PVP damage caps

[______________gibeon]

and feel that the half damage is working, making for longer fights with a little more strategy. now maybe debuffs and dots and roots have more play into it, vs whomever could hit with their three specials first.

Crits make pk tough... but I dont think getting rid of low light scopes or crit buffs is the answer.

crits should help everyone out the same, right? how does a crit buff unbalance the game one way or another?

you have two opponents, both with the same level. ones a doc, ones an enforcer. each is twinked. the enf will have more armor, life, higher evades, and a higher ql weapon. say hes using a beam or hammer. the doc a vektor.

the doc has a crit buff on him, so does the enf. the edge would be to the enforcer because he will get crit less (higher evades), has more health, can mongo and heal, and hits harder and faster. the healing will allow the doc to be competitive, but the end of the match should be the enf.

why does anything in the system need to be changed?

[__________NicholaSix]

Well there are some major imballances in who can crit for what at what level. A doc enforcer example is fair, but consider say a level 75 trader who has put on a shogun with 125+ sg implants for around 135 + a 132 wrangle from a friend while personally divesting +88 and ransacking +79 a gray mob at the same time for another total of 167 + 20 more for the gen buff

135
132
88
79
20
--------
+454

A ql180 ND dragon requires a shotgun skill of 834 so if a level 75 trader has raised his base shotgun skill to 380 that's his gun.

The crit on that gun is 812. With LMA or UVC and a scope the chance of surviving 5 shots isn't too good no matter what class you are if you are in that level range. I'm not saying traders shouldn't be the end all be all PVP class, but crits are just too important to pvp and they discount all other skills too much. Metas, NTs can't crit with their NFs. MAs and Advs crits aren't signifigant, Crats, Docs, and soldiers can all over-equip the same shotgun, not by as much but still quite a bit, but anyway, as it is now it's very imballanced towards high crit capable healing classes.

50% damage puts far too much reliance on crits. If damage stays 50% then remove crits from PVP and PVP is fine.

The only other major PVP imbalance issue is damage casting classes. Give them half cast costs in PVP since their cost basis for damage is 2x of healing, and things are fair.

Of course then we would have 3 combat systems, one for PVM one for PVP and a special sub-set of rules for NTs and Metas. To me 100% damage with a reduction in crits just makes more sense, esp if combined with a boost in HP and some further hinderance in PVP for classes with specials that can be chained together, even just a delay between them.

[______________gibeon]

going on your example...

if damage was at 100%... as it was, what on earth could stop a level 74 trader with a ql 180 gun (and I didnt think that ransack, deprive, and wrangler all stacked... actually, I still dont). but regaurdless, that trader would be able to beat anyone. He can deprive, ransack, root and heal. has the best possible weapon ql for his level (the ransack/deprive will always give him more then a wrangle).

In 50%, 40%, or 100% ... that trader would own.

The only thing that might come close is an enforcer at 74 too, using a ql 200 beam with more armor and life... and hope that he has the same crit buff on. maybe with his brawls, he could outdamage the trader... i dont know. his nanos would be limited (maybe he cant rage to break the roots)

Again, dont know.

I dont think crits are the problem. I think over equip'ing is in this example. And thats the last thing funcom is working on from what I have heard...

I dont think pvp needs to change.

[_______________Garzu]

Heals is the most unbalancing thing in PvP atm, we need same rules for dmg as for heals, if this means 100% dmg or 50% heals, same for me. In my opinion heals causes alot more unbalance than crits, but of course, crits is too powerful too.

[______________gibeon]

Just about everyone can heal... in some capacity...

mas, adv, docs, treaders get direct heals... enforcer mongos, fixer hots, metas have a pet... crats and engies can heal their bots... even soldiers can heal (tho not very well

heh, who does that leave? NTs.... they are the only ones that cant heal except for heal kits, but then they are most likely using nano kits.

so its NT that "feel" this more then any other class...

garzu... arent you an NT? :P

but they have null sphere, roots, stuns, humid extractors, enframs, the layered spell... and good consistant damage.

dont know .. but are NTs that outclassed in pvp now because of healing?

[PezPower]

NT's ARE massively affected in PvP heals. So are fixers, crats,engineers and soldiers who also have no healing capability.

Let me elaborate. just from the NT side as it's the one I'm most familiar with.

Best NT nano to use between levels 90-110 for highest average damage is burning quartet with a damage range of 723-812 with a recharge of 3.1 sec. It _always_ hits min damage meaning it's doing 362 per ~3sec in PvP.

I commonly see doc's using a little nano from lvl75 called cellular rebuild. Heals 389-650 with a 3.45 recharge. Normally heals for median amounts (~450-550).

Let's throw in a similar level HoT, Exaggerated Health: 41-68 every 30 seconds.

Assuming minimums on both heals, attacks and HoT's:
Minimum(avereage honestly) damage in 30 sec = 3503
Max damage = 3929
Minimum Heal in 30 secs = 3450
Max Heal = 5652

Total damage to doc (all min) dealt = 53
Total (damage max-heal min) = 479
Total (damage max-heal max) = -1723
Total (damage min-heal max) = -2149

Admittedly, this is assuming both people have fast enough nanoinit to instacast, but it is also assuming no init debuff(riiight) on the NT.

Oh yeah, and NT's can't heal at all, first aid kits notwithstanding as everyone can use those. Of course the doc won't just be healing. Looking at those numbers they have absolutely no need to, they'll be happily blasting said NT.

And you don't see a problem where?

PS: Nullity sphere might help a little, but 99% of us can't even find the damn thing.

[______________gibeon]

fixers have HoTs (at that level, could be casting detailed medical claim... 43 to 92 On Target, DoT 40 times (5.00 s apart)

and soldiers get at that level 1 more hit healing. 200-300 life...

ok, so those arent super powerful... but they are helpful. (not sure about the soldier).

crats and engies are out of luck unless a person decides to tank their bot/pet... dont know who would do that.

your comparrison made it out to be in favor of the doc. agreed.
dont nts have stuns, the sphere, dots?


but ok... heal for damage, its really close. do most nts run with a weapon? do they use a shotgun?

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by gibeon
dont know .. but are NTs that outclassed in pvp now because of healing?

YES!

And healing pets in PvP... who in their right mind would do that? LOL, or who would attack a pet in stead of its owner? To heal a pet is not a problem at all, its the heals that heals the players that is the problem... fixers HoT is not a problem at all, to little healing to make a problem...

In my world its only doc/traders/MAs/advs/MP healing that causes trouble, specially docs/traders/MPs, because they got some insanely good debuffs at the same time...

[______________gibeon]

maybe the answer is that NTs will be less successful against docs and traders. so if your an NT, shy away from that doc thats 30 levels higher then you

just nuke the meta heal pet while rooting the meta attack pet right?

I think an enforcer or ma (equally twinked) could beat a doc.

but as an NT, you should be able to beat MAs now that roots will stick? the enforcer might be a little tougher, but you could prolly beat him too.

as my doc, I fear tha beam wielding enforcer as twinked as me... and the ma if I cant crit him with my shotgun (he should have duck maxed i would hope) and he gets BwT on me, while criting me on a brawl, i think I can lose that battle too.

can i beat an agent? yup. an nt? yup.

i think its one of those things you just learn to cope with.

[__________NicholaSix]

hehe gibeon, have you ever seen Dr Zand in action? He's gone now, but that guy was a 1 man slaughter house. Granted he was built 100% for PVP, and very well built, but it takes 4 or 5 150+ poeple to drop him (those are people in his level ranage) and a lot of times he'd just kill them all.

He was good before the patch too, and had his novice before the damage caps.

Anyway, I too think damage and healing needs to be on the same scale and I'd like crits looked at. I understand they are bugged in their current state and are supposed to be less frequent. I think that's a good idea if you put healing on the same scale as damage to lower total damage output and prolong battles.

[________________Lona]

I dont know why people are talking about Nullity in PvP, its sucks. Only thing it does is saving your ass 14 seconds before you are on your way to the reclaim station.

If you see a NT put up Nullity you have 6 seconds(recharge time) to cast a DoT, root or a nerf and move away a little bit and wait 8 sec.

Nullity are like a root, you cant move or sit down etc, its good when you are running out of health and have a Doc who can heal you.

[______________gibeon]

no... the closest I ever came to witnessing a high level doc was my duel with jacksr in mmd... he was lucky I was rez'ing because I was this close (makes a hand motion showing his fingers very close) to beating him. I shrugged off his 190 point dot and 400 point hits like it was nothing...

he wouldnt rechallenge me because he knew how close it was ...

bunjiro, level 80 ma, bane of Jacksr


heh :P

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by gibeon
maybe the answer is that NTs will be less successful against docs and traders. so if your an NT, shy away from that doc thats 30 levels higher then you

just nuke the meta heal pet while rooting the meta attack pet right?

I think an enforcer or ma (equally twinked) could beat a doc.

but as an NT, you should be able to beat MAs now that roots will stick? the enforcer might be a little tougher, but you could prolly beat him too.

as my doc, I fear tha beam wielding enforcer as twinked as me... and the ma if I cant crit him with my shotgun (he should have duck maxed i would hope) and he gets BwT on me, while criting me on a brawl, i think I can lose that battle too.

can i beat an agent? yup. an nt? yup.

i think its one of those things you just learn to cope with.

LOL, you obviously got no clue at all... "shy away from docs 30 lvls higher than you" ? I have to shy away from docs 30 lvl below me... I cant nuke faster than a lvl 116 doc can heal... just go ask Omniangel... I am 167 with the best nukes.

I want same rules for healing as for dmg, 100% for both would be best, dmg got nerfed to 50% in PvP, that was a quick fix, and thank god, FC is looking into it now

I would love to see you fight Jacksr if you are a lvl 80 MA.... I cant beat him, maybe 1 in a 1000..

[______________gibeon]

that was the funny part...

jacksr so crushed me.... I gave some semblance of a fight, hit him for 25, 40, 25, 87....

while by now I had taken over 1500 ....




sorry garzu that its tough for you now as an NT vs docs.

[__________NicholaSix]

It's tough for everyone against docs traders and metas, not just NTs =]

[Kinkstaah]

Crit buffs need to be unarmed only

And they do. Now. They are fair on most classes yes (besides casters) but make the MK shield for soldiers WAAAAAAAAY too uber.

"Hey look I can do massive damage but not be hurt!"

And they removed NT stuns for that.

All classes are supposed to have their Nemesis.
****it, just make ALL BUFFS self only.

[_______________Archu]

A while ago I would have said 50% damage, 50% healing but I can't quite agree anymore now that I've been doing some pvp with my MP.

Depends on your breed actually but my nanomage has so low hp that most of my opponents deal the full 40% of max hp in every special , MA attack, crit or nano prog. Now if my heal pet only healed 50% I would lose every battle because I would be dead before I have the time to cast a single nuke.

I see this as a problem to NTs too. They can root melee profs or cast nullify sphere wich is extremely rare so they can't exel against ranged weapons very well.

[Coldshade]

Originally posted by ULTRA1

There really needs to be some unity in combat systems. I would gladly sugggest some possiable soldier nurfs ... lengthening the already long recharge time of full-auto... Or just remove Full-auto from the game on top of adding a recharge time between specials. I think all those things are reasonable changes.

[/B]

Dear god! The poor soldier has already been beaten with nerfs enough. I refuse to play a soldier because they are completely crippled IMO (and the opinion of several of my very competent friends who have played a soldier) until level 100 or so, at which point there one decent skill (MK shield) becomes a viable option. Now, granted there are exceptions to every rule (alpha strikes with multiple weaps comes to mind), but the average soldier is merely capable at PvP, not dominant, and I would say below average at PvM. And again, I am talking about the average soldier, not the one that has a sugar char to toss money and equipment at him. So please, put the nerf stick down and back away slowly lol

[__________NicholaSix]

hehe ya, my highest character is a soldier. Actually removing FA would be a little over the top but to be honest most soldiers don't even use weapons with FA anymore because they all take too long to reload or have very small clips and weapon swaping is so slow and buggy no one does it, also you can't during the mk recharge.

To be honest removing fa would be more of a nurf to high level docs, metas and NTs who frequently equip ql200 flashpoints since they can discharge the specials during casting. This is prolly a bug, but it can be done, the damage is done as soon as you hit the special button but the special message appears after the casting is finished. Talk about alpha strike, high level NT/Meta nuke or doc dot combined with fling/burst/FA. It's very effective =]

If there was 100% damage having a gap between specials wouldn't be a PVM nurf and not really a big soldier nurf either. Most higher level soldiers use gammas these days anyway because of broken crits, though nova's are frequently used. The only FA alpha strike soldiers I see these days are lower level ones, 25-75.

As far as PVP goes, taking a delay between specials would be better to me than getting nurfed damage and un-nurfed heals.

God what if the NBA was like AO's PVP? Would players like Jordan be forced to wear lead weights on their ankles and smear axle grease on their hands because they had a natural advantage over other players? Hehe, just a thought. Would be funny to see one team forced to wear weights and grease because they were favored in stats, so as to make it an even game, and of course centers would have to wear much heavier weights than guards because they score too much. LOL, I think I'll write a letter to the NBA!

[________________Sent]

Originally posted by ULTRA1

God what if the NBA was like AO's PVP? Would players like Jordan be forced to wear lead weights on their ankles and smear axle grease on their hands because they had a natural advantage over other players? Hehe, just a thought. Would be funny to see one team forced to wear weights and grease because they were favored in stats, so as to make it an even game, and of course centers would have to wear much heavier weights than guards because they score too much. LOL, I think I'll write a letter to the NBA!

You do that, ask them how popular the NBA would be if the first team on the court always won the games that lasted 1 second.