The Sentinels -Leaders of the Clans? (long)

[_________Lexusstreak]

Ok ok, paint me confused..so you're saying if he got elected, you'd be fine with him being there, but if he is not elected then you'd have a problem with it? What's the real difference, I am sure he would do his job no differently either way, one process just seems to me to take a drawn out, needless amount of time. it's like trying on different shoes when you already know what size you are, you can try on the other various sizes, but you still only know that one size will fit.

[UwensBack]

The difference is one is a democracy and the other is a dictatorship. If the majority of the clans want him to lead us, then I'll accept it. As it is, I've seen exactly two people voice support for the Sentinels. You and Cemetary. Thats not exactly a majority and the outcome might not be the same. But like I said, if he got elected in a free and impartial election, I would just deal with it because thats how democracy works. It would not take an extended amount of time to present candidates, hear their views, and then vote. Not a drawn out campaign, just seeing the candidates, hearing their views, and voting. I doubt Silverstone would be elected, but if he is, thats good. He would no longer be a dictator.

[_________Lexusstreak]

Red tape is all I see here. AS I see it, you have two people, doers and talkers. Silverstone is a great man because instead of sitting in some hall somewhere with his feet up talking about what was wrong with Tir, he went out and did things to make the situation better, how can he be marked as a dictator? granted I want to see him as my eventual leader sure, but your comment holds no water. You're saying, you'd rather see your own people die in the streets, but it's alright as long as people waste time sitting in a room debating and voting?

[_________Lexusstreak]

I actually in a small way feel democracy could work, if we were in a peace time state, but we are not, this is a war, in war, you need a military style leader who can make descisions without being burdened down in red tape. someone who can act on a whim without going through 20 or 30 people's approval.

[Cemetarygate]

"Leader of Tir." There is your problem, Uwen. Silverstone hasn't been elected leader of the clans, or Tir. Silverstone hasn't proclaimed himself leader of clans, or Tir. Silverstone has proclaimed himself protector of our capital city from all those that don't support our cause.

There's a difference between proclaiming oneself as leader and protector, or did you know that? Did he tell you to stop liking neutrals? Did he tell you to keep neutrals out of Tir? Did he tell you to shoot neutrals upon entering Tir? Did he tell you to stop talking to neutrals? The answer to all those questions is no. You have the free will to do all of those, and you somehow want me to believe those have been taken away from you?

So, your problem is that you perceive him to be some "leader of Tir" when he's not. He's just another person doing his part for the clans. You give him way too much credit, Uwen.

We have no leaders, Uwen. None. We need some though. Because all we have right now are guardians in all our cities, and people like you throwing around accusations that will rip our people apart.

[UwensBack]

He invaded and conquered Tir. He calls himself the Supreme Commander. He makes rulings against the public opinion that restrict neutrals from Tir. if you refuse to see that he believes himself to be the leader of the clans, that other Sentinel supporters like Lexus say he is the leader of the clans, then this argument is pointless.

I'm not saying things that will rip us apart. I am fighting my damndest for clan unity. I just don't want us unified by some egotistical dictator.

[Sallust]

An Open Letter to my fellow Clans

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What has happened to my fellow clans since the Council of Truth fell? What has befallen our war of liberation from Omni-Tek? Too many fell for the unproven allegations that the Council of Truth was behind the Dust Brigade. It lead to a de****able take over of Tir and Neutral lands by the ICC, a corporate body at the control of Omni-Tek and SOL banking corporation.

In the vacuum of leadership by our missing ruling Council the Clan Sentinels seized power and the city of Tir by force. They didn't just seize it from ICC, but also from rational clanners who object to their imposed agenda! Their agenda isn't the liberation and freedom of all people from Omni-Tek oppression, but rather they've attacked the weak pacificist neutrals. Probably because the Sentinels are too weak to attack Omni-Tek who is the real enemy and decided to make show of a group that we all know can't defend themselves. Look how meakly neutral guards were swept away by ICC corporate forces!

I implore all my fellow clanners not to give in to the terrorist ways of the Clan Sentinels and Dust Brigade (which uses our name, but has never been a part of us) and to remember that our true enemy are our oppressors and those who would impose their ways without consent on a free people! Instead take the hiring of mercenaries by the Newland government if it represents the will of the neutrals to finally fight for their own freedom! Though I suspect the mercenaries to be a ploy by Omni-Tek and ICC by secretly putting up the money to distract the people from our real fight for freedom. Regardless if neutrals are willing to fight for freedom on Rubi-Ka then in all honesty they are finally joining the clan struggle.

We should be fighting an honorable war of liberation to free ALL people from oppression, not just those under the clan banner but those who mistakenly call themselves neutral and even the "citizens" of Omni-Tek who don't know what true freedom is like out from under the hands of their masters. I call on the Lords of the Knights clans to emerge from their isolation and show us true leadership in the honorable struggle against Omni-Tek. Do not stand idly by while we need your honor and strength of arms the most! The true freedom loving clans must unite once again and reclaim the cities of Tir and Newland for all who would travel freely across Rubi-Ka.

Sincerely,

Raymond "Sallust" Reineman, Clan Elder of The Pilgrims

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I tried to get this published on Voice of Freedom or a few other sources or some other highly trafficed site for clan news. Unfortunately it appears that as an act of censorship to control the public all highly public news sources have been shut off by the Sentinels and Omni-Tek.

We must also fight to reverse this censorship. Do not fight their war blindly! You must first have free information for yourself and then you will see the Truth of the Clans which desire peace for Rubi-Ka!

[Cemetarygate]

Uwen, a democratic society can invade and conquer and have supreme commanders as well. Those first two statements prove nothing.

"He makes rulings against the public opinion that restrict neutrals from Tir." Prove these, please. So me the public opinion pole, then show me ruling where Silverstone forbid the information.

I've asked you for proof before, Uwen. You said you'd get back to me and never did. I'm asking you for proof again before I see him as a dictator. Let's hope you don't disappear on me again.

"I am fighting my damndest for clan unity." Ironic to hear you say that considering your fighting against clans at the present. And you don't see how your dividing the clans apart? No wonder you can't see Silverstone for what he really is.

[UwensBack]

I'm not fighting against the clans. And how about this for a public opinion poll: There exactly two Sentinels supporters I have ever met and I know plenty of people. You and Lexus are the only ones. Everyone else wants them out. That good enough for you? And how about you prove I'm fighting against the clans. No wonder you don't know what Silverstone really is.

[Cemetarygate]

Uwen, by your own words you admitted fighting against clans, and now have to gull to ask me to prove it? If you insist.

Originally posted by Uwen
For your information, we've tried many things. Killing them [Sentinels a clan faction] doesn't work so we're trying something else. For your information, we've already started a plan to remove the Sentinels [clan faction] and the inactivity is not on our part.

Originally posted by Uwen
I have worked with Nelida and Fixerben to kill Sentinels [clan faction]. You can ask them. I've died fighting Sentinels [clan faction].

Originally posted by Uwen
I have, however, assisted in killing multiple Sentinels [clan faction] and almost died again attacking Wickham [clan citizen].

There's the proof you asked for. Now it's your turn. Again, So me the public opinion pole, then show me ruling where Silverstone forbid the information.

Prove to me you know what you're talking about, as I've proved to you I know what I'm talking about.

[UwensBack]

I'm not fighting against the clans. I am fighting for the clans. Until Silverstone is elected, he is a threat to the real clan ideals. He is just another threat. So, once again, prove how I am fighting the clans. Killing Sentinels is not fighting the clans.

And I thought I did prove it to you? There are two Sentinel supporters I've ever met. There are dozens that want him gone. Dozens vs. 2. I think thats majority.

[Cemetarygate]

Uwen, you've literally assisted in taking another clan life and justify your murder by stating "he is a threat to the real clan ideals." You don't even know what the "real clan ideals" are if your killing the Sentinels.

The Sentinels are a primary supporter of our notum mining. Notum mining is a "real clan" goal and has been since clans first rebelled. By killing the Sentinels you're denying this as one of our goals.

No, you've proved nothing. Dozens of clans make up less than 1% of the clan population. In democracy, a majority is called for. I hardly feel that less than 1% is the majority. Not to mention the fact I asked you to show me where Silverstone forbid this information (even if you did take your less than 1% support group to him).

(( Could make for an interesting event though. Stand around and actually take opinions from passerbys. ))

[Fixerben]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate
You don't even know what the "real clan ideals" are if your killing the Sentinels.

The Sentinels are a primary supporter of our notum mining. Notum mining is a "real clan" goal and has been since clans first rebelled. By killing the Sentinels you're denying this as one of our goals.

Excuse me? Now who is making things up? Cem, The reason the Clans were formed was not to take Notum Mines, or to stop Omni-Tek from mining Notum. The Clans were formed to bring democracy to Rubi-Ka. If we are out for just Notum mining that makes us just as profiteering and gluttonous as Omni-Tek and we might as well fill out the App.

It has never been a goal of the Clans to mine Notum. The mines were seized during the revolt to provide leverage against the Corporation. We didnt take the mines to take the money.

Even under the Tir Accord the rules were the same as they are now. Nothing has changed. We have always been receiving profits from the Notum. Though I have never seen a single credit of it, before or after the CoT. But our goal was not to mine the Notum so OT couldnt. They end up getting profits for it anyways.

[Fixerben]

And not everyone considers the Sentinels to be Clan. I most certainly do not.

[UwensBack]

Dammit, I continue to let myself slip. Ok, now, I've got to stop. I'll just have to accept that soem people are just going to be wrong and there's nothing I can do about it. A little GSP should help with this problem.

[Cemetarygate]

Fixerben, I didn't say "take Notum Mine, or to stop Omni-Tek from mining Notum." I said, "notum mining is a "real clan" goal and has been since clans first rebelled."

In case you didn't know, clans first action was in 29,199, "demanding new equipment, reduced shifts, and higher salaries." This dealt strickly with notum mining. Thus, my comment, "notum mining is a "real clan" goal and has been since clans first rebelled." And you say I'm making things up?

Wasn't until 29,206 that clans stated they wanted "a democratic Rubi-Ka; run by the people, for the people."

I can see you're an intelligent person, Fixerben, but you're letting emotion cloud your statements and your ability to comprehend the facts in a logical manner. Please review the timeline and news archives, and put your emotions in check. Until then, our conversation is over until you can prove to me you can speak intelligently, unclouded by emotion, on the subject matter.

Uwen, same goes for you.

[Fixerben]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate
clans first action was in 29,199, "demanding new equipment, reduced shifts, and higher salaries." This dealt strickly with notum mining.

They made these demands "After a series of terrible accidents". So to me this sounds like they wanted better working conditions, and better lives for them selves and their families. Sounds to me like they want to have the freedoms and benefits that the OT workers enjoyed. Not that they wanted to mine Notum. Infact many Clanners left the Notum mines, and never wanted to see another as long as they lived. They only wanted what they should have for the hard work they put in.

Originally posted by Cemetarygate
"demanding new equipment,

They demanded new equipment because their equipment was unsafe and not in good working condition. Infact here is proof:

ICC receives the first serious complaints regarding Omni-Tek workers' conditions on Rubi-Ka. The mortality rate of the miners is alarmingly high, as are reports of brutality by security forces.

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Originally posted by Cemetarygate
reduced shifts,

They wanted reduced shifts because they felt like they were being forced into long strenuous work hours and it was literally killing them.

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Originally posted by Cemetarygate
and higher salaries."

They wanted higher salaries because they could see the OT employees that werent working in the mines, and the good things they enjoyed. While the miners slept in camps, and small mining towns.

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Our rebellion was not about Notum, it was about how the Miners didnt receive what they thought was fair. How you get "A Clan goal is to Mine Notum", from the statement you just quoted is beyond me. That statement is about how the miners were treated unfairly, and inhumanely.

Our rebellion was about personal freedom, and our right to live as individuals. Not to be forced to slave like work conditions in unsafe mines.

It was about freedom.

[Fixerben]

And this my friend:

Volunteer workers - battling both the elements and a growing contingent of Omni-Tek security personnel who are doing everything they can to stop the rescue efforts, citing "safety reasons" - clear out the collapsed mine and reach the trapped Atrox miners. But it's too late: they are all dead. Tempers flare when on-site medical personnel claim that the trapped miners would probably be alive if an immediate effort had been made to clear the mine. OT authorities disagree. Shocked and angry workers are escorted from the site at gunpoint, and forced to return to their jobs.

Was the first Clan action. Not the complaints. This is the Clan spirit in its finest hour. Even before they were the Clans. The miners formed together to save living beings that OT called "equipment", and said they were "just Atroxes". They were people, and we knew that. The Clans saved them, before they knew what the Clans were.

[pudds4tw]

The atrox are property of Omni-tek corporation. They have been created specifically for the purpose of working in the mines.
In that regard they are little more than livestock.

While atrox are undoubtedly smarter than most other animals, and indeed some are even capable of complex tasks such as the manipulation of complex nanoprograms (though I would dispute that these atrox are in fact based on the orginal Omni-tek genetic scheduele rather than an altered version) I think classifying them as equal to, for example solituses is going a bit far.

[Fixerben]

Now thats the Omni-Tek I know and love. They are living beings no matter how unintelligent they may be.