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Thread: Who are the real thugs?

  1. #21
    Originally posted by Savoy


    Well if fancy costumed nutcases with delusions of nobility is the best you got, I guess its the best you got.

    Still, ever felt the urge to sneak into Camelot, go up to one of these lords or ladies and whisper "Psst... you great, great grandfather was a notum miner." then run?

    Savoy
    No, I hadn't thought of that one.

    I have however constantly had to battle the urge to yell, "Now go away! Or I shall taunt you a second time!" when fighting over the box room in their basement.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
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    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  2. #22
    Tifanyx, I respect attempting to gain support from either neutral affiliations or Omni-Tek, but don't you think alienating our own people is the wrong way to achieve this goal? How many clans will the 'moderate' clans stab in the back so they can have their way?

    Braedon, shooting Omni that enter Tir "is...against everything the Clans are supposed to stand for" too. But, I don't see you standing against that. In fact, none of the 'moderate' clans stand against that.

    'Moderates' claim to want peace, yet use violence. 'Moderates' claim to want free travel, yet continue to oppress those (extremist, Sentinels and Omni-Tek) that don't support the 'moderate' view.

    Don't think any of us here are getting any bluer talking about Silverstone and the Sentinels. This is no longer about them and what kind of people they are. This is about 'moderate' clans and what kind of people they are.

    Fixerben, I'll requote my exact words. "I can't agree to the 'slaughter of neutrals is wrong', seeing as how such neutral terrorist coalitions exist as BORPAC, but can agree that attacking and/or killing those that truely have no stance in the conflict is wrong." So, I have stated what they are doing is wrong to some degree.

    I have also said, "I accept the Sentinels because they support our notum mining goals, and because they keep our captial city safe. I disagree with their views to attack those that truely have no stance in the conflict. However, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. If that means the blood of a few must shed for our greater cause, then so be it."

    Jypsie, take your Omni-Tek recruiting ad somewhere else, please.

    Jynne, I agree that "Lord Galahad's men are strong and experienced fighters and well-able to defend the city." But these are the same people that let Omni-Tek employees roam freely throughout their castle. If they don't kick Omni out of their castle, then how can we be sure they will kick Omni out of Tir?

  3. #23
    Originally posted by Cemetarygate
    Jynne, I agree that "Lord Galahad's men are strong and experienced fighters and well-able to defend the city." But these are the same people that let Omni-Tek employees roam freely throughout their castle. If they don't kick Omni out of their castle, then how can we be sure they will kick Omni out of Tir?
    Blame the suppression-gas generator in the castle. It seems to be faulty - the areas where the Knights are guarding are 100% gas no-fighting zones, while the unguarded basement and dungeons is under-surpressed to 25%.

    OOC - It totally doesn't make sense that the Knights guards inside the doors aren't chopping up omnis But FC no doubt made it that way to make it easier for omnis to come there and pvp. As we all know FC wants us PvPing and for a long time tarasque was one of the only places "non hardcore pvper" people would go fight. So it's a game design decision to let omnis in without being attacked by guards.

    But it does leave us with a weird situation in an rp sense, because as you pointed out... it doesn't make sense for the knights to let omnis wander around the castle without getting attacked.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
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  4. #24

    Re: Who are the real thugs?

    Your logic is quite faulty...

    1. The Sentinels are killers of inocents...Neutrals that travel through Tir in NO way endanger the residents of Tir.

    2. The Sentinels came to Tir univited, I don't recall the residents of Tir expressing their desire to exclude Neutrals from Tir. Do you?

    3. This has nothing to do with 'moderate clans' forcing their viewpoints on anyone. There are criminals on both sides. Anyone that indescriminately slaughters innocent travelers is a criminal in any free and civilized society. I always thought that the Clans stood for freedom...perhaps some don't though, but in my mind that makes them little different than OT.

    This clanner will continue to rid her world of criminals, despots and thugs...be they OT, Neutrals or Clans. I do not show allegence to just anyone that wears a Clan flag...on the contrary there are Clanners that are de****able and the Sentinels fall into that category.

    And you don't have to support my 'moderate' viewpoint...I've never attacked anyone for disagreeing. But you start opening fire on innocents of ANY type and I'll consider you nothing more than a murderer and attempt to dispose of you just as I would any disease carrying vermin infesting my home.

    Originally posted by Cemetarygate
    An interesting point, Sentinels don't attack clan*, was recently made which lead to draw upon the following thoughts.

    True, the Sentinels do not attack clan. In fact, Sentinels don't even threaten to use violence against clans. 'Moderate' clans, however, do use violence against clan. So, who are the real thugs, the 'moderate' clans or the Sentinels?

    The 'moderate' clans label those that don't support their viewpoints as non clan. Being classified as non clan means 'okay' for them to attack clans. The Sentinels don't support the 'moderate' clan viewpoint and thus have found themselves the target of violence from the 'moderates'. So, anyone that doesn't support the 'moderate' viewpoint should beware as they might find themselves under attack.

    The 'moderate' clans also claim they are looking for a 'peaceful' solution to the conflict. Of course, preaching for a 'peaceful' solution all the while attacking the Sentinels. (Rather ironic, wouldn't you say?)

    The Sentinels, on the other hand, do not attack clans for any reasons. Well, except to defend themselves. Which, mostly has been from the 'moderate' clans.

    To the clans, when you walk through Tir do you feel safe? Do you fear the Sentinels will attack you? Granted, when you walk through 5% suppression you must watch out for Omni, but do you now look out for the 'moderate' clan as well? Do you fear 'moderate' clans will attack you because you don't support their views?

    So, I ask again, who are the real thugs, the 'moderate' clans or the Sentinels?

    (edit: grammer/spelling)

    ( *Lexusstreak - http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...hreadid=114940 )

  5. #25
    Wrong Wolfen, they are criminals that took over a city on their on accord, uninvited.

    And Silverstone has stated that Neutrals are the enemy because they haven't taken a side with us...the old "if you're not for us then your against us" juvinile dribble.

    It is the duty of ever civilized freedom-loving clanner (and I sure thought freedom is what we were about) to rid their society of criminals, thugs and despots. The Sentinels fall under this category.

    How can you claim to be fighting for freedom from oppression and support Drakonian measure such as those the Sentinels have forced upon Tir? Do you somehow believe that freedom only applies to Clanners? How very narrow-minded, remove the blinders from your eyes.

    The more I see of some of my fellow Clanners the less difference I see between them and OT...just more despotism under a different banner, still the results are all the same.

    And, BTW, I am for freedom of travel for ALL of Rubika through Clan cities. Let those that begin hostilites be targeted by guards, not those that only want to travel, shop, do business and visit friends and relations. If we stand for freedom then let us make a statement for freedom...open ALL Clan cities for free travel for ALL people of Rubika. Or, are you simply too frightened of such a proposal?

    Originally posted by Wolfen
    This is a matter I've not commented on much before, mainly becasue the biggest effect it's had on me has been to make doing business in Tir a pain in the arse with Sentinel guards on every damned street corner.

    But, you're all right. Different viewpoints maybe, but all right.

    Cemetarygate is correct, the rapid spread of inter-clan violence sparked by this situation is wrong, just as wrong as anything the Sentinels are accused of. There is even a case to say that the Sentinels attackers have taken a step beyond the original occupation of Tir and are committing even worse acts than the Sentinels.

    Think of this. The Sentinels have announced their intention to keep all non-Clan personnel out of Tir, using violence if necessary. It is the choice of any Omni or Neutral to come to Tir, knowing full well that they will come under fire, just as it is my choice to enter any Omni city knowing the same. The choice in both cases is with the supposed 'victim'. The Clans that choose to express their disagreement with the Sentinels through the barrel of a gun make a choice to go to Tir and murder Sentinels, futilely to boot. If you're Clan had control of Tir, and it's leaders gave the order to keep all Omni personnel, leets and red-haired people out of the city then your guards would open fire on those Leets and redheads if they entered Tir, or they wouldn't be acting as members of that Clan.

    Fisk's barely coherent rantings aside, has anyone spoken to Silverstone himself and gotten his arguements for why Neutral citizens are regarded as hostiles? Or why they decided to come to Tir in the first place, other than that amusing fiction about freeing the city and defending it against the terrible corporate lackeys, what do they want Tir for?

    If I were still Neutral, I would view travelling to Tir to do business as entering a hostile city, just as I now view entering Omni-1 or Rome. Not because it is a Clan city but because it is a Sentinel city. Whether the Sentinels are wrong or right in limiting access to Tir to Clanners only makes no difference to fact that anyone that travels to Tir with the express purpose of killing Sentinel guards is committing an act of premeditated murder against other Clanners. Any attempt to justify this by declaring the Sentinels 'non-Clan' because you don't agree with their politics and tactics is tantamount to declaring that the Clans are dead and we may all just as well pack up and join the corporation, or emigrate, since it denies any viewpoint on the matter but your own.

    Killing Sentinels will just drive Silverstone and his merry men into a more isolationist stance, denying the hope of negotiation and eventually making a Clan civil war inevitable, and the only winners there will be Omni-Tek when Omni-AF walk in an mop up after our most militarily powerful Clans have decimated each other.

    On the other hand, I want the Sentinels out of Tir as bad as anyone. Their occupation could have been a good thing, when it first expelled the ICC and set up a working defence of the city again, but their hard line stance has destroyed Tir as a center of trade and industry. I would support any plan that removes these extremists and replaces them with a better alternative. I do not regard the ICC as a better choice however.

    It's sad that some Neutrals have chosen to 'defend' themselves by creating a similar situation in Newland, and sadder that they chose the forces they did to accomplish it. I had little trust in ICC after their history, and I have no faith in Loren Warr's intention to leave Newland any time before she, and her backers, are ready.

    ((Post up to this point written just after Jypsie but transmission delayed))

    The Knights would seem to be an excellent choice for guardians of Tir, they specialize in close-quarters fighting and so would be a better guard or police force than the Sentinels and their flamers, unless Lord Galahad has a secret agenda of his own of course.
    Last edited by Nelida; Apr 2nd, 2003 at 19:36:19.

  6. #26
    Originally posted by Cemetarygate
    Braedon, shooting Omni that enter Tir "is...against everything the Clans are supposed to stand for" too. But, I don't see you standing against that. In fact, none of the 'moderate' clans stand against that.

    'Moderates' claim to want peace, yet use violence. 'Moderates' claim to want free travel, yet continue to oppress those (extremist, Sentinels and Omni-Tek) that don't support the 'moderate' view.

    Don't think any of us here are getting any bluer talking about Silverstone and the Sentinels. This is no longer about them and what kind of people they are. This is about 'moderate' clans and what kind of people they are.
    Actually, I personally do NOT support the killing of Omni employees in suppression gas protected Clan cities. The reason you don't hear me speak out against this is rather simple...I know well that this view of mine is very much a minority amongst Clanners. I can live with that. I am a supporter of a democratic society, so I can't very well go around ignoring the will of the majority. This conflict orginated as one against the Corporation, so I can understand my fellow Clanners not wishing them to have access to our cities. But, again, so long as the suppression gas is in place...I couldn't care less. I don't fear Omni propaganda...which is about all they can bring to our cities.

    On the other hand, I feel very comfortable stating that the majority of Clanners did not and do not wish Neutrals to be slayed on sight in our cities. Silverstone chose that himself, not the majority of the Clans.

    For someone who wants to have a discussion about what moderate clans do or don't stand for, you sure seem to be doing a lot of assuming...at least where my org is concerned. By throwing several orgs into a "moderate" category and subjecting your opinions on them, you're falling into the same trap so many Clanners do. Not all Neutrals think and act alike. Not even all Omni think and act alike. And, yes...all Moderate Clans do not think and act alike.

    It's not black and white. That mindset will cause this war to never end.
    Last edited by Braedon; Apr 2nd, 2003 at 20:03:50.
    The Deacon of Doom
    www.gridstream.org

  7. #27
    Wolfen, first, very well said.

    Second, yes, I have spoken to Silverstone as to why he keeps neutrals out of Tir. His reason, they do not support our cause. He came to Tir in the first place because he didn't approve of how Omni-Tek was slowly sinking their claws into us (roaming freely throughout Tir is how took that).

    Yet, 'moderates' claim Silverstone's wants to make Tir his own 'playground,' and oppress neutrals. This is how the situation seems, but is far from the truth.

    Jynne, blame the gas? Why not blame the guards? They could very well move down to the 25% suppression areas and exterminate the Omnis. Yet they don't. Maybe Galahad set up 100% suppression and the guards stand there because they don't like confrontation? Maybe they really like Omni? Who knows. The point, Knights are questionable as to whether or not they are the best choice.

    (( Agreed. I think FC put the guards in 100% so that Omni could raid Tarasque as easily as clan. I'm RPing to my advantage though. Mwuhahahahaha. ))

    Nelida, regarding your first point. What about the neutrals who have taken a stand against clan? Will the 'moderate' clans allow them free access to the clan capital city?

    Second point, my residence is in Tir. I have and am expressing my desire to keep Omni and extremist neutrals out of Tir. Fortunatly, the Sentinels answered the call.

    Third point, this has everything to do with the 'moderates' forcing their viewpoints. 'Moderates' want the Sentinels out of Tir to put their own guards in place. The Knights did nothing for me when I was attacked by Omni in Camelot Castle, so I would not trust them standing guard in my back yard. So, I question the merits of the Knights, and the 'moderates' still attempt to force them on me as my protector.

  8. #28
    The Sentinels didn't come uninvited, the majority of the clans wanted ICC out of our capitol and The Sentinels acted upon that request.

    Yes the laws they set down are too strict, but it is however their laws and the guardmens are simply upholding them.
    By killing guardsmen on their duty you are far worse than those who engage combat against people who break their superior laws.

    If you don't like Silverstone's reign in Tir, try to gather the clans and find a better alternative, random killing of guardsmen makes yourself a criminal.

    It is not up to each one of us to make up the laws of which the society should live by.
    And if you think the killing of Neutrals in Tir city is a crime that should be punished by death just because you think so...are you not then a despot like those you claim to fighting?
    All the ducks are swimming in the water

  9. #29
    Ravegrrl -
    Rarely do I find myself on the same side of an argument as a clanner. Perhaps you were born Omni? Few clanners are so respectful of law and order...

    Should you decide to return to gainful employment, please allow me to provide you with a shiny new token board.

    Right now, as Omni Employees see it, Silverstone and his Sentinels are the only real power in clan territory right now, and as they are brutish guerilla style oponents, it seems unlikely that it will cange. Combatants of that sort rarely compromise or negotiate, as they feel that to do so would betray the twisted ideals they fight for.
    Bliqz, Agent, Omni, Atlantean, "Iron Chef of Rubi-Ka"
    God is a bullet.

    ((The IC only RP forum is back. Bliqz is an Omni Extremist, and his posts IN THAT FORUM reflect that attitude. I can be reached by PM if you feel I have personaly offended you, and I will be happy to change/temper my post. Thank you, and have fun!))

  10. #30
    Originally posted by Ravegrrl
    Yes the laws they set down are too strict, but it is however their laws and the guardmens are simply upholding them.
    Seems to me that blindly following orders and not questioning them is an Omni trait.
    The Deacon of Doom
    www.gridstream.org

  11. #31

    Re: Re: Who are the real thugs?

    Originally posted by Nelida
    Your logic is quite faulty...
    Maybe. But yours certainly is.

    Originally posted by Nelida
    1. The Sentinels are killers of inocents...Neutrals that travel through Tir in NO way endanger the residents of Tir.
    A blanket statement like this can't help but be incorrect. MOST Neutrals that wish to travel through Tir are no threat, but some are. With no clear way to tell the Trader from the Terrorist the Sentinels, who have control of the city and it's security, have decided to allow none to enter. All Neutrals know this now so I have to say that any that attempt to enter the city are either very sure of themselves or are assisted suicides.

    And no, I don't believe it's the best way, or agree with the Sentinel's stance in this instance, but until we throw away the emotional rhetoric and attempts to make all Clanners feel guilty until they agree to blow away a Sentinel we don't have a hope of persuading the Sentinels to leave. At the best we will alienate them so badly that they pull back into their bases, including Tir, and stop ANYONE from entering.

    Originally posted by Nelida
    2. The Sentinels came to Tir univited, I don't recall the residents of Tir expressing their desire to exclude Neutrals from Tir. Do you?
    You have a short memory. At the time there were a hell of a lot of Clanners howling about the Omni presence in Tir, and about the ICC 'invasion' of our capital. I distinctly remember some people at the time saying 'beware of your wishes' to those asking for a force to expel Omnis from Tir...

    Maybe no one asked for Neutrals to be excluded but a lot of people asked for the Omnis to be removed, and they weren't to specific about who should do it with the exception of CAS who tried to set up a replacement for the CoT's guards before the Sentinels arrived.

    Originally posted by Nelida
    3. This has nothing to do with 'moderate clans' forcing their viewpoints on anyone. There are criminals on both sides. Anyone that indescriminately slaughters innocent travelers is a criminal in any free and civilized society. I always thought that the Clans stood for freedom...perhaps some don't though, but in my mind that makes them little different than OT.

    This clanner will continue to rid her world of criminals, despots and thugs...be they OT, Neutrals or Clans. I do not show allegence to just anyone that wears a Clan flag...on the contrary there are Clanners that are de****able and the Sentinels fall into that category.
    That makes all guards and many of the citizens of both sides criminals, I expect to see you and those that agree with you slaughtering all Omni and Clan guards 24/7 from now on. The Sentinels have made the same military decision as many other military groups, on both sides, have made or would make if they could. Right or wrong, they see Neutrals as a potentially hostile force.

    Originally posted by Nelida
    And you don't have to support my 'moderate' viewpoint...I've never attacked anyone for disagreeing. But you start opening fire on innocents of ANY type and I'll consider you nothing more than a murderer and attempt to dispose of you just as I would any disease carrying vermin infesting my home.
    As I said above, you have just pledged yourself to the murder of every Omni and Clan guard on the planet, and many other citizens on both sides. And leave the Leets out of this.

    I agree with the need for moderation in the policing of Tir if it is to regain it's status as a centre of commerce and a political centre for the Clans, but to declare war on the Sentinels for enacting a military operation that many Clanners called for and carrying it out in the best fashion they can, militarily that is, will only lead to a growing seperation between the Sentinels and their supporters and the rest of the Clans. We cannot afford a full scale military uprising by a force as organised and powerful as the Sentinels, it would bleed us dry just as Omni-Tek regains it's power.

    Unless you think that such a war is unavoidable, and that you have the forces to fight it without losing the larger war against the corporation, then attacks on the Sentinels are self-defeating.

    The Sentinels must be removed by negotiation if possible, and another force must immediately take their place lest we allow ICC or Omni-Tek the chance to occupy Tir themselves.
    Wolfen.
    AKA Gridwolf. Fixer.
    AKA Beveridge. Engineer.
    AKA Razorstorm. Enforcer.
    AKA Blitzen, Trader.

    AKA Stonehand. Martial Artist.
    AKA Nanohive, Nanotechnician.
    AKA Misericorde, Agent.

  12. #32
    Well Cem, I understand your concerns. ((Damn Tara and suppression and FC! )). In my eyes the ideal would be for the Sentinels to change their rules of engagement to let Neutrals who don't act aggressively and/or su****iously pass with an ID check.

    It would be better for the Clan cause in many ways, including as a demonstration of our commitment to our ideals. It is much better for our cause if we win converts from the Neutrals, rather than making enemies of them as we have been. And of course it is best of all for our cause if such a change in their procedures were to quell the anti-Sentinels feelings of other Clanners and end or reduce our infighting over the issues.

    But if the Sentinels can't bring themselves to do that, then there are other major Clans capable of taking up the defense of Tir and keeping Omni out, and who aren't as hostile toward Neutrals. The Knights are, at least, the most obvious of these Clans, but there are other options as well - New Dawn, for example.

    In the end... it's my personal feeling that maintaining the unity of purpose and ideals among the Clans, and keeping our disagreements from erupting into battles, is far more important than keeping Neutrals out of Tir. I've found the saying, "War does not decide who is right, but who is left" to be very, very wise of late.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
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    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  13. #33
    Hahahahahhahhahahha, nelida says she'll attack criminals, eh, then maybe she should turn that gun on herself then, as I recall she is a smuggler who brings illegal and sometimes harmful products to her fellow clanspeople. Neutrals simply put do not have a place in Tir, tir is for clanspersons, not neutrals, neutrals have no side and therefor should not be there. You don't pound on Omni Pol's doors because their guards won't let you in Omni trade do you? no, because you know for a fact you should not be there in the first place. Let me clear something up, I don't Hate Neutrals, I am quite fine with neutrals as long as they respect the sacred cities of the clans. The clans stand for freedom you say...look at that quote again, The CLANS stand for freedom, it does not say clan and neutral. Neutrals have nob usiness in our city for quite the obvious reasons. for one, what do they hope to gain by going to tir? they can't use any of the shops if I recall because the veondors for the longest did not really want neutral business, do you barge into the stores,and the armor merchant shops and kill them because they refuse their business?


    The whole planet is in a state of warfare, and in war you had better damn well chose a side or get caught int he fire, because the battles will/do rage into neutral cities, and if you don't have a strong opinion either way on the conflict, the war machines will just roll over you I am sad to say. you say youa re trying to win the neutrals over as allies right? well if they chose a side thent hat makes them that particular side and no longer neutral, I don't think a real neutral would even gof or that, so it's a vain attempt, they will always straddle the fence and can't be trusted. Now as for the moderates, there is nothing moderate about them at all, I've seen them kill time and time again and then profess peace from their hypocritical lips, Vixentrox and Fixerben are the two worst of these kinds. At least I tell you where I stand, I don't lie to you then do something completely outrageous behind your back. If the two above mentioned people want peace, then I suggest you put down your guns..hmm no? I didn't think you would.
    "Did I tell you that you could speak?....then why are you still talking?."

  14. #34
    Braedon, the "majority of Clanners" you know are composed of people that "do not wish Neutrals to be slayed on sight in our cities." Which is a minority group of the entirety of the clans. Instead of assuming this small group speaks for the majority of the clans, why don't you ask all the clans?

    And please don't insult my intelligence by stating my words are assumptions. The actions I speak of are well documented, and those who have committed those actions openly admit having done and support those actions. That makes them facts, not assumptions.

    You're statement that I'm referring to your organization is incorrect as I have not stated any one person or organization. These people know who they are, so I have no need to name them. Also, I have been using quotations around 'moderates' because I'm not sure what else to call this group of persons I'm referring to. I've simply chosen 'moderates' because this group is composed mostly of 'moderates' by your defination. So, know it was not my intention to label your group of 'moderates' within my group of 'moderates.' (( I hope that made sense. ))

  15. #35
    Bliqz:

    Yes I was born Omni, and I do believe a society cannot function without laws.
    I also believe in a Rubi-Ka ruled by the people for the people, and thus I left the Corporation.

    Braedon:

    Yes I do not believe in blindy following orders myself, but I do not view people who does follow orders as criminals either. I do believe that persuasion and information is a better method of making people realise their wrongdoing is a far better way than poiting a gun at them and pulling the trigger.

    Who would you go with, a leader who provides you with money, housing and safety, or some selfproclaimed vigilante shooting your head off?


    The situation in Tir must be solved, but violence is not the way.
    The Sentinels is the strongest clan today, and also the one with the best technology, we need them on other side, alienating them by the use of force is not in the clans best interest.
    All the ducks are swimming in the water

  16. #36
    Originally posted by Cemetarygate
    [B]Tifanyx, I respect attempting to gain support from either neutral affiliations or Omni-Tek, but don't you think alienating our own people is the wrong way to achieve this goal? How many clans will the 'moderate' clans stab in the back so they can have their way?
    Alienating is the wrong way, BUT as I said earlier, any clan/clan fighting I see as a family dispute, one that will work itself out naturally. Its easier to fix alienation issues within the family than it is outside the family. Sometimes people take drastic measures to fight for what they believe in. The Sentinels are just bad for the clans and I wish they would just go away. Once they do, the clans can finally come together and go after the real problem, Omni-Tek.

  17. #37
    and if the sentinels ever went away you still wouldn't focus on omni tek, you'd just go after clanners that didn't wear the same after shave as you. Meaning you would still not focus ont he real problem, you'd still nit pick at those of your own faction cause you fear facing the real problem, the sentinels never told you to stop focusing on the clan/omni conflict, that was your choosing. People blame every last problem with the clans on the sentinels, and they honestly don't know why. Fact is they have done more good than what you propose as evil. As a matter of fact, most of the senior clan members proudly wear their armor, I hope that if I return to rubi0ka one day I will most likely wear it proudly too. They shoot a couple of neutrals, so what..clans kill clans everyday, clans kill omnis etc, death is all around you, murder is murder, killing is killing, just because you slap an affiliation on someone and call them the enemy does not change the fact that it is death all the same, when that round is discharged from that gun, does that round know or care who it hits? the person behind that gun is calling the shots. the end result is murder.


    You can not, EVER EVER say that the sentinels are thugs because we have ALL killed in one way or the other, and I am willing to say more so over that none of this death was in self defense, but a deliberate hunting down of another being and terminating his or her life. So quiet your mouths before you label someone else as thugs, your hands are not so blood free.
    Last edited by Lexusstreak; Apr 2nd, 2003 at 20:57:44.
    "Did I tell you that you could speak?....then why are you still talking?."

  18. #38
    Tifanyx, certainly you can patch up alienation within family. But, you've chosen a method of dispute which goes far beyond verbal dispute. You're literally killing people. Do you think your family appreciates you killing them? Do you think they will forgive so easily when, you've gone beyond the scope of verbal assalt, you now cause them physical pain and anquish as well?

    Being a criminal is wrong, but that doesn't justfiy you too becomming a criminal. Being a murderer is wrong, and that too doesn't justify you becomming a murderer.

    But, I guess it doesn't matter. The 'moderates' will say and do whatever is necessary so long as they get their way, right? And they have shown they will do (lie and murder) what is necessary to impose their will which makes them bigger thugs than anyone I know.
    Last edited by Cemetarygate; Apr 2nd, 2003 at 21:52:12.

  19. #39
    "sacred cities of the clans"???? OMG Lexus is now making this a religious war? Sacred cities indeed...what a joke. You will seriously find any reason to hate and wage war won't you?

    God help me should I have to live in a society of Lexus' creation...maybe one day Lexus would like to segregate nanomages, solitus, opi and troxes also? A separate city for each Lexus? Shoot any of the others that leave 'their' appointed cites? Afterall they HAVE been told what happens if they leave 'their' cities. Why not Lexus? Is it a whole lot different?

    Lexus you are a despot wanna-be, no different should you get your way than OT.

    Originally posted by Lexusstreak
    Hahahahahhahhahahha, nelida says she'll attack criminals, eh, then maybe she should turn that gun on herself then, as I recall she is a smuggler who brings illegal and sometimes harmful products to her fellow clanspeople. Neutrals simply put do not have a place in Tir, tir is for clanspersons, not neutrals, neutrals have no side and therefor should not be there. You don't pound on Omni Pol's doors because their guards won't let you in Omni trade do you? no, because you know for a fact you should not be there in the first place. Let me clear something up, I don't Hate Neutrals, I am quite fine with neutrals as long as they respect the sacred cities of the clans. The clans stand for freedom you say...look at that quote again, The CLANS stand for freedom, it does not say clan and neutral. Neutrals have nob usiness in our city for quite the obvious reasons. for one, what do they hope to gain by going to tir? they can't use any of the shops if I recall because the veondors for the longest did not really want neutral business, do you barge into the stores,and the armor merchant shops and kill them because they refuse their business?


    The whole planet is in a state of warfare, and in war you had better damn well chose a side or get caught int he fire, because the battles will/do rage into neutral cities, and if you don't have a strong opinion either way on the conflict, the war machines will just roll over you I am sad to say. you say youa re trying to win the neutrals over as allies right? well if they chose a side thent hat makes them that particular side and no longer neutral, I don't think a real neutral would even gof or that, so it's a vain attempt, they will always straddle the fence and can't be trusted. Now as for the moderates, there is nothing moderate about them at all, I've seen them kill time and time again and then profess peace from their hypocritical lips, Vixentrox and Fixerben are the two worst of these kinds. At least I tell you where I stand, I don't lie to you then do something completely outrageous behind your back. If the two above mentioned people want peace, then I suggest you put down your guns..hmm no? I didn't think you would.

  20. #40

    Re: Re: Re: Who are the real thugs?

    Well, yes, I agree...it makes them all criminals. Any guard that kills without provocation based solely on association and without arrest, trial and conviction. It seems we have a planet full of guards that take it upon themselves to dish out punishment.

    The Sentinels didn't ASK to come to Tir and help. Nor did they ASK the residents of Tir HOW they would like the job done. Why in hell should we molly coddle the Sentinels? They are extremists they are invaders and they are killers.

    Ian Warr's thugs in NLC are no different. OT guards are, imho, the same.

    I have NO problem with any of these guards shooting those that attack citizens of their respective cities.

    I even have NO problem with Templus visiting clan cities (and she broke my ribs and knocked my teeth out) as long as she isn't kidnapping me or otherwise interfering with the lives of peaceful people.

    ONLY under those types of conditions do I condone ANY guard on RK opening fire.

    There are as many clan criminals as there are neutral criminals...I find it ludicrous to kill all neutrals setting foot in Tir because some very small minority MIGHT be criminals. Are there really any of you so pitiful that you feel safer knowing neutrals are excluded from Tir? Safer in Tir than in Old Athens or West Athens? Bah...what drivle you all spew.

    Originally posted by Wolfen

    Maybe. But yours certainly is.


    A blanket statement like this can't help but be incorrect. MOST Neutrals that wish to travel through Tir are no threat, but some are. With no clear way to tell the Trader from the Terrorist the Sentinels, who have control of the city and it's security, have decided to allow none to enter. All Neutrals know this now so I have to say that any that attempt to enter the city are either very sure of themselves or are assisted suicides.

    And no, I don't believe it's the best way, or agree with the Sentinel's stance in this instance, but until we throw away the emotional rhetoric and attempts to make all Clanners feel guilty until they agree to blow away a Sentinel we don't have a hope of persuading the Sentinels to leave. At the best we will alienate them so badly that they pull back into their bases, including Tir, and stop ANYONE from entering.


    You have a short memory. At the time there were a hell of a lot of Clanners howling about the Omni presence in Tir, and about the ICC 'invasion' of our capital. I distinctly remember some people at the time saying 'beware of your wishes' to those asking for a force to expel Omnis from Tir...

    Maybe no one asked for Neutrals to be excluded but a lot of people asked for the Omnis to be removed, and they weren't to specific about who should do it with the exception of CAS who tried to set up a replacement for the CoT's guards before the Sentinels arrived.


    That makes all guards and many of the citizens of both sides criminals, I expect to see you and those that agree with you slaughtering all Omni and Clan guards 24/7 from now on. The Sentinels have made the same military decision as many other military groups, on both sides, have made or would make if they could. Right or wrong, they see Neutrals as a potentially hostile force.



    As I said above, you have just pledged yourself to the murder of every Omni and Clan guard on the planet, and many other citizens on both sides. And leave the Leets out of this.

    I agree with the need for moderation in the policing of Tir if it is to regain it's status as a centre of commerce and a political centre for the Clans, but to declare war on the Sentinels for enacting a military operation that many Clanners called for and carrying it out in the best fashion they can, militarily that is, will only lead to a growing seperation between the Sentinels and their supporters and the rest of the Clans. We cannot afford a full scale military uprising by a force as organised and powerful as the Sentinels, it would bleed us dry just as Omni-Tek regains it's power.

    Unless you think that such a war is unavoidable, and that you have the forces to fight it without losing the larger war against the corporation, then attacks on the Sentinels are self-defeating.

    The Sentinels must be removed by negotiation if possible, and another force must immediately take their place lest we allow ICC or Omni-Tek the chance to occupy Tir themselves.
    Last edited by Nelida; Apr 2nd, 2003 at 22:28:45.

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