PVP damage caps

[__________Mindswayer]

Originally posted by ULTRA1
Well there are some major imballances in who can crit for what at what level. A doc enforcer example is fair, but consider say a level 75 trader who has put on a shogun with 125+ sg implants for around 135 + a 132 wrangle from a friend while personally divesting +88 and ransacking +79 a gray mob at the same time for another total of 167 + 20 more for the gen buff

135
132
88
79
20
--------
+454

A ql180 ND dragon requires a shotgun skill of 834 so if a level 75 trader has raised his base shotgun skill to 380 that's his gun.

The crit on that gun is 812. With LMA or UVC and a scope the chance of surviving 5 shots isn't too good no matter what class you are if you are in that level range. I'm not saying traders shouldn't be the end all be all PVP class, but crits are just too important to pvp and they discount all other skills too much. Metas, NTs can't crit with their NFs. MAs and Advs crits aren't signifigant, Crats, Docs, and soldiers can all over-equip the same shotgun, not by as much but still quite a bit, but anyway, as it is now it's very imballanced towards high crit capable healing classes.

50% damage puts far too much reliance on crits. If damage stays 50% then remove crits from PVP and PVP is fine.

The only other major PVP imbalance issue is damage casting classes. Give them half cast costs in PVP since their cost basis for damage is 2x of healing, and things are fair.

Of course then we would have 3 combat systems, one for PVM one for PVP and a special sub-set of rules for NTs and Metas. To me 100% damage with a reduction in crits just makes more sense, esp if combined with a boost in HP and some further hinderance in PVP for classes with specials that can be chained together, even just a delay between them.

And why exactly do you throw in the crat in there when saying "they" can all overequip the same shotgun? Shotgun is deep blue to the crat just as it is to NT and Meta. There is no reason why a crat can use a shotgun and an NT or Meta could not. NT's could moore easily use a shotgun since they have more spare IP than a crat.

[______________Takuan]

Garzu is way to powerfull in PVP, I think Dr.Sent would agree with me that the real problem is that we need to nerf Garzu and everything will be fine.

j/k

The things to powerfull in PVP

Roots
Shields
Crit buffs

No other healing class is a problem for high level NT's accept Doc's and Traders. So nerfing healing just makes the rest of us suck worse. I'm not sure where it's written that NT's are supposed to dominate high level PVP but that's what it sounds like is being requested in these posts.

100% Damage was a problem we were all there and saw it. No one liked insta-kills. Although my own class, MA's, were alot stronger during 100% (every 30 min), brining that back will just drive even more people away from PVP.

Instead of worrying about bring back this, nerf that why is no one worried about just a rebalancing of pvp in general? PVP is all messed up across the board. Some classes are strong in the early levels then die out, others are weak early on then insanely powerfull later on. With all these posts all we are doing is starting small fires and FC may or may not be trying to put them out with nerfs and boosts that are way off the scale of balance.

Just something to think about.

[_____________Trigger]

I must say that I am quite shocked and at the same time very pleased at the constructivness of this thred. Ususall things of this nature are flame fests and completly unproductive, not the case here in my opinion.

With that said on with my observation. I have an eng and a trader and a fixer. I have pvp'd with then all at one time or another. My eng does not have a shotgun, he uses pistols as he was intended too. My main concern with this thred is the crit discussion. My trader has a shotgun like every other trader out there. The problem I see is that the trader and his shotgun have to crit to be competative in pvp. Lets take a quick example of a situation which could transpire if say a crit was unavailible in pvp.

I have a 180 vektor equipped. I can hit for say around 350 average without counting crits. This is a very fair number considering the AC of most PVP'ers is extreme. I might hit you for 500-600 in one shot but the next one could be 63. I say 350 as damage over a period of time. Well with that considered, just about every class would seriously outdamage me. Casters have good damage that AC does not affect, ive been nuked plenty of times for 900+. Anyone that has a special attack has me cooked, Aimed shot, full auto, burst, brawl you get the point, smack me with a couple of good specials and I am toast.

I have repetedly asked for detailed combat information from FC in order to determine what affects crits and how damage is calculated only to be ignored. I think if we actually understood the mechanics behind combat we could help with a soulition. As it is now we are all guessing. I can tell you right now without a doubt that the crit buff is not the only factor in calculating if a crit hits.

Please do not take what I have written out of context. I am not saying that there is not a problem with crit buff, I am saying that we should look at it very carefully before asking FC to pull the nerf trigger. Shotgun users are not the only class that benifits from the crit buff and it is almost a neccessaty for a trader in solo pvm to crit. This post is a request for information to help with a solution. We guess and try to reason what the factors are, but until we know we cant be sure and therefore can help only marginally to a soulution for everyone. GIVE US THE INFO SO WE CAN HELP YOU BALENCE THIS GAME! I can tell you right know there is enough wisdom about the game in this forum alone to fix the hole thing if we knew exacty how it worked.

On another note I have a question about the concernes of the NT's posting here and there ineffectiveness in PVP. Were the nukes ranges caped at 40m? The other day I stepped into a pvp zone only to be nuked serveral times from someone that was not only out of the range of my +15m over capped shotgun, but far enough out that my 250+ perception could not even aquire a target. I know that my nano's can cast a little further than my gun has range (and thats with a pretty crappy range increaser hate to think what a good one could do), but as a trader I don't have any direct damage nano's so I am unclear as to weather the range is capped or not. If there is not a range cap on your nukes that is a serious advantage. I cannot attack what I cannot see, let alone if you can root me. Just curious plese set me straight on this one.

My 2 cents

[______________Takuan]

Crit buffs are destabalizing for this reason.

All the players in this game have made weapon decisions based on their ability to get crit buffs. That means that 500 weapons could exist in this game and people have narrowed the used weapons down to between 6-10 based on crit damage VS damage over time. We never would have needed Nerfed damage in PVP if Crit buffs were MA only.

Crits in and of them selves aren't the problem, the frequency of crits is the problem. You figure UVC + LLTS = 40% chance to crit (guessing) plus what ever bugs exist. So even if damage is at 40% this gives players with large critting weapons a 40% chance to do 40% damage to their opponent.

The Irony

MA's cast crit buffs that everyone uses in PVP/PVM and currently get the least "bang for the buck" out of their own buff. MA's are Damage over Time characters and so although we crit we never crit for 10K in PVM like agents do occasionally etc... Maybe 13.8 will change that it remains to be seen.

[assassimon]

I think it's really strange that NTs can't kill Docs when I can do it with a shogun only.

A doc can't kill anything with only dot and nuke, they have to use a shotgun, so why shouldn't it be same for NTs?

I don't mean that I kill docs easy but that mostly is becuase they kill me faster, and that have nothing to do with them healing, that have to do with them doing good damage with shotgun, just like NTs, MPs and every other prof that usually use a shotgun.


I want to keep damage at 50%, heals at 100%, atleast keep heals until they change/fix debuffs, insane high crit % and roots.

I don't think that any prof should be able to debuff nanoskills more than the best prof can buff them. That way there would be a possiblity to counter the debuff, right now you can only wait.
If a NT get a mochams they can keep their skill high and not get rendered useless when they get debuffed, debuffs are way to powerful against some profs.

Doc's init debuffs are exactly the same, they are also extremly powerful against SAME profs....

[meriweather]

Also the current implementation is flawed. A player can still get killed in three hits for an alpha strike which is bull****. The damage cap needs to be re-adjusted AFTER the initial hit from the first of the three specials. Example:

"All specials are now capped @ 40% of the opponents health"

My interpretation of this:

Player A - Atrox Soldier wielding a Flashpoint.
Player B - Nanomage NT gimp with 2200 hp.

Player A opens with burst, hits for 880 damage. Hits flingshot key and hits for 528 (adjusted health 1320 (2200-880)/40%), full auto for 319 (adjusted health 792(2200-1408(880+528)/40%). NT is now standing at 473 hp but at least he ain't dead (yet)

Damage is then capped @ 50% of total weapon damage output now that specials are gone. Yeah the NT gimp would still probably drop on the 4th hit but FC said they introduced the damage cap on specials to stop instakills. This is crap because under current implementation no adjustments are made after an inital special attack so 3 hit kills are still possible, easily.

[assassimon]

Originally posted by Kopo
Also the current implementation is flawed. A player can still get killed in three hits for an alpha strike which is bull****. The damage cap needs to be re-adjusted AFTER the initial hit from the first of the three specials. Example:

"All specials are now capped @ 40% of the opponents health"

My interpretation of this:

Player A - Atrox Soldier wielding a Flashpoint.
Player B - Nanomage NT gimp with 2200 hp.

Player A opens with burst, hits for 880 damage. Hits flingshot key and hits for 528 (adjusted health 1320 (2200-880)/40%), full auto for 319 (adjusted health 792(2200-1408(880+528)/40%). NT is now standing at 473 hp but at least he ain't dead (yet)

Damage is then capped @ 50% of total weapon damage output now that specials are gone. Yeah the NT gimp would still probably drop on the 4th hit but FC said they introduced the damage cap on specials to stop instakills. This is crap because under current implementation no adjustments are made after an inital special attack so 3 hit kills are still possible, easily.

Do you mean that a special always hit for 40% of current hp or do you mean that only the first shots hit for 40% of current hp?

So I assume that nukes also hit for max 40% of current hp?
3 nukes can kill me so it's the same.

They shouldn't mess with more restriction, if the specials are too powerful they should check why they are to powerful, is it because people often crit with them? is it becuase the weapon they use are to powerful and need to be adjusted? and things like that

[________Armycastaway]

Just Some FYI. well the reason docs are so much better at healign is cause they raise Nano Init and can cast much faster heals, and get much better heals than the other classes. That is why docs or much better in PvP. But traders r the ones who need nerfing! they just got too much IMO. but thats just my thoughts.

Specials = maxed at 40 perc. But fling shot hardly ever hits near this unless its a crit. Burst is variant but ends up around 25-30 percent. Hell soldiers lose specials at times, cuz the guns seem bugged. And now that weapon switching takes awhile it sux!

And NTs...good NTs use the absorb programs...maybe you dont. thats not my problem. But high level NTs are damn near impossible to kill in 3 shots even 4. Anyhow when this root stuff is introduced in new patch NTs should have a fighting chance vs some classes....IE advents/ma' etc.. soldiers maybe..not sure if one hit healing will still break roots...its not a "negative program"

As far as i understand ALL other attacks other than specials (a NT nuke is not a special!) are cut in half.

[meriweather]

Well if I could instacast 3 nukes that would normally hit for 2k+ each (and don't say that's crap, almost all soldiers that PvP are packing high ql scopes and have LMA or better running in their NCU) in the space of the time it takes to hit 3 keys then you might have a point, seems I can't then you don't.

Layered does ****. Best an NT can wear is 725 off all dmg types but you're looking at being lvl 165+ to use that. Most are struggling to use sub-500 layered shields and they'd be stripped in one hit with enough damage remaining to still cap @ 40%.

Don't even try and compare nukes to weapon damage because they are so far removed from each other that they are in seperate Universes. What with min-max damage variation being what it is and the pathetic dmg output of most nukes that are practical from a cast/recharge standpoint suitable for PvP, you show me any NT that can hit consistently for the same sort of damage another player with a high AMS and decvent weapon and I 'll eat the underwear garment of your choice.

This isn't supposed to be an NT v Soldier PvP pillow-fight, I'm just pointing out the actual game implementation of the damage cap does not match its description.

[assassimon]

Don't even try and compare nukes to weapon damage because they are so far removed from each other that they are in seperate Universes. What with min-max damage variation being what it is and the pathetic dmg output of most nukes that are practical from a cast/recharge standpoint suitable for PvP, you show me any NT that can hit consistently for the same sort of damage another player with a high AMS and decvent weapon and I 'll eat the underwear garment of your choice.

I think your weapon and nuke can do same amount of damage as another prof your lvl

You have blue weapon skill for 1 reason, so you shouldn't make as much damage with a weapon only as someone that only have a weapon.

You have weapon and nuke, soldiers only have weapon, but they have higher skill in weapons and do more damage.

You not really only using nukes and think that's enought?
You see any good docs using DoTs only?

I don't know why you want to eat underwear, isn't that kinda hard to swallow?

[_______________Garzu]

Hmmm, I dont agree shields is to powerful, only change I think should happen is htat soldiers should be rooted while MK is running, just as NTs is rooted while nullity is running. That would prevent the "MK X up, zone into 25% zone, run aruond, find a target, instakill with specials, then run back and zone out, then sit and wait till specials recycle.... "

Crits is to damn easy, specially with buffs and scope, my evades are totally useless against that...

And as everybody knows I want, but still say it since we are talking balance here, heals should have the same rules as dmg 50%, or dmg should have same rules as heals 100%.

[assassimon]

Originally posted by Garzu
Hmmm, I dont agree shields is to powerful, only change I think should happen is htat soldiers should be rooted while MK is running, just as NTs is rooted while nullity is running. That would prevent the "MK X up, zone into 25% zone, run aruond, find a target, instakill with specials, then run back and zone out, then sit and wait till specials recycle.... "

Crits is to damn easy, specially with buffs and scope, my evades are totally useless against that...

And as everybody knows I want, but still say it since we are talking balance here, heals should have the same rules as dmg 50%, or dmg should have same rules as heals 100%.

I actually didn't know that the NT was rooted while nullity is running, I more wonder why NTs are rooted ay special "RP" reason?

I guess it would make the zone in, MK, alpha **** a little bit better if soldiers couldn't move (and were rooted 10sec longer than MK ran so we could kill them fast:P)

[Oljalyn]

How the hell can an engineer heal himself/herself using pet heals? It has got to be an exploit if it is possible since the heal I'm currently using heals for 1300ish hp (max). If I could use that on myself I might last for 15 seconds in pvp instead of 10, and that can't be right.

[assassimon]

Originally posted by Magikha
How the hell can an engineer heal himself/herself using pet heals? It has got to be an exploit if it is possible since the heal I'm currently using heals for 1300ish hp (max). If I could use that on myself I might last for 15 seconds in pvp instead of 10, and that can't be right.

It is an exploit, I have reported to FC twice, but as with many other pretty serious exploits, they don't seem to care much(it might have been fixed lately, I have no engi/crat(except a lvl 23))