The Sentinels -Leaders of the Clans? (long)

[Vixentrox]

Originally posted by Fixerben
Now thats the Omni-Tek I know and love. They are living beings no matter how unintelligent they may be.

So are...borgs...rollerrats...bileswars...ect.

Atroxes are intelligent enough to communicate, formulate strategy, and lead battles. They are smart enough to join Illuminati. Eight of them listed as members, one as a Squad Commander...the same rank as Gestava amazingly enough.

[Fixerben]

Originally posted by Vixentrox
...the same rank as Gestava amazingly enough.

Maybe someone just doesnt like him and is trying to insult him?

[pudds4tw]

The Illuminati rank system does not reflect authority. Illuminati is not a military organisation. It is an informal (by omni-tek standards) faction with no real command structure.

And I don't recall saying I dislike atrox? I said I don't regard them to be the equal to a solitus. I don't regard dogs as equals to solituses either but I like dogs.

Don't mix the two issues, because they are not the same.

[Vixentrox]

So...an applicant has same authority in Illuminati as the guild leader? Interesting. So this atrox squad commander rates about the same as a dog to you? Hmm...wonder what the atrox thinks about that.

[pudds4tw]

No, did I say everyone was equal?
You must start listening to what I say.

I said rank does not equal authority. That doesnt mean that everyone has equal say, it means that the rank that just happens to be slapped on to someone doesnt necessarily reflect their influence.

As for what the atrox would say. I don't know. I've never brought it up. Frankly I don't see the point.

[Cemetarygate]

Gestava, some of the moderate clans lack the ability to take phrases for what they actually are. Take Fixerben's interpretation of the following phrase.

ICC receives the first serious complaints regarding Omni-Tek workers' conditions on Rubi-Ka. The mortality rate of the miners is alarmingly high, as are reports of brutality by security forces.

No were does the word equipment appear in that statement, yet Fixerben deducts they are referring to equipment. If we take the statement for what it actually is, then one should deduct that the "brutality by security forces" are the leading cause of the "mortality rate of the miners [being] alarmingly high" and thus the complaints regarding the "workers' conditions." In simple terms, the clans are implying that guards are beating them to death and they want the beatings stopped.

Fixerben is guided by too much emotion. Thus, his preception of reality is twisted, and is effecting his verbal and physical actions. So, talking sense to them is a mut point, as you will only enrage their emotion and further cause their twisted reality.

On another note, you've peaked my interest in what constitutes authority within your guild? Plus, if there is no real command stucture then why utilize the departement structure over that of say anarchist structure?

[pudds4tw]

((It's pretty much impossible to justify my guild in RP terms since it's in no way a RP guild but just a bunch of friends. I'm pretty much the only RP'er there ))

Try to look as our guild, not as a productive organisation, but rather as a social connection network. A club if you like.

All the members of the guild have work outside the guild. I am employed by Omni-AF, I am not subject to Illuminati as some kind of subdivision there.

The department functions as a place where we meet up after our workdays are over and as such it is natural that "authority" is very casual.

The senior members of the department generally decide on matters which needs to be settled. Otherwise we try not to have situations where use of authority is needed.

Btw, this should also diffuse the myth that Omni-tek employees have no other life than their work *chuckles*

[Vixentrox]

(bleh..another RPer surrounded with 2Ds. Heheh)

[pudds4tw]

((hehe, 2ds? Never heard that expression before ))

[Vixentrox]

(My pet name for non-rpers defining their shallowness. Two-dimenisional people. May as well be static NPC's since their cookie-cutter creativity seems to be limited to how to score next peice of loot or be uber)

[pudds4tw]

((ah, now that's not fair. They're great people and creative. They're just not into RP most of them. Each to their own.

Anyway, let's not turn this into a thread about the merits of RP'ing or not RP'ing ))

[Cemetarygate]

Originally posted by Gestava
((ah, now that's not fair. They're great people and creative. They're just not into RP most of them. Each to their own.

Anyway, let's not turn this into a thread about the merits of RP'ing or not RP'ing ))

(( Too late, I've already started composing my next post... muwhahahahaha... ))

[______________Emiliy]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate


(( Too late, I've already started composing my next post... muwhahahahaha... ))

((Emiliy digs through her back pack and pulls out a roll of duct tape

Don't make me use this... ))

Threads degrading to the point of madness and insanity are everyone's concern.

Duct Tape Protects.

[Cyani]

((ah, now that's not fair. They're great people and creative. They're just not into RP most of them. Each to their own.

Anyway, let's not turn this into a thread about the merits of RP'ing or not RP'ing ))

Nice to see you out and about Bearded One

Causing trouble as usual...


(( I have to agree with you here.. not really fair and my non-rp friends make this game just as enjoyable as my RP friends.. It's sad because most of my Non-RP friends I guess overlook or tolerate me when I go strict IC and RP... Most problems the Non-RP crowd haswith the RP crowd is the elitest attitude a few RPers hold over everyone else.. And sorry Gestava for biting and turning this into a RP/Non-RP thread.. ))

Speaking of Trouble

We should drag Nya and Baxie out of their cages for some real fun

[Fixerben]

(Ok Cem, here comes the smack down )

Originally posted by Cemetarygate
No were does the word equipment appear in that statement, yet Fixerben deducts they are referring to equipment. If we take the statement for what it actually is, then one should deduct that the "brutality by security forces" are the leading cause of the "mortality rate of the miners [being] alarmingly high" and thus the complaints regarding the "workers' conditions." In simple terms, the clans are implying that guards are beating them to death and they want the beatings stopped.

Now, Let me show you.

ICC receives the first serious complaints regarding Omni-Tek workers' conditions on Rubi-Ka. The mortality rate of the miners is alarmingly high, as are reports of brutality by security forces. Meanwhile, the salaries of OT workers are starting a downwards slide, caused - officials say - by a decline in the galactic economy and the demand for notum.

ICC submits a formal complaint - signed by the majority of member corporations - regarding the working conditions on Rubi-Ka to the Omni-Tek board, and demands that improvements be made immediately.

After a series of terrible accidents, the Guild announces a general strike, demanding new equipment, reduced shifts, and higher salaries. Omni-Tek declares the strike illegal, and sends in heavily armed troops to ensure the continued operation of the mines.

ICC intervenes before the hostilities turn violent. New contracts are drafted and signed. The miners receive a moderate increase in their salaries, and Omni-Tek promises to upgrade the antiquated equipment used in the mines.

Read your history and you will see that many of the deaths in the mines were caused by out dated mining equipment. You think brutality caused the accidents that led them to demand new equipment? That doesnt make much sense. It would only make sense that "After a series of terrible accidents, the Guild" begins "demanding new equipment,

Even Omni-Tek admitted it was "antiquated".

But yes there was also "brutality by security forces".

[pudds4tw]

((/me wonders if he knows cyani from somewhere...

Yes, Bax and Nya are much fun ))

[pudds4tw]

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that I find it interesting that Omni-tek is so often accused of lying or twisting the truth. It is curious to note that even amongst the clans there are very different opinions about what is "the truth".

Even in a case of the dispute being a fairly well documented historical event.

[Cemetarygate]

(( Smack down? Damn wrestling fans. Bah. ))

Fixerben, you used the first statement to back your original argument, when in fact you should have used the third statement. But even then, the statement is worded "after a series of terrible accidents," not "due to the following." Plus, your ignoring "reduced shifts."

"Reduced shifts," for example could have been the leading cause. Let's say the miners were working some 100 hours (fictitious number obviously, as we don't know the true number) a week. The miners were overworked causing them to perform at below optimal levels, and perhaps sleep deprived causing them to fall asleep on the job, which lead to increased accidents at the site. Thus, equipment was not the problem. (In fact, they could have asked for new equipment to make their job easier.)

However, in actuallity, neither of us can conclude that equipment or working hours was the leading cause of accidents as we don't have all the information. Thus, either of us attempting to prove one over the other is futile.

More importantly, you can see the clans didn't mind working in the mines so long as they had better working conditions, as you, yourself, have begun to argue that fact. So, the clans wanted to mine notum, but again, so long as it was on their terms, with their ideal of 'improved working conditions.' Thus, "notum mining is a "real clan" goal and has been since clans first rebelled."

(( edit : fixed typo "mind" not "mine" ))

[Fixerben]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate
However, in actuallity, neither of us can conclude that equipment or working hours was the leading cause of accidents as we don't have all the information. Thus, either of us attempting to prove one over the other is futile.

Cem I just pointed out to you where Omni-Tek admitted the equipment was "antiquated". Did you miss that? And 'logically' it would only make sense that the old equipment caused the accidents, otherwise why would they begin demanding new equipment only after the accidents? The logical conclusion would be that since they demanded the equipment right after the accidents that the equipment was the cause.

I'm sure it was a combination of things that led to the high mortality rate. But you can be assured it was not the miners faults. It was Omni-Tek's abuse and neglect of the miners.

And the miners hated working the mines. They wanted to get out as soon as they could. Why else would we have revolted, unless we didnt like working in the mines. The only reason the miners worked in the mines was because it was all they could do to live on the planet. Until the revolt, then they could leave and be free.

To say that the miners didnt mind working in the mines is just plain silly. You know the revolt was because of the mines. Why would you say that the miners didnt mind working in the source of so much death and pain. Even less intelligent life forms can comprehend pain, and know when to stay away from it. Why then would you assume that the miners would want to keep going into a mine with harsh conditions? That makes no sense.

The fact is, as stated by OT themselves. The mining equipment was old and unsafe. And the mining equipment itself caused much death and pain.

[Cemetarygate]

Antiquated means old. Old does not mean to cause accidents. So, you can't conclude that because the equipment was old it was causing accidents. Again, we don't have all the facts so we can't conclude the cause. Please, stop assuming the cause.

The fact is, as stated by OT themselves. The mining equipment was old and unsafe. And the mining equipment itself caused much death and pain.

Making things up again are you? Couldn't find this in the timeline, would you mind providing the source for this information?

And the miners hated working the mines. They wanted to get out as soon as they could. Why else would we have revolted, unless we didnt like working in the mines. The only reason the miners worked in the mines was because it was all they could do to live on the planet. Until the revolt, then they could leave and be free.

No, the miners did not hate the mines. Again, you're assuming things. The reason they revolted was because they were "dissatisfied with Omni-Tek management and broken promises." (taken from timeline again) Omni-Tek's inability, or lack of desire, to provide their workers the requested conditions lead to their revolt.

To say that the miners didnt mind working in the mines is just plain silly. You know the revolt was because of the mines. Why would you say that the miners didnt mind working in the source of so much death and pain. Even less intelligent life forms can comprehend pain, and know when to stay away from it. Why then would you assume that the miners would want to keep going into a mine with harsh conditions? That makes no sense.

If they truely did not want to work in the mines, then why complain to the ICC about "Omni-Tek workers' conditions on Rubi-Ka;" why didn't they ask the ICC to take them away; why didn't they ask SBC to take them away, but instead continued to mine and sell it to SBC; and why are they mining today? Yes, they are intelligent creatures. And if they are intelligent and truely did not want to mine they would have left the planet long ago.

So, can't be too silly to say they wanted to mine when they didn't walk away and continued to mine.

As I said, and please listen as you've overlooked this apparently, they didn't mind working in the mines so long as they were given the conditions they asked for. Clans mine today because they can provide themselves the working conditions they have always asked for, because they are under their own management.

Why you continue to deny this, and continue to look for any piece of evidence to deny this, is beyond me. The timeline clearly shows they wanted to mine, and the fact clans mine today clearly show they want to mine. I realize your primary focus is democracy. Perhaps that's why you continue to deny notum mining is, and has been, one of our goals.

Or perhaps, and I truely believe this is the real reason, by you admitting our notum mining goals that would be accepting the Sentinels for one of the reaons in which they stand. This, I feel, leads you to deny much of the facts in the timeline, and stretch truths. By you denying this goal, that gives you a reason to classify the Sentinels as non-clan, and gives you a reason to attack and kill them. All for the purpose to satisfy your own means.

I accept the Sentinels because they support our notum mining goals, and because they keep our captial city safe. I disagree with their views to attack those that truely have no stance in the conflict. However, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. If that means the blood of a few must shed for our greater cause, then so be it.

When such a time presents itself, and a greater clan group than the Sentinels arise, I will support and accept them as being the guaridans of our captial city.

As I'm to understand, some have already chosen the Knights for this. Which, unfortuantly, is a grave mistake. Galahad was laughed out of CoT meetings, and he lets Omnis roam through his castle at will. That being the case, I can just imagine Omni-Tek laughing Galahad out of Tir and roaming through Tir once again. In which case, I consider the Sentinels the lesser of two evils.

There you have my summary of this entire debate, pretty much.