, becuase when I joined the CoA I was reforming it into a more helpful oragnization. Ask anyone that was around. We did our damndest to keep peace. Not to kill anyone not Clan that walked into the city.))

[Rubel]

Originally posted by Ravegrrl
In the end if everyone was to run around acting out their own laws and passing out their own judgements without approval from society then we will truly have anarchy, and forfeit everything the original founders of the clans dreamt of.

Hmm I'm just watching this from the sidelines, but that's the worst attempt at trying to critizise the Anti-Sentinal clans I've seen. You've just made the Anti-Sentinel clanners' point...

The Sentinels have been acting out their own laws and passing out their own judgements without approval from society, and thus have forfeit everything the original founders of the clans dreamt of.

*slips back to Newland to watch the rest of the show in safety*

[Raveleet]

If you have bothered to read my post, you'd see that I don't support Sentinels politics, nor that they kill neutrals.

If you have bothered to read my signature you'd see that I am in a clan who doesn't support the Sentinels and are also a member of an alliance who seeks a peaceful solution to the conflict.

I do not support violence as a way to solve conflict, be it from the Sentinels or the people who wants them gone.

Both Sentinels and their advesaries are guilty of what I said, it was critisism of everyone involved in this futile bloodshed.

I did say however that I am more happy having sentinels guarding Tir than the corporate funded ICC guards. I also said that the clans should unite and find a better solution to the Tir problem.


Don't twist my words.

[Raveleet]

Fixerben:

Invasion or liberation is in the eyes of the beholder.

I saw ICC guards patrolling and policing Tir city, something I wasn't happy about since they are the representatives of the very powers that lets money rule over people, they'd might as well have been Omni Pol guards for all I care, different uniform same politics.

Silverstone and The Sentinels isn't a good alternative, but in my opinion they are a better alternative than ICC or Omni-Tek Corporation.

I never truly understood what CoA really stood for as different signals was put out from different members, they wanted an alternative to CoT which I admit looking back was needed, and even more so today, but aside I can't recall any clear direction they wanted to take the clans ((sorry wasn't paying to much attention to the RP in the game at that time, so this is all I remember)).

Had CoA succeeded in becoming an alternatice to CoT united the clans and taken over the guard of Tir ((FC put a big stop to that, but IC I have to see it as a failure to do so)), there wouldn't have been a Silvestone in Tir today, unfortunately they failed.

CoT and CoA isn't anymore, the clans needs to be reunited and stand together instead of internal power struggles and bickering

[Fixerben]

Ravegrrl, the Sentinels threatened the ICC guards with bodily harm so they would leave. That is a forceful take over. Which is an invasion.

[______________Wolfen]

Except that the ICC Peacekeepers were, in fact, an occupying military force who were also never asked to intervene in Tir and who are the military arm of an organization that is possibly just as dangerous to the Clans as OT.

As Ravegrrl said, invader or liberator is in the eye of the beholder. If the Sentinels hadn't enacted their anti-neutral policy then they would have been hailed as liberators of Tir by many people, as it is they are reviled as invaders in a city they had every right to enter.

I, for one, was sorry to see the CoA attempts to secure Tir fail and, as I've stated before, I want the Sentinels out of Tir. Actually, I'd like to see them out of any civilian areas as their tendancy to treat everything as a military action makes them unsuitable for civilian guard duties.

[Sumokan]

Greetings,

Posted by:Lexusstreak
haha sumokan, who gives a damn if clanners can't go to newland, you ever smelled the air around that place? it was more an omni tek city than anything else, you know it's true, because all i saw were Omni citizens sitting on the various rooftops consorting with each other...LONG before the sentinels ever showed up, so no no don't blame the clans for the start of this, the neutrals had already made a stand by having so many omni citizens strolling about their city. Tir is a much more prestine place than Newland will ever be, and I for one am glad that people like you will never walk it's streets.

I think you are using spourous logic, New Land was open to both clan and omni. In fact prior to the ICC whompa system there was more clan then omni. The fact that there was more omni then clan after the new whompa system was installed was not in any part our fault. Clan simply did not want to come there anymore in numbers.

If you dispised New Land so much, why do you walk the streets of Boralis? If Boralis was somehow closed to you, would that bring you to the bargaining table? Please answer carefully I await your response.

Sincerely, Sumokan of Elite Operations

[Duzytato]

Originally posted by Sumokan
If Boralis was somehow closed to you, would that bring you to the bargaining table? Please answer carefully I await your response.

Sincerely, Sumokan of Elite Operations

Uh Oh. I hope this doesn't mean what I think it means.

[Nursedaou]

Originally posted by Tifanyx



Uh Oh. I hope this doesn't mean what I think it means.

Let it mean what I think it means. I welcome a conflict over this. If West Athen were closed off to you, would you feel less high and mighty?


¤these are my opinions and not necessarilly those of Unity of the Rose¤