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Thread: Mysterious and Unexplainable Deaths!

  1. #21

    Re: input

    Originally posted by Ladeda
    I have a cable modem. I play in the early hours of the morning to avoid "local" causes for "packet loss". All of my characters are on RK1. I have had numerous incidents of this nature. In most cases the fight is over I heal up then WHAMMOO I'm dead. I'm not having any of the other symptoms of "lag". I can notice those almost instantly... but then am left in terror. Because there is nothing I can do and I have no idea how bad the consequences will be. (I've lost bags full of valuable stuff and money as well as XP!!) So I would rule out Lag as being the cause. And it seems to happen more frequently in zones that are sparsely populated so that also suggests something other than "lag".

    I'd almost say that this game "calculates" that a character should die and just kills them. It's a random thing. I had a level 18 character that was close to leveling. She went to Omni HQ to help a lower level player finish a mission. She is an MP and didn't team with the other character - just put a heal pet on him and tagged along. When we got done we went back to the gate. My MP had switched to Social Armor and only had a heal pet active which was under command to heal her - as zoning caused you to take damage from your implants (as in the game didn't calculate your implant bonuses). When "out of the Blue" the Elite Guard killed my character instantly. I lost the entire levels worth of XP. And the "cause" was never explained to me!! BTW this was that character's first trip to the reclaim booth.

    You can argue about the use of modems... I don't care. I sincerely don't think the issue has anything to do with lag. All I do know is that it makes people not want to play AO. If FunCom wants people to play their game then they need to address the issue. Somehow I don't think they care!


    You hit that one right on... All this does is make it so people do not want to play AO.. And if I said I was one of those, someone would tell me to go away.

    And to those other people reading this that would say go away, you know if I did go away and all those others that some tell to go away, DO go away... well then the rest of you will not have ANY Anarchy Online to play because most of us will have gone away causing AO to shut down.

    Look at Ultima Online. It almost died because of the very same issues. Even today it survives barely but not even close to what it once was. Is that what everyone wants for AO? Because if so, many of us being told to go away will do just that and you can then complain to an empty gamespace about why no one is online anymore.

    Malakie

  2. #22
    Originally posted by Soozan
    Okay, you said that you're sick of people thinking they're better than you because they have a faster connection. However, what the hell is this?



    *GASP!* Are you generalizing a populous? Just because we chose to live in a larger city we're not intelligent? Hmmm.


    As said before I was being sarcastic to that poster.. but you are correct and I probably should not have stooped to his level...

    Originally posted by Soozan

    Um. It REALLY isn't the server's fault. Take any multiplayer game. Connect to a server and play using a modem. Connect to the same server with DSL or a cable connection. I gaurantee you will see improvement. So this is no insult to you in any way, but a LARGE portion of the lag you are experiancing may be the result of your modem.

    Also, one of the main hold-ups I experiance during populated hours is the GRAPHICAL loading of the characters. Each character looks different, moves independently, and requires a lot of power to process. The only difference I ever experiance is the loading of the areas where there are large congregations of people. And think about this. The server has to send you information about what each person is wearing, what action they are doing, what direction they are moving, what buffs they are running. That's a lot of information... do you really think that a 56kbps modem (if they ever ran that fast, ever wonder why you never download from anywhere at the advertised 56k/sec?) can EASILY handle that? Tell me what system could!

    And again, it is NOT the modems fault. Did you read what I posted?

    The REASON you are having better through put is because your DSL or cable can process MORE ERRORS faster than a modem!!!!

    Your DSL or cable can request a new packet for every error much faster than a modem.. that is obvious. Get rid of the errors and guess what? The modem can process the information for the game as fast as the dsl.. just not as much of it.

    So yes, if you put 100 players in the same area, you may get a slight speed decrease on a modem than you would DSL or cable BUT as long as there are no errors in the data stream, there still would be no noticable decrease in gameplay speed.

    Now, we could all move to DSL and cable (if that were possible) but the errors would still be there and eventually a limit would be reached even with users all on DSL and Cable.... and you would see the same problem.. Then what are you going to blame?


    Originally posted by Soozan

    You never played Half-Life did you. You never noticed that when you pressed "fire" it took a noticable time for it to actually fire. There certainly was a reason why LPB's were refered to as "Low Ping Bastads." When they fired a bullet, it went were it was aimed, when a modem user fired they had to anticipate where they would move in the next second. There certainly is "more skill" involved in modem gaming, but that's because of the modem's downfalls.

    Also, since the "bug" is the latency, can you HONESTLY tell me that a modem helps you in the least? It IS the modems fault. It is all of our faults for not having T1 lines installed!

    Oh wait, you're right, it is funcom's fault. I suggest we just turn the game into 2D side scroller. That would solve everything!

    So enjoy sulking in your bitterness.

    NOTE: During busy server times everyone will lag. That's life.
    Never played Half-life so don't know about that.

    But I am a engineer, hardware and code and I can tell you that you are wrong. I HAVE and DO design systems that have a MUCH HIGHER load on them than ANY online gaming system has ever come up with. And some clients MUST use modems because they are on laptops in the field. And you know something? Our systems do not have this problem. And in fact, if they did, people would loose their lives for REAL.

    Look at it from this point. A 56K modem can transfer 56,000 bits of information PER SECOND. That is a lot of information in computer terms. Usually it is done in packets with each packet containing the next in a long string of information.. all of it 1's and 0's. As long as that stream is not interrupted, information flies. When it is disrupted, the packet has to be resent. When a packet is resent, that is known as lag.

    Plus a server will NOT send more information than the other end can receive at once. In other words, a server is not going to send a modem a packet that is 56,000,000 bits long all at once because it knows it cannot handle it. The modem requests and tells the server what to send and the server does. And it all happens faster than you can imagine.

    In online games, usually they SET packets to a certain size.. ONE size for all packets. This is why they say the game can be played with 56K modems. Because they have designed the data stream and the packets to contain what information is required and since the information required to play the game fits into that size stream, a modem can handle it IF there is no interruption of that stream.

    The problem is NOT modems or dsl or anything else. It is the infrastructure between the user and the server. Whether it is the code on the server, the server itself, the routers or the connecting fiber or coax cabling between the two locations, something is causing the problem. NOT the users modems.

    If I can send information to modems that is critical to someone life WITHOUT error or lag or loss of data, then others can also. And IF I can send REAL TIME DATA INCLUDING VIDEO over 56K that someones life depends on, then game development companies can do so also.

    There is no argument in the world that will change that because I do it every single day.

    Malakie

  3. #23

    Post Yes, well, if only!

    You don't say how your users use their modems, if they dial into your servers, then you probably can do everything you say. The internet is a rather different setup though...

    And packet loss isn't lag, though the effects can be simillar. Games such as Half-Life minimise the effects of packet loss byNOT resending data, but using client side prediction and maintaining the master state only on the server. The server is the 'real' world, the client is only ever an approximation. This helps with lag (delays in transmission) aswell, but leads to 'jumping' when the server manages to update the client, and prevents different clients from agreeing on the game state at any given time.

    Your discussion is pretty accurate in all other respects.

    From what I've read, AO uses TCP which isn't a very good idea for internet online gaming in real-time or near real-time, and I suspect a lot of the problems relate to that. i've no idea of the details of AO's network infrastructure so can't comment further.

  4. #24

    Re: Yes, well, if only!

    Originally posted by Darkbane
    You don't say how your users use their modems, if they dial into your servers, then you probably can do everything you say. The internet is a rather different setup though...

    And packet loss isn't lag, though the effects can be simillar. Games such as Half-Life minimise the effects of packet loss byNOT resending data, but using client side prediction and maintaining the master state only on the server. The server is the 'real' world, the client is only ever an approximation. This helps with lag (delays in transmission) aswell, but leads to 'jumping' when the server manages to update the client, and prevents different clients from agreeing on the game state at any given time.

    Your discussion is pretty accurate in all other respects.

    From what I've read, AO uses TCP which isn't a very good idea for internet online gaming in real-time or near real-time, and I suspect a lot of the problems relate to that. i've no idea of the details of AO's network infrastructure so can't comment further.

    Darkbane - Thanks for clarifying on that. I agree. And you are most likely correct on what FC-AO is doing now that I think about the way things work while online.

    In terms of the lag, I have to wonder though... AO's lag does not seem to be the same as one would see in Half-life. According to the tests I have run with my tools while running AO, it does not seem to be an internet issue. Sometimes the problem appears to be a routing issue on the FC side. And other times I get a server 'busy' signal. The one common factor each and every time however is that all of the tools agree the 'lag' is FC based whether routing, server or what is anyones guess.

    Personally, I think it is server based. When I play at 3am my time, there is absolutely no lag issues what so ever. As 7am approaches, you start to see more and more people log in to the game. And as each new person logs in, return data times get longer and longer and longer until suddenly I start seeing the server busy messages again. Based on this, I would suggest that they have way to many people on a server OR the servers they are using are not powerful enough to process all of the data needed for that many packet requests.

    The ping remains constant and does not change during this. Only the actual packet information being returned changes. That suggests that it is indeed server based, not internet or tcp based.

    Malakie

  5. #25

    Post OK...

    Thanks Malakie, very interesting.

  6. #26

    from the sound

    From the sound of it this sounds like a bug. Not lag. If it was lag it wouldnt be well after the battle. Notice how it happens usually when someone is healing after battle. And that people have lost ITEMS. Im throwing my money towards glitch, not lag.
    Long live the metal
    Death to OT SCUM!!
    Member of the Mercury Dragons
    Divillian

  7. #27

    Red face cities do suck...

    Man... Could Soozan be any more frustrating? This post is truly as useless as any of his/hers as I just couldn't help but jump in only to say how god damn irritating that person is.

    Not only did he/she devalue a bug I'd like to see looked into by sticking his or her head up her ass and blaming it on
    connection speed, but she posted just to be antagonistic(sorta like this post, but I couldn't take it anymore..).

    FURTHERMORE she then makes some idiodic reply without even reading malakie's(sp) post as she probably got bored after the first sentance because there were no pictures.

    I imagine a homeless man balls deep in a grapefruit producing more useful information than Soozan on her best day.

    I'd like to continue, but picturing Soozan's balnk ignorant stare at the monitor is too discouraging....


    (edited for content)
    Last edited by Karax; Mar 3rd, 2002 at 12:41:55.

  8. #28

    Modem lag

    Ok, fyi, I don't think the issue is network lag in general, otherwise why do my ping times stay constant? I am not on a "modem" but run a 128K ISDN terminal adapter and am getting a full 128K throughput, I personally believe, and this is from my experience playing text muds and such, and yes I have been around a long time, that there is a thing called the command queue or process queue, it basically sorts in order the commands that need special attention, this is not the whole deal, but for this post enough. Now what you guys are calling sync issues, I believe are actually queue issues, commands are going in faster to the queue than the queue can process them. As an example you kill a mob, the command to kill the mob object or change the flag (if they are using some type of mud code base or they might be doing a kill object recreate new object, doesn't really matter the same basic process occurs) goes to the queue but the queue is backed up so the command doesn't process right away, you get the message mob dead because the program says when this happens send this command to change mob state from live to dead and send message to client. Problem is that with the queue backed up, the object, in this case the mob does not get reacted upon, its state of being dead or alive does not change because the command to effect this change is stuck in the process queue and since the object is still a "live" object it continues to fight. The message mob dead goes out because that doesn't go through the process queue, it is just a text echo to the client terminal.
    I may be wrong on this, I didn't write the code nor have I seen it, but I am basing it as I have said from my mud experience and the assumption that like Everquest, this game is basically built around mud and database technology. But others I have talked to seem to think it is the same thing. It really isn't a sync thing other than the server is unable to process change of state commands fast enough. The information is getting to the server, usually, but the server can't react to the information fast enough.

  9. #29

    Arrow Yep

    Which means the client and server are out of sync... Hmm? Your explanation makes sense, it is pretty clear that some processing occurs at the client and the rest at the server. In an ideal world, all processing would occur server side, with the client just collecting and forwarding user input and processing and displaying server commands. In practice, some of this load needs to be at least simulated on the client. I'd guess that as AO currently stands, too much is done client side. Whilst this may ease lag/latency/packet loss issues, it can result in de-sync, and AO seems very bad at correcting de-sync at times...

  10. #30

    Thumbs down Gelder = Redleg = Can't read box

    Originally posted by Gelder


    The "so-called" bug is the lag latency between the server and the client, Funcom is highly aware of the problem, but has not really a solution to it as many of the players live in USA and ... are actually playing on modems.

    If you are playing over a modem, sorry, but then you have no one else to blame than yourself.
    That is one of the most ignorant statements I have read in a LONG time. (even counting Derisor's)

    Have you looked on the sys reqs on the box for AO Mr. Gelder? Hmmm, seems not hence the ignorant statement. Say more so I can giggle.

    <<<EDIT: add Snoozen to the 56k is ur fault category. Read the box girl>>>
    Last edited by Kodiene; Mar 8th, 2002 at 04:28:30.
    Kodiene
    Founding member of P.E.T.A.
    People for the Ethical Treatment of Atrox's
    PAINKILLR
    Mercenaries of Kai

    "I personally think nerfs are death in an emergency patch. It is very cool to admit that there are a lot of things we can do boring, very boring in-game. Your input is being adjusted in some Fouls. I want to especially thank the players who WILL die.
    Have Fun! And I'll be seeing you online
    jonhelgi, designer - AO"

  11. #31

    THIS IS NOT ABOUT LAG/MODEMS

    I've seen this happen multiple times in team missions. It has nothing to do with lag. An invisible mob will attack, but the victim doesn't know anything until they keel over. The rest of the team goes "wtf?!?" and runs for the zone. The one time we didn't have to zone was when the engie's bot killed the mob right after the team member died, the bot walked out of the wall where it had been hiding, and we all got xp. This only happens in the large rooms and mission type (cave, building, etc.) doesn't affect whether it happens or not.

    If it was a lag issue, an entire team would not see (or not see, as the case is) the same thing. Personally, I have a cable modem; and it's not Cox! I'm on RK-1 if that helps.

  12. #32
    Yes, if you start to get phantom hits, zone immediately.

    Team was wiped out more than once in notime by this.

    It seems to be fixed of late though, but it could be that the mission crashes and resets before this particular bug rears its head.
    Katelin Arinia Rhees
    Level 220 Enforcer
    Former Enforcer Professional
    Former President of the late Midnight Reveries
    Account Created: 2001-10-08; Account Expired: 2005-02-19

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