Who are the real thugs?

[Cemetarygate]

An interesting point, Sentinels don't attack clan*, was recently made which lead to draw upon the following thoughts.

True, the Sentinels do not attack clan. In fact, Sentinels don't even threaten to use violence against clans. 'Moderate' clans, however, do use violence against clan. So, who are the real thugs, the 'moderate' clans or the Sentinels?

The 'moderate' clans label those that don't support their viewpoints as non clan. Being classified as non clan means 'okay' for them to attack clans. The Sentinels don't support the 'moderate' clan viewpoint and thus have found themselves the target of violence from the 'moderates'. So, anyone that doesn't support the 'moderate' viewpoint should beware as they might find themselves under attack.

The 'moderate' clans also claim they are looking for a 'peaceful' solution to the conflict. Of course, preaching for a 'peaceful' solution all the while attacking the Sentinels. (Rather ironic, wouldn't you say?)

The Sentinels, on the other hand, do not attack clans for any reasons. Well, except to defend themselves. Which, mostly has been from the 'moderate' clans.

To the clans, when you walk through Tir do you feel safe? Do you fear the Sentinels will attack you? Granted, when you walk through 5% suppression you must watch out for Omni, but do you now look out for the 'moderate' clan as well? Do you fear 'moderate' clans will attack you because you don't support their views?

So, I ask again, who are the real thugs, the 'moderate' clans or the Sentinels?

(edit: grammer/spelling)

( *Lexusstreak - http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...hreadid=114940 )

[Duzytato]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate

So, I ask again, who are the real thugs, the 'moderate' clans or the Sentinels?

The Sentinels are, and always will be thugs. The 'moderate' clanners as you call them simply want the Sentinels out of Tir. Tir was never under seige, the was no reason for the Sentinels to arrive. The only thing they do is kill innocent Neutrals. For what purpose? Because they deem the "fence sitters" as problems? The problem is Omni-Tek, not the Neutrals. Have the Sentinels attack Omni-Ent or Rome if they are so worried about Omni-Tek.

Due to the Sentinels meddling there is intense strain on the Clan/Neutral relationship. These "moderate" clans are trying to rectify the situation. Once the Sents leave, clans can go to Newland and Neuts can travel safely to Tir.

The question shouldn't be who are the "real thugs"?, It should be who are more of a problem, The Sentinels or the "moderate" clanners? I say Sentinels.

[Raveleet]

Two wrongs don't make a right or something like that is something I was allways told when I grew up.

That you don't agree with The Sentinels and how they deal with neutrals in Tir, doesn't give you permission to play judge and executioner on The Sentinels guardsmen, they are just doing their job as members of The Sentinels and following Simon Silverstones orders.

I for one am more happy knowing a strong militant force are protecting our capitol rather than the ICC guards that the Sentinels threw out.
I may not agree with killing of neutrals who want to go visit Tir, but I do not see a fight amongst clans as a solution.

The Sentinels attacks any non clan who go to Tir, and this is not a secret to anyone, noone is forcing Omnis or Neutrals to go to Tir.

The 'moderate' clans attacks and kills clan guards protecting our
city because they don't agree with their superiors politics.

I'd say the guard killers are the thugs.

And this is my own opinion and does not represent Unity of the Rose.

[Cemetarygate]

Tifanyx, to make sure I understand what you're saying, clan/neutral relations are more important than clan/clan relations? The 'moderate' clans would rather degrade clan/clan relations in the hopes to enhance clan/neutral relations?

People have said that unity is one goal we should achieve in order to further our primary objectives. How does tension between 'moderate' and 'aggressive' clans achieve unity for our people?

If you say, "should be who are more of a problem," then I would have to answer the 'moderate' clans. Our people would be more unified if the 'moderate' clans weren't attacking those that opposed the 'moderate' view.

[Duzytato]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate
Tifanyx, to make sure I understand what you're saying, clan/neutral relations are more important than clan/clan relations? The 'moderate' clans would rather degrade clan/clan relations in the hopes to enhance clan/neutral relations?

People have said that unity is one goal we should achieve in order to further our primary objectives. How does tension between 'moderate' and 'aggressive' clans achieve unity for our people?

If you say, "should be who are more of a problem," then I would have to answer the 'moderate' clans. Our people would be more unified if the 'moderate' clans weren't attacking those that opposed the 'moderate' view.

In any given conflict you are going to have sides. Sides for a purpose and sides against that purpose. Within each side you'll have a whole host of different opinions, but the common goal is still the same. Moderate Clan & Extremist Clan, but still CLAN. The tension will be there regardless. However, both sides seem to realize that the side that "controls" the Neutrals will win the war.

Control may be too strong a word, but the object is to get the neutrals to JOIN your side, not alienate them. The Sentinels are basically telling the Neuts, "Screw you, we don't need you". When in fact, a majority of the clans realize that they need the neutrals.

So yes, I guess I'm saying its more important to strengthen clan/neut relations than it is to strengthen clan/clan relations. I see the clan/clan as a small family fight that will work itself out naturally. The clan/neut thing should be rectified before we lose them officially to Omni-Tek.

I'm more in favor of the clan/neut thing because I was neutral, so I know how a neut thinks. In fact, I still think as a neut, so I guess that makes me a "moderate" clanner.

[Jazzas]

Neutrals hired mercs to kill clanners in Newlands...

Death to all neutrals

[Ashval]

Originally posted by Jazzas
Neutrals hired mercs to kill clanners in Newlands...

Death to all neutrals

After we started killing Neutrals indescriminately in Tir.

Look, I'm as pro-Clan as they come, but I have a hard time accepting this behavior from the Sentinels. Shooting Neutrals who enter our capital city on sight is...against everything the Clans are supposed to stand for. We're not murderers or oppressors.

I've seen you people argue about this till you're blue in the face, and it's pointless. I've heard demands for documentation on why Silverstone is a criminal. I find that appalling and silly. HE KILLS INNOCENT NEUTRALS. Hello? Are we the good guys or the bad guys in this conflict? How many of you have forgotten what it is we stand for? Oppression is the antithesis of the Clans. It really is...THAT SIMPLE.

If someone is Clan and supports shooting people in our capital city who pose no threat to us, then I don't consider them Clanners. You can say that's me passing my own judgement all you want, but my stance is accurate with what the Clan cause has and is supposed to be.

I denounce the Sentinels. I do not accept Silverstone's presence in Tir. If it wasn't for reclaim, he and his thugs wouldn't be there now. It has to be solved in an alternative way.

[Raveleet]

Yes shooting at neutrals who want to visit our capitol is wrong, and against the very ideals the clans was buildt upon, which is a Rubi-Ka ruled by the people who live here and not by some money hungry hypercorporation.

However, The Sentinels have decleared Tir a clan only city for as long as they keep guards there, Neutrals who want to visit does so at their own risk, as do clanners who want to visit Newland city these days.

I choose not to go to Newland cause I don't like getting shot at, as should any Neutral who don't like getting shot at avoid Tir city for time being.

I do not condone killing people who's only sin is to follow orders, be it mercenaries paid to keep clanners out of Newland, or Sentinels guards keeping Tir city clan only.

The problem should be addressed at a diplomatic level, by lowering ourselves down to their level and resolve to simple killing to achieve our goals we are not any better than those we claim to be thugs. In fact we become worse since we actively seek them out with the intent to kill, where the guardsmen and mercenaries doing their job and shoot at the people their superiours have decleared as enemies, if they are so foolish to enter either Tir or Newland city.

[Fixerben]

Fixerben clears his throat.

I dont know what is wrong with you Cem. You somehow still cant see what the Sentinels did, and are still doing as wrong. The Sentinels indiscriminately kill Neutrals. That is my biggest problem with them at the moment. If they didnt kill Neutrals I could accept their place in Tir. But as long as they stand in the Capitol of the Clans, that once stood for freedom, and kill those on this planet who dont want into our conflict, I can not support them.

[______________Jypsie]

Silverstone is a murderous madman. He is a tyrant. A True Tyrant. For so long, the Clans have fought blindly and with such passion against the Company without realising that the very path that they walked would lead to this state of being. You have enabled this to happen. You have become so concerned with personal freedom that you have become decadent and anarchaic.

The only recognised government you have ever had has been slain from within.

You are fighting for control of your Capitol City from someone you fear. Someone whom only rose to power because you allowed him to rise up. Those are Clan soldiers in his army.

None of you profess to have the answer and that is because none of you do.

Anarchy on Rubi-Ka will be ruled by those who have the largest army and armory behind them. Silverstone, and want to be tyrants like him.

For once, listen to reason and look at the Company. We are law, order, and progress. We are protection, guidence, and leadership. We do ask that you give yourself to being something larger than yourselves; To be a part of this greater being. To be a member of the corporate family. We require obedience, but in return, we grant safety, security. We require work, but in return we grant rewards, promotion, recognition.

The Clans will Crumble, Omni-Tek will Endure. Why? Because we are a part of something greater than ourselves. We will not be weakened by personal gain or ambition. Omni-Tek recognises that and stregthens it from within.


If you assist us, we will remove Silverstone. I think we can all agree on that.

[Nursedaou]

I joined the Clans to fight against a corporation I could no longer be a part of. I guess I am not as you. I abhor the thought of killing Sentinel's in Tir. I don't think that killing the guards of a faction that has given us a whole so much (tower technology, better armour as equipment, protection within our city from any Omni that comes walking in*) is being Clan. Jypsie is right, those that think murdering those protecting Tir and the Clans is the correct course of action should apply for corporate duty.




*ICC Guards in Tir

[UwensBack]

Correct... to an extent. Until you started bringing in that "OmniTek is your friend" crap. Don't try, for one second, to tell me that OmniTek is a family. Yes, some departments can become "family" in a sense, but not the corporation as a whole or even OTRK as a whole. And, Cris, when you finally got to "The Clans will crumble. OmniTek will endure" I just smiled.

In winning the war with the Sentinels we must take care not to lose the peace, as it were. If we allowed ourselves to become afraid of another group like the Sentinels we would become like the Sentinels. Leaders would hang the fear of "another Silverstone" over our heads and would enforce "security" measures until they become the next Silverstone except no one notices. Personal liberties must find the delicate balance with society's needs. This is not to say society can trample personal liberites, but we cannot let ourselves descend into anarchy over personal liberties. On the other hand we cannot sacrifice personal liberties to society. There is a balance and it has been found before.

Also, you are an intelligent person Cris. You cannot honestly believe that the clans will simply crumble and go away. As long as there is OmniTek, there will be Clans. Even after OmniTek is gone the clans will be around. I'm not saying I think OmniTek will be coming to an end anytime soon, considering their roughly 17,000 in business if I've got the the numbers right, but people are going to rebel against an authoritarian government as long as it continues to be authoritarian.

[BugLight]

To make Uwens statement a little easier on the brain:


As long as there are big companies... there will be people fighting against them...

[UwensBack]

Basically

[_______________Bliqz]

Originally posted by Fixerben
The Sentinels indiscriminately kill Neutrals.

No, not indiscriminately. Only the ones that chose to enter Tir.

Clan on clan violence is something I enjoy...like watching racing turtles, or a dog fight. Neuts may be second rank on the food chain, only slightly above clanners, but even they have the mental ability to chose to use that Whompah, or grid terminal...They get what they deserve.

Originally posted by Uwen
Correct... to an extent. Until you started bringing in that "OmniTek is your friend" crap. Don't try, for one second, to tell me that OmniTek is a family. Yes, some departments can become "family" in a sense, but not the corporation as a whole or even OTRK as a whole.

When the size of the corporation is as large and diverse as OTRK, it cannot be any other way. Daddy didnt leave the family behind to come to Rubi-Ka and work permanently, the entire family unit made the investment...Daddy sweeps the streets, Mommy manages the Bronto Burger, Sister and Brother go to OT-PS#21743 together and trade pudding pops with all the other kids. Family. Community. Friends...not quite the packs you clanners migrate about in, but if it helps you understand the social dynamic to draw a parallel, go right ahead.

[Jynne]

Unity of the Rose does not in any way support, condone, or encourage violence between Clanners. And most especially, we do not engage in it.

The only time it is ever justified to attack and kill another Clan member is in situations of extreme duress, such as when said person is a threat to others. Even then, immobilizing or mesmerizing the person involved would be preferable to slaying them.

Violence should always be one of the last resorts - if not the absolute last resorts - for settling problems, especially political disagreements. As Raveleet said - two wrongs do not make any rights.

Unity of the Rose does protest and oppose the killing of Neutrals in Tir. The Clan ideals of freedom and justice cannot be selectively applied, and in failing to uphold these principles as regards the Neutrals, Mister Silverstone and the Sentinels are failing the Clans as the caretakers of our capitol.

While there are certainly very legitimate military and security reasons to screen travelers in Tir, there are no good reasons for a "shoot on sight" policy as regards Neutrals. Some Neutrals are indeed spies, mercenaries, terrorists, or Omni sympathizers. But these people are a minority, and can be singled out via ID scans, while Neutrals who are truly Neutral, or are Clan sympathizers or simple traders can come and go with only a small inconvenience.

This would be the best course to handle the security of the Clan capitol. We hope that the Sentinels will do the responsible thing and change their treatment of the Neutrals to be more true to the ideals that give our existence as Clanners meaning.

If they cannot reconcile this with their own ideologies, then we suggest they turn over the patrolling of Tir to another of the major Clans, such as the Knights. Lord Galahad's men are strong and experienced fighters and well-able to defend the city, but they are also men of principle and honor.

In the end, however, Unity of the Rose will not raise arms against Clanners, or incite or encourage others to do so, except as a last resort in defense of ourselves or our allies and friends.

[______________Wolfen]

This is a matter I've not commented on much before, mainly becasue the biggest effect it's had on me has been to make doing business in Tir a pain in the arse with Sentinel guards on every damned street corner.

But, you're all right. Different viewpoints maybe, but all right.

Cemetarygate is correct, the rapid spread of inter-clan violence sparked by this situation is wrong, just as wrong as anything the Sentinels are accused of. There is even a case to say that the Sentinels attackers have taken a step beyond the original occupation of Tir and are committing even worse acts than the Sentinels.

Think of this. The Sentinels have announced their intention to keep all non-Clan personnel out of Tir, using violence if necessary. It is the choice of any Omni or Neutral to come to Tir, knowing full well that they will come under fire, just as it is my choice to enter any Omni city knowing the same. The choice in both cases is with the supposed 'victim'. The Clans that choose to express their disagreement with the Sentinels through the barrel of a gun make a choice to go to Tir and murder Sentinels, futilely to boot. If you're Clan had control of Tir, and it's leaders gave the order to keep all Omni personnel, leets and red-haired people out of the city then your guards would open fire on those Leets and redheads if they entered Tir, or they wouldn't be acting as members of that Clan.

Fisk's barely coherent rantings aside, has anyone spoken to Silverstone himself and gotten his arguements for why Neutral citizens are regarded as hostiles? Or why they decided to come to Tir in the first place, other than that amusing fiction about freeing the city and defending it against the terrible corporate lackeys, what do they want Tir for?

If I were still Neutral, I would view travelling to Tir to do business as entering a hostile city, just as I now view entering Omni-1 or Rome. Not because it is a Clan city but because it is a Sentinel city. Whether the Sentinels are wrong or right in limiting access to Tir to Clanners only makes no difference to fact that anyone that travels to Tir with the express purpose of killing Sentinel guards is committing an act of premeditated murder against other Clanners. Any attempt to justify this by declaring the Sentinels 'non-Clan' because you don't agree with their politics and tactics is tantamount to declaring that the Clans are dead and we may all just as well pack up and join the corporation, or emigrate, since it denies any viewpoint on the matter but your own.

Killing Sentinels will just drive Silverstone and his merry men into a more isolationist stance, denying the hope of negotiation and eventually making a Clan civil war inevitable, and the only winners there will be Omni-Tek when Omni-AF walk in an mop up after our most militarily powerful Clans have decimated each other.

On the other hand, I want the Sentinels out of Tir as bad as anyone. Their occupation could have been a good thing, when it first expelled the ICC and set up a working defence of the city again, but their hard line stance has destroyed Tir as a center of trade and industry. I would support any plan that removes these extremists and replaces them with a better alternative. I do not regard the ICC as a better choice however.

It's sad that some Neutrals have chosen to 'defend' themselves by creating a similar situation in Newland, and sadder that they chose the forces they did to accomplish it. I had little trust in ICC after their history, and I have no faith in Loren Warr's intention to leave Newland any time before she, and her backers, are ready.

((Post up to this point written just after Jypsie but transmission delayed))

The Knights would seem to be an excellent choice for guardians of Tir, they specialize in close-quarters fighting and so would be a better guard or police force than the Sentinels and their flamers, unless Lord Galahad has a secret agenda of his own of course.

[Dabblez]

Originally posted by Wolfen

The Knights would seem to be an excellent choice for guardians of Tir, they specialize in close-quarters fighting and so would be a better guard or police force than the Sentinels and their flamers, unless Lord Galahad has a secret agenda of his own of course.

The Knight of Sir Galahad?! Aren't the Knights that fringe group of loonies who like to dress up in costumes and keep some very strange critters in their castle? Is that really who you want in charge of you city's security? Well I guess all the pomp and pagentry draws in the tourists.

Savoy

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Savoy


The Knight of Sir Galahad?! Aren't the Knights that fringe group of loonies who like to dress up in costumes and keep some very strange critters in their castle? Is that really who you want in charge of you city's security? Well I guess all the pomp and pagentry draws in the tourists.

Savoy

The Knights, while they do have a very distinctive style of dress and combat, adhere to very high and very strict ethical standards. Recall that Lord Galahad was the sole member of the Council of Truth to walk out in protest as it became clear that the Council's employees, if not some of its members, were involved with and supporting the Dust Brigade.

[Dabblez]

Originally posted by Jynne
The Knights, while they do have a very distinctive style of dress and combat, adhere to very high and very strict ethical standards. Recall that Lord Galahad was the sole member of the Council of Truth to walk out in protest as it became clear that the Council's employees, if not some of its members, were involved with and supporting the Dust Brigade.

Well if fancy costumed nutcases with delusions of nobility is the best you got, I guess its the best you got.

Still, ever felt the urge to sneak into Camelot, go up to one of these lords or ladies and whisper "Psst... you great, great grandfather was a notum miner." then run?

Savoy