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Thread: The Nanomage People

  1. #81
    Originally posted by Tifanyx


    Think of it in 20th century terms. Did you ever here the phrase, "Computers are only as smart as the people who program them"? Granted, we are now in the year 29477, but I believe that that logic still applies. If computers were that much more intelligent, they would have taken over the world back then. But they didn't, because no matter how intelligent they are, they still lacked something. They are not self sufficient. Which means a human must intervene if something goes wrong.

    Its the same thing with present day nanomage. If we have "superior" intelligence, why after hundreds of years are we still bound to this planet? You'd think that by now some superiorly intelligent nanomage would figure out a way to get off this rock?!? But no, we are still here. Doomed to die, because less intelligent Solitus,Opifex, & Atrox don't believe in our struggle?? We cannot live without the intervention of notum within our system. Solitus, Opifex AND EVEN ATROX can. So who is more intelligent? I'm sorry, but I'd give up all this fake intelligence to be ALIVE when all the Notum is gone.
    Think of it this way:

    Nanomages are dependant on Notum.
    All humans are dependant on vitamins.

    Does that mean that all humans are not intelligent simply because their biology is dependant on a certain substance?

    Being dependant on notum is the same as being dependant on air, water, food or vitamins to live. Its part of who we are. Its an immutable fact that we cannt escape, no matter our intelligence.


    The comparison to 20th Century computers is just plain silly. We are enhanced humans, not machines. Would you say Atrox cannot be stronger than the solitus that created them? We have all been enhanbced in different ways. We are in fact more intelligent. We have been engineered to be more intelligent. If Solitus were infact as or more intelligent than us, they wouldnt have needed to create us.

  2. #82
    Originally posted by Akudama

    ((I'm almost positive I read about the breeds not being allowed to go off world somewhere, but I just cant find it again. I have posted this on other topics, and other posters have also said they have read this, so if anyone can fin it I'd appreciate it.))
    ((its in the time line
    "28973. The first Homo Nano is born in an Omni-Tek laboratory. The inclusion of trace notum into the DNA sequencing of Nano foetuses means that this breed is able to live only on Rubi-Ka".))
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  3. #83
    ((No not just the nanos, but all breeds. Atrox, Opifex and Nano, none can ever leave RK. Not due to notum dependency, but due to Restrictions on non-Solitus breeds intermingling and "dilutinbg the species". ))

  4. #84
    Originally posted by Akudama


    That just doesnt make any sense.

    Nanomages are not more intelligent because they have a dependency on notum?

    Binding Notum to DNA may be a simple process, but unbinding it may not be. We Solitus, Atrox and Opifex dont exist without notum because we are smart, its just the way we are. Intelligence doesnt factor into it at all.
    Who created you? Ah hah! See you were created just as Nanomages were. Except that you were created A LONG LONG LONG time ago. Its not "just the way we are". Your creator made you that way..

    What you stepped into was a conversation between a Nanomage Supremacist (Fakonamo) and a Nanomage who all breeds are of equal intelligence (myself). Alls I was trying to point out if we are so damn intelligent, how come we are still dependent on Notum??

  5. #85
    Originally posted by Fakonamo
    We are in fact more intelligent. We have been engineered to be more intelligent. If Solitus were infact as or more intelligent than us, they wouldnt have needed to create us.
    This discussion can go on forever, so I will end it.

    Yes. Nanomages are more ARTIFICIALLY intelligent then everyone else, because we were built that way..

    Oh no, I opened another can of worms.. Artificial vs. Real intelligence.. Let that debate commence..

  6. #86
    there is intelligence and wisdom


    Notum and nanomage dependence on it. We are dependent on notum, that is a fact. We can not leave Rubi-Ka either. As notum levels deplete which they surely will unless notum is infinite, but then you may as well argue David Marlin is orbiting Rubi-Ka in a space ship he has been travelling in for 15000 years.
    Now some have suggested that nanomage production should be halted when notum levels reach a certain level, this would seem to most to be a relativly sensible option. however, there is a group of nanomage who wish to see their race (or species as some would argue) continue. To do this at this time requires notum, lab space and genomes to be infused with notum. All of these are abundant on Rubi-Ka. I can clone myself and create a race of nanomage DrTiny's. Back to the matter at hand, stopping produciton of nanomage on Rubi-Ka (the only place we can survive remember) be it in Omni, clan or independent labs is akin to wiping out a race of peoples.
    Others have suggested, also quite rationally, that work should commence to create a race of nanomage no longer dependent on notum. nanomage made this way would not be nanomage. They would have evolved into something else, much like solitus have evolved from H.sapiens. This is not something i see a problem with, it is the natural way of things.
    However, to no longer have notum in their genomes nanomage would be solitus. I choose the right to live as a nanomage and for my future race of DrTiny's to be nanomage also. If there are members of the future Drtiny race who wish to be solitus then so be it, engineer their genomes to no longer contain notum ((i have no idea if this reverse engineering would be possible, going on my RL knowledge of genetics and biochemisty i suspect not, but who knows in 30000 years time)). To be nanomage you must have notum in your genome, that is how we are made, it is what defines us as a race. It may be possible to create a notum 'substitute' This would have far reaching consequences not just for nanomage, we would be a nanomage-like race (in the same way solitus are 'like' H.sapiens) and able to move off Rubi-Ka. but also for Rubi-Ka which would not be fought over by corporations and freedom fighters. Notum would no longer be the valuable stragtegic and economic resource that it currently is, the notum substitute would be.

    To summarise this rambling:-
    Stopping production/creation of nanomage is akin to wiping out a race of people as they are no longer deemed fit by society.

    Nanomage have the right to live as nanomage in today's and in future societies.

    Nanomage are dependent on notum, it is also their defining characteristic. It is what makes nanomage what they are.

    Nanomage have the skills and resources to continue their race for as long as there is notum.

    returning nanomage to their solitus 'roots' is not the way forward for the nanomage people.

    I would favour altering dependence on notum but not so nanomage become solitus again, this is wiping out the race. Notum levels will run out in the future, there is great debate as to when.

    My view, is the way forward to nanomage is create a notum substitue so they are still nanomage but notum is no longer a critical determinant of nanomage life.

    ((this is the result of 20mins of frantic typing before my boss comes back to his office ))
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  7. #87
    So, DrTiny has decided to remain dependant on the Notum in the atmosphere. That's cool for him.

    He also agrees that his children have the right to decide not to be chained down to the Notum.

    What he doesn't realize is that he's not providing a choice for his children. He is bearing children into slavery. I'm not passing judgement here, just stating fact.

    DrTiny apparently has the ability to exercise self-restraint and not procreate additional people who are hog-tied by their chemical dependancies. He also has the ability if he chooses to procreate to create children who will be free to travel the galaxy.

    In any slave civilization, those who are faced with the ability to freely choose whether to bear children who will be bound to that same slave civilization must make a dire moral decision.

    How many ethnic slaves have wished dearly to bear children that looked, and felt, and smelled like those who were free men? You have to weigh the quality of life of your progeny versus culture. And what is culture. If I am a green man who is a slave to the blue man and I through some manipulation give birth to a blue child, what are the implications? Will my blue child be accepted as a free man? Is his green culture void and valueless?

    I see many nanomages who insist on maintaining their dependence on the notum in the atmosphere of Rubi'Ka. I have YET to see one of these geniuses start a think tank to explore options. When I go out in the sun, I put on Sunglasses. I don't sit in the house all day. I don't call for society to attempt to extinguish the sun. You have a dependancy on a chemical. Why is that? What are the effects of lack of contact with the chemical? Can you counter-act these effects? Is there a substitute?

    I think that any Opifex or Atrox who has escaped Rubi'Ka in defiance of the ICC's ban on non-Solitus migration will tell you that to be caged like lab animals is something that one should be working against. Not something to be fighting and killing in support of.

  8. #88
    did you read what i wrote?
    Omni-Pol intelligence report for Peregrinus Praecautus
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  9. #89
    I would favour altering dependence on notum but not so nanomage become solitus again, this is wiping out the race. Notum levels will run out in the future, there is great debate as to when.
    My apologies. I've seen so many Nanomages basically define themselves by their dependance on the Notum in the air. I see you can see that a Nanomage that isn't dependant on the chemical would be ideal.

    There's a problem, however. It's been stated that you have Notum in your DNA or blood or whatever. That's what it takes to make new little Nanomages. How do you do that without Notum?

    Hang on, we're almost wrapping around to the initial quote ...

    So, you agree that removing the dependance on Notum is the best way to go.

    But, you can't have a Nanomage without Notum.

    So .... there's no more Nanomage's as they currently exist.

    You might not end up with a Solitus. But, you surely won't have a Nanomage. Why is that so bad? That's my question. Why are you trying to cling to something that is inherently flawed?

    --------------

    I am a member of species that breathes amonia. There is only one planet in the universe with an amonia atmosphere. There are 287 million planets with an Oxygen atmosphere. I mutate my species to the point where it can no longer breath amonia, but however thrives in Oxygen.

    Why is this a bad thing? Or is the amonia-breather somehow superior? Is that what we're getting at? That the Nanomage must be allowed to continue in it's present configuration because it is inherently more valuable than any other genetic configuration?

    Is it nostalgia? Humans like to keep endangered species around in zoos for some reason. Animals that can't adapt to changing environs or fiercer competition for resources are often placed on display for children to point at. The creatures that adapt such as the venerable cockroach are often derided for their incredible ability to adapt and seemingly endless tenacity towards survival.

    Will the nanomage end up being a dodo bird who ends up fighting and kicking while his island is mowed down and planted with crops or will he be a cockroach and outlast us all through the sheer force of will?

    To the point at hand again. When our Nanomage friends find a substitute that allows them to live 'sans-Notum' and such process leaves them with furry arms and pink faces, are they still Nanomage? And does this really matter? Will it matter in 10,000 years. Should they fight against the development of such a substitute? Is this switching one chemical dependancy for another? Is chemical dependancy what truly defines the Nanomage? I would hope not.

  10. #90
    Originally posted by Vashtiklorna


    Greater ancient peoples espoused love. Love one another.

    And its direct application here is don't export harm, and don't harm in the process of export. ((You're lives will go on very well if we can all give you PNH. ))
    Hmmm .... and here we have another flawed argument. PNH (if I'm correct in assuming this is Personal Notum Harvester) is a NanoTechnician nanoformula. What does this have to do with anything? An Opifex, a Solitus, an Atrox, whoever can offer to execute PNH in my Nano Containment Unit.

    Somehow profession snuck into a discussion on biology.

    I can see myself walking up to a swarthy Nanomage Enforcer and asking him for PNH. Probably smack me upside the head.

  11. #91
    Originally posted by Tifanyx


    Who created you? Ah hah! See you were created just as Nanomages were. Except that you were created A LONG LONG LONG time ago. Its not "just the way we are". Your creator made you that way..

    What you stepped into was a conversation between a Nanomage Supremacist (Fakonamo) and a Nanomage who all breeds are of equal intelligence (myself). Alls I was trying to point out if we are so damn intelligent, how come we are still dependent on Notum??
    First, no one created me, I was born. I have no creator except the natural processes of life. No thinking being designed me. I dont want to get into a discussion about religous creationism (ok I do, but not here) but lets just say, I dont believe it and nothing will convince me otherwise. (just as faith prevents the faithful from being convinved of the lack of a creator, my faith that it doesnt exist prevents me from being convinced of its existance)

    Secondly, being dependant on notum is not a choice, not something you can choose to do without. It has nothing to do with intelligence or lack thereof.

    I consider the human race to be quite intelligent as a whole, so how come we still need to eat? If we are so smart and can build spaceships how come we are dependant on food?

    /sarcasm on
    We must really not be smart as the only mark of a truely smart breed seems to be being able to liberate ones self from an inherant dependancy!!!
    /sacrasm off

    Its a silly argument to make.
    Last edited by Fakonamo; Apr 1st, 2003 at 21:44:55.

  12. #92
    Originally posted by Akudama



    I consider the human race to be quite intelligent as a whole, so how come we still need to eat? If we are so smart and can build spaceships how come we are dependant on food?

    /sarcasm on
    We must really not be smart as the only mark of a truely smart breed seems to be being able to liberate ones self from an inherant dependancy!!!
    /sacrasm off

    Its a silly argument to make.
    /agree totally. If we devised a breed of human that needed to eat human hair to survive, why should we care if the shaggy look comes back in style and these people are starving? Given certain arguments, we'd have these 'hair eaters' out protesting for a return to the 'bald is beautiful' era rather than trying to come up with a 'cure' to their dependancy. They don't accomplish anything except prolonging the duration before true action is necessary.

    I use such an analogy because we are talking about a resource. Obviously there's nobody starving in today's society. Food is abundant to the point it's sort of disgusting. 'Bronto, bronto, bronto ... we want you.'

    However, assuming that 'Food' as an abstract element in an equation:

    Code:
    Me + Food*Quality(Food) = Survival - Dependance(Food)*/Food
    were to be diminished, then we have to look at the options as the value of 'Food' approaches zero.

    With unlimited Food, you've basically got 'Me=Survival' (and a truckload of leftover Food to line yer innards with).

    As the amount of the Food resource is depleted the little part after 'Me +' tends towards zero and the little part after '= Survival' starts to become a very big number. With zero food, you got Survival minus Infinity. That's not good odds of living.

    I'm sure some can see other ways to stem disaster. Increase the quality of the food or efficiency of its impact. Half a hot dog doing the work of two. Yay, the world only needs 25% of what it used to.

    Still doesn't solve the problem as Food approaches zero. Yer gonna die.

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there are only two ways out. First, make sure Food never actually reaches zero. That's a scary thought. ((Yup, earth will never run out of oil. uhuh))

    .... or secondly. Reduce Dependance(Food) to zero. You have guaranteed Survival.

    Feel free to substitute Notum where appropriate. I think the illustration is clear.
    Last edited by Bionitrous; Apr 1st, 2003 at 22:12:20.

  13. #93
    Originally posted by Akudama
    First, no one created me, I was born. I have no creator except the natural processes of life.
    Natural process of life? THAT IS CREATION!!!! Being BORN is being CREATED! How the heck do you think any of us got here? It all STARTED somewhere! Do you think you just appeared from dust or something?

    You were lucky enough to have been born. I on the other hand was created in a Lab!

  14. #94
    Originally posted by Tifanyx


    Natural process of life? THAT IS CREATION!!!! Being BORN is being CREATED! How the heck do you think any of us got here? It all STARTED somewhere! Do you think you just appeared from dust or something?

    You were lucky enough to have been born. I on the other hand was created in a Lab!

    well,

    Your creator made you that way
    implies an actual creator, a being that does the creating, which I dont believe in. Actually I do believe we just appeared from dust or something. Chemical processes resulted organic compound ans amino acids which in turn resulted in life, life evolved into humans, I was born, no divine hand involved, no creator.

  15. #95
    Originally posted by Akudama

    implies an actual creator, a being that does the creating, which I dont believe in. Actually I do believe we just appeared from dust or something. Chemical processes resulted organic compound ans amino acids which in turn resulted in life, life evolved into humans, I was born, no divine hand involved, no creator.
    A respectable point of view. I mean, the amino acids bit, but you still were created from something. Instead of someone, a bunch of amino acids got together and *POOF* out comes Akuna Matada, er Akudama or whatever.

    So we stand at yet another impasse.. Thats two in one thread. Its gotta be a record.

    -Tifanyx

  16. #96
    Originally posted by Bionitrous


    My apologies. I've seen so many Nanomages basically define themselves by their dependance on the Notum in the air. I see you can see that a Nanomage that isn't dependant on the chemical would be ideal.

    There's a problem, however. It's been stated that you have Notum in your DNA or blood or whatever. That's what it takes to make new little Nanomages. How do you do that without Notum?

    Hang on, we're almost wrapping around to the initial quote ...

    So, you agree that removing the dependance on Notum is the best way to go.

    But, you can't have a Nanomage without Notum.

    So .... there's no more Nanomage's as they currently exist.

    You might not end up with a Solitus. But, you surely won't have a Nanomage. Why is that so bad? That's my question. Why are you trying to cling to something that is inherently flawed?

    --------------

    I am a member of species that breathes amonia. There is only one planet in the universe with an amonia atmosphere. There are 287 million planets with an Oxygen atmosphere. I mutate my species to the point where it can no longer breath amonia, but however thrives in Oxygen.

    Why is this a bad thing? Or is the amonia-breather somehow superior? Is that what we're getting at? That the Nanomage must be allowed to continue in it's present configuration because it is inherently more valuable than any other genetic configuration?

    Is it nostalgia? Humans like to keep endangered species around in zoos for some reason. Animals that can't adapt to changing environs or fiercer competition for resources are often placed on display for children to point at. The creatures that adapt such as the venerable cockroach are often derided for their incredible ability to adapt and seemingly endless tenacity towards survival.

    Will the nanomage end up being a dodo bird who ends up fighting and kicking while his island is mowed down and planted with crops or will he be a cockroach and outlast us all through the sheer force of will?

    To the point at hand again. When our Nanomage friends find a substitute that allows them to live 'sans-Notum' and such process leaves them with furry arms and pink faces, are they still Nanomage? And does this really matter? Will it matter in 10,000 years. Should they fight against the development of such a substitute? Is this switching one chemical dependancy for another? Is chemical dependancy what truly defines the Nanomage? I would hope not.
    It has been stated elsewhere to, somehow, reverse engineer nanomage back to solitus. Why do I not agree with this? it is hard to give quantitivive data on so qualitative a subject, I am what I am. I do not wish to be returned to solitus stock nor do i wish to see nanomage 'production' halted as such a move is, in my view, tantamount to extermination of the nanomage as they are no longed deemed fit by society. There are nanomage today who here and now want to remain as nanomage and they want to see nanomage exist into the future.

    As to what the race could evolve into if notum dependency was (IC and OOC : assuming it can be) removed is a tough question to answer. Would they be nanomage, would they be solitus, would they be something else?. However, the nanomage race has been allowed to continue and carry on their evolution just as the majority of other species are. I am in favour of trying to secure a future where nanomage can move onto their next phase of evolution.

    As it stands now, nanomage require notum. There is no substitute and evolution is a slow mistress. Each tonne of notum blasted off planet reduces the lifespan of nanomage. This may not matter if the notum supply is measured in billions of years, very few species have remained 'as is' after billions of years evolution. But if the supply is much more limited then the nanomage have a severe problem. And one that needs solving as soon as possible. Militant groups, which I support, are advocating the use of force to ensure the current survival of the nanomage people. We have had to go down this unfortunate route to gain attention to our plight ((plus blowing things up is fun for the whole family )). If this course ensures the survival of our species then i consider it a necessary evil.

    Few people on Rubi-Ka listen to reason nowadays :/
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  17. #97
    Originally posted by Tifanyx


    A respectable point of view. I mean, the amino acids bit, but you still were created from something. Instead of someone, a bunch of amino acids got together and *POOF* out comes Akuna Matada, er Akudama or whatever.
    You gonna start mocking names now that your arguments fall flat? Its best you just show some class for once, stop spouting off ridiculous moot arguments and back out now.

    Your a nanomange, use some of that superior intelligence to come up with an effective way to prove a point without resorting to childish tactics. Hell, I dont agree with Fako, but atleast his arguments are more rational and pertinent to the discussion that the drivel you're spouting out.

    We are ot at an impasse, simply because nothing you have said makes any sense, although you are proving the point that not all nanomages are intelligent.

  18. #98
    Akudama, perhaps no one created you, but someone did indeed create the nanomages. They don't have to wonder who their creator is. It was no supernatural being. It was a solitus in a lab.

    ((And yes, while they may not be "allowed" to leave the planet, there are many who find ways to "sneak off", whether its bribing a captain, smuggling themselves, or just leaving in a private ship, they can get off planet.))
    Bliqz: "anything Uwen says is a vicious and ugly lie"

  19. #99
    Akudama, you are right, ICC regulations prevent ANY non solitus breed of human travelling from its planet of origin, to prevent contamination of genetic lines I believe. However I think exceptions can be made for individuals (There is a homo-nano working on Omni-Prime for example).

    Ok, secondly as far as I can remember i dont remember seeing ANYWHERE that Homo-Nano is any more intelligent than homo-solitus. They have been modified to allow them to communicate with nanobots directly, and their extra neural pathways are used for this purpose as far as I know ((OOC this is why they have better INT ingame, not because they are more intelligent, but because they have greater control of nano, which INT effects)).

    If I am wrong about that, please point me to the evidence.

    Hugs

    lilnymph
    Lilnymph - Clan Fixer - RK1
    lilnymph wrote on November 21st, 2003 08:01:01:
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  20. #100
    Originally posted by lilnymph
    ((OOC this is why they have better INT ingame, not because they are more intelligent, but because they have greater control of nano, which INT effects)).
    (( Sorry, but that makes no sense. INT is in fact Intelligence (as an ability that is its title). So saying better Intelligence (INT as you call it) doesnt mean more Intelligence makes no sense.

    Yes, intelligence effect how well a character controls nanobots, for that reason increased intelligence was needed for increased control.

    If Intelligence is purely nano control and not instead actually intelligence, why does it play such a large role in Chemistry, Psycology and other non nano related skills.

    If the ability wasnt a measure of intelligence it wouldnt be called intelligence (maybe wisdom, nanobot control, mental aptitude or something else). ))
    Last edited by Fakonamo; Apr 2nd, 2003 at 15:10:30.

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