The Sentinels -Leaders of the Clans? (long)

[Cemetarygate]

Originally posted by Fixerben
Show me how the Sentinels have helped to bring Democracy to Rubi-Ka in any way. They ostracized themselves from the only Democracy the Clans have been able to form. They called Radiman a traitor for starting the Clans towards Peace and Democracy. The Sentinels want OmniTek and Neutral Genocide, not Peace or Democracy.

Need I remind you that the CoT signed the Tir Accord which made "Omni-Tek the superior governing body of the entirety of Rubi-Ka." By no means did that event put clans any closer towards democracy. In fact, making "Omni-Tek the superior governing body" negates any attempts at clans having an electorial process over the entirety of the planet.

Also, that is the event that lead the Sentinels to turn their backs, and walk away from, the CoT, and when Silverstone called them traitors to the clan cause.

Radiman signed a document which threw away our hopes and dreams at democarcy, and you continue to spew that Silverstone is the bad guy?

[_________Lexusstreak]

They don't read into things like that at all, they just want to complain about the system. If they see a group of people against the sentinels then they are against it, it's quite stupid of them and why their efforts will fail.

[_________Lexusstreak]

Anyway I am tired, really tired..this long argument has drained me so I will take my leave. *yawns and turns off the grid poster* Good luck with whatever arguments you add to this place.

[Cyani]

And, as Emiliy so rightly pointed out. What difference does it make what methods I, or any of my fellow leaders, choose to use...so long as they get the results?

Sigh... the difference is that the meeting with Bagels would have never taken place for not the actions of the few who actually tried to make a difference instead of talking about it amoungst themselves..

I never noted you as being guilty of sitting back only to step up to opportunites created by others, it seems you clasified yourself into that group Braedon..

This is also not about shouting for giving credit where it is due..

This is more of a plea for those moderates to start taking some difinitive action and making changes.. So often I hear how you are not happen with the political climate and the state of turmoil we have to live in..

Should the Sentinels be removed from Tir great... you all can pat yourselves on the back and rejoice in the fact your behind the scenes diplomacy caused it..

Some of you tend to be very defensive and read more into this than is there.. Why is that? All I ask is for most of you to stop pointing fingers ans step up and take action..

If you are content with yourcurrent involvement and think your methods are producing results then by all means continue how you see fit..

I offer some critism mcuh to the same as what Cemetarygate has brought forth and it is amazing the backlash of a few concerns and questions as to what is being done and some substantial proof of certain allegations regarding Silverstones presense in Tir is truly about. None which have been proven except for the obvious fact he is not fond of Neutrals and wishes to keep them from entering Tir.

Moderates have thier place.. by all means.. the CoT where moderate by definition.. only by the actions of those willing to fight and uphold our rights do most moderates even have anything to rally behind.

I just ask so many of you that want change.. do not sit idle and wait for it to come to you.. take a stand and ensure these changes come to bare instead of let others provide these opportunites for you..

Right now many of are Moderate guilds are passive in this sense.. A pro-active stance would accomplish so much more than to allow others to make decisions for you or to provide you with the tools you need to succeed.

[Cyani]

Show me how the Sentinels have helped to bring Democracy to Rubi-Ka in any way. They ostracized themselves from the only Democracy the Clans have been able to form. They called Radiman a traitor for starting the Clans towards Peace and Democracy.

Not alot different than what the CoA did to the CoT and Radiman as I believe..

The Sentinels merely removed the ICC from Tir..
The CoA is often credited for the fall of the CoA but yet I see many people attempt to pin the blame on Silverstone and his Sentinels.

I am by no means pro-Sentinels.. they do whoever protect Tir from Omni moving freely throughout Tir to do as they please. I do not condone their disdain for Neutrals as I am sure the majority of clanners feel the same.

The ICC is far more devious than the Sentinels.. The ICC is the reason for the escalation in the conflict on Rubi-Ka..

Again.. I guess this is a dead topic. We can sit back and see how our future will unfold.. or we can forge our own destiny and makes this a bette place to live...

[Fixerben]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate


Need I remind you that the CoT signed the Tir Accord which made "Omni-Tek the superior governing body of the entirety of Rubi-Ka." By no means did that event put clans any closer towards democracy. In fact, making "Omni-Tek the superior governing body" negates any attempts at clans having an electorial process over the entirety of the planet.

Also, that is the event that lead the Sentinels to turn their backs, and walk away from, the CoT, and when Silverstone called them traitors to the clan cause.

Radiman signed a document which threw away our hopes and dreams at democarcy, and you continue to spew that Silverstone is the bad guy?

Alright Cem, I am going to pull out a quote from the Tir Accord itself. This is not made up. If you want to see the Tir Accord download it for yourself.

Omni-Tek recognizes the Council as the Governing body, and spookesperson for all clans affiliated with ir, and its rights no negotiate, and speak for the Clans. In turn the the Council recognizes Omni-Tek as the superior governing body of Rubi-Ka as documented in the ICC lease of 28708.

The council (which was a democratic/republic form of government) was our governing body, and had jurisdiction over the clans that affiliated themselves with the council, and these geographical locations:

Omni-Tek is the superior governing body of the entirety of Rubi-Ka, but will leave to the council to supervise the areas of Tir, Tir County, Athen, Athen Shire, Aegan, Nothern Artery Valley, The Big One, Mort, Newland, and Western Endless Plains.

If thats not a government of the Clans I dont know what is. The Council had control over those associated with them, those that wanted a Democracy. Thereby establishing the first and only officially recognized (by the ICC and others) Clan government on Rubi-Ka.

OmniTek was already the superior governing body, we just carved ourselves a Niche in their world.

[Laeni]

Sounds to me like Lexusstreak is a Silverstone wannabe. She wants to be a dictator and order people around only she's not quite sure how to go about it. It probably doesn't help that people laugh in her face when she starts spouting how she's one of the chosen ones.

She really should join Omni-Tek though. Her philosophy of might makes right and only the strong should be allowed to think would fit right in.

[UwensBack]

Cyani, if you were only pointing out some criticisms, I'm sorry if I or anyone else read to much into them. I, and I can only speak for myself, only became defensive at the implication that I am an idiot and the implication that I have taken credit for things I have not done. I do not consider myself an idiot, though perhaps that is not for me to judge. I do know, however, that I have never taken credit for something I didn't do anything with.

And Cem, even if the CoT had thrown out democracy, that doesn't give the Sentinels any right to invade Tir and set up a dictatorship. But I'm not going to argue it again. Ben does great and doesn't need my help arguing against the Sentinels.

[Cyani]

I admit the not clever enough to be an Omni spy was sort of a dig at you.. More of a you would be a bad spy for Omni as it is fairly clear how you are devoted to the Clan movement.. In fact possibly you would make a great spy thinking about it ... Well in a fumbling harmless kind of way..

Never did I say you actually claimed credit for others actions.. In fact I did not name anyone in those accusations.. I did ask you personally what you have done to aide in the cause to remove the Sentinels that was substantial and you answered that question directly..

It's just very easy to label Silverstone a Tyrant and Dictator as he is a not very well liked man due to his stance regarding Neutrals..

However.. Silverstone has yet to dictate laws issue commands etc.. to any Clansmen or women.. The only thing he is guilty of is not allowing Neutrals in to Tir.. and though Neutrals by majority are not our enemies this does not hold true in all cases. He is no more a Tyrant or Dictator than Sumokan of EO is.. He simply closed the gates of Tir to all but Clanners... This is his way of protecting Tir and what he has stated all along is his goal..

This debate can continue for days on end.. Silverstone is a hardline Fanatic.. there is no denying that.. labeling him a Dictator may be a bit too far though..

[Bionitrous]

"The ICC is far more devious than the Sentinels.. The ICC is the reason for the escalation in the conflict on Rubi-Ka.. "

Yes, they bumbled and stumbled and their foibles ended up in the unfortunate situation which now makes life on Rubi'ka unenjoyable.

However, please explain how you have come to the conclusion that they are 'devious'. Seems to me they were concerned that one of their member corporations would enact a monopoly on the most valuable resource in the galaxy and stepped in to ensure such would not be the case.

The fact that they allowed ALL citizens of Rubi'Ka free access to Tir would appear at first glance to simply be a first step towards globalizing the planet. With the apparent demise of the Clan's government, Tir was nothing more than just a piece of real estate with no owner and no guard force. I can't see discrediting them for not killing Omni employees for simply travelling through a city that they now apparently had full legal access to.

Crimes by citizens of all political bent were of course to be punished. The ICC had this charge. As it stands now, crimes against Neutrals and Omni employees go unpunished when they are committed by the members of an illegal usurper organization (Sentinels).

The ICC may have fumbled the politics. But, they certainly didn't appear to be following any 'agenda' towards destabilizing the planet.

The onus for the unfortunate situation on our planet must fall squarely on the shoulders of the O-T divisions which couldn't police their own members and Mr. Silverstone himself who has done nothing for the good of the planet since embarking on his bloody ego trip.

[UwensBack]

Originally posted by Cyani
I admit the not clever enough to be an Omni spy was sort of a dig at you.. More of a you would be a bad spy for Omni as it is fairly clear how you are devoted to the Clan movement.. In fact possibly you would make a great spy thinking about it ... Well in a fumbling harmless kind of way..

Fumbling harmless I kinda like that

Never did I say you actually claimed credit for others actions.. In fact I did not name anyone in those accusations.. I did ask you personally what you have done to aide in the cause to remove the Sentinels that was substantial and you answered that question directly..

It's just very easy to label Silverstone a Tyrant and Dictator as he is a not very well liked man due to his stance regarding Neutrals..

However.. Silverstone has yet to dictate laws issue commands etc.. to any Clansmen or women.. The only thing he is guilty of is not allowing Neutrals in to Tir.. and though Neutrals by majority are not our enemies this does not hold true in all cases. He is no more a Tyrant or Dictator than Sumokan of EO is.. He simply closed the gates of Tir to all but Clanners... This is his way of protecting Tir and what he has stated all along is his goal..

Maybe this is a question of whether allowing neutrals into Tir or not is a law issue. I think it is and therefore it would be dictating to me. You don't think it is, so it wouldn't be to you. Like Cem said, I guess this comes down to semantics.

This debate can continue for days on end.. Silverstone is a hardline Fanatic.. there is no denying that.. labeling him a Dictator may be a bit too far though..

Well, I don't know if its going too far, but I definitely agree that this can go on for days as days, as this one seems to have and the last one did.

[Cemetarygate]

Fixerben, more accuratly I should have stated the Tir Accord, not made, but reaffirmed "Omni-Tek the superior governing body of the entirety of Rubi-Ka."

So, Radiman reaffirmed that Omni-Tek would remain the "superior governing body of the entirety of Rubi-Ka" while the clans would "supervise" the areas they occupied. Again, that did nothing for our people wanting a democratic Rubi-Ka.

[connall]

Originally posted by Lexusstreak
You don't know where I have been either little boy. I'd kill you before you took 2 steps towards me. I have fought real wars..I have been in REAL battles. I know more about Omni tek than you do...I'd even let you know something else about me, I was Born Omni tek. As I grew I saw that their system was a little..off..so I joined the clans before I turned 18...so I wasn't an "official" citizen of Omni tek. I know how they work, I have seen the conflict teeter and totter before you probably even arrived in the backyards of this planet. I have accomplished more than you know, the difference here is I don't sit around with a spot light over my head saying hey I did this I did this, give me credit for it.

Yes I have said you don't deserve free will, that is not the same as freedom. Here it means you are free to go about your daily business, as long as you don't do something to F*** with the order of things like you have been doing.

I chose this quote because it seems indicative of your attitude, Lexus. You want a fight? Feel free to bring it on. I for one would like to take you wild accusations, your insults, you banal whitterings and ram them down your throat. You want a fight? Sure. I'll take you on. And after I've finished plopping you back to reclaim, I'll do a little dance.

You make me sick.

Ailish.

[Fixerben]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate
Fixerben, more accuratly I should have stated the Tir Accord, not made, but reaffirmed "Omni-Tek the superior governing body of the entirety of Rubi-Ka."

So, Radiman reaffirmed that Omni-Tek would remain the "superior governing body of the entirety of Rubi-Ka" while the clans would "supervise" the areas they occupied. Again, that did nothing for our people wanting a democratic Rubi-Ka.

Yes it did, we were in control of a portion of the planet. That is a HUGE step compared to what anyone else has done. Silverstone only holds dominion on one city, and that is only because he uses guns to force his presence. Radiman gained most of Northern Rubi-Ka without having to shoot anyone.

[UwensBack]

Originally posted by Fixerben

is only because he uses guns to force his presence.

Which is another mark of a dictator, in case you haven't noticed Cem.

[Cemetarygate]

Fixerben, Radiman didn't gain land in the north. The land was under clan control before Radiman took his position in the Council of Truth, and even before Radiman was born. How you can say Radiman gave clans control of something they already had control over is beyond me. Radiman's primary accomplishment was putting an end to the third civil war; putting a stop to the fighting in the north. Based on that fact, we can say Radiman gave the clans peace.

Which, quite honestly, I think is all Radiman cared about. I don't think he cared about democracy over the entirety of Rubi-Ka, otherwise he never would have reaffirmed Omni-Tek as "the superior governing body of the entirety of Rubi-Ka." All Radiman wanted for the clans was a safe haven for the places they already called home. Which, all credit to Radiman, is exactly what he accomplished.

The Tir Accord also reaffirmed Omni-Tek would hold their monopoly on notum. Silverstone saw that Radiman, not only turned his back on democracy in favor of peace, but turned his back on our notum rights as well. Silverstone left the Council of Truth, citing they were traitors to the clan cause.

That's correct, clans are also fighting for notum rights in case you forgot. Silverstone's in Tir, standing guard and offering assisstance in notum mining. Silverstone has not told you to mine, he's not even asked you to mine. He's simply offered it to those that wish to persue their rights to mine. That does not make him a dictator.

Silverstone is protecting the clan capital city from outsiders. The clan capital city! Tir is symbolic for what our people stand for and hold to be true. The ICC doesn't understand what our city means to us, thus certainly doesn't deserve to stand guard.

And you and Uwen dare call him a dictator because he guards our city with guns? Do you really expect him to stand there, "Oh, pretty please, Mr. Omni, can you leave our capital city?" Standing guard with a gun doesn't make him a dictator. Standing guard with a gun means Mr. Omni is leaving alot sooner than later.

Fact, he's not a dictator. This has been proven time and time again. Your continued slandering only weakens our people and makes me want to pick up a weapon and stand guard next to Silverstone. If you want to fight for our people, then stop the name calling and fight for our people.

[_________Lexusstreak]

*reads over cemetary's words and sheds a single tear*

God bless these great people the sentinels.

[Aimes]

Originally posted by Lexusstreak
*reads over cemetary's words and sheds a single tear*

God bless these great people the sentinels.

...How unfortunate it is, however, that they would choose to consort with those who don't share their value of order. Democracy is a flawed an inefficient system, The Sentinels see this yet why do they continue to rebel against Omni-Tek, the very ones that see that same natural need for people to be given direction?

[_________Lexusstreak]

Thing here is shuldrich that the sentinels want order...under the sentinels way and terms, not Omni Tek's.

[UwensBack]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate

And you and Uwen dare call him a dictator because he guards our city with guns? Do you really expect him to stand there, "Oh, pretty please, Mr. Omni, can you leave our capital city?" Standing guard with a gun doesn't make him a dictator. Standing guard with a gun means Mr. Omni is leaving alot sooner than later.

Fact, he's not a dictator. This has been proven time and time again. Your continued slandering only weakens our people and makes me want to pick up a weapon and stand guard next to Silverstone. If you want to fight for our people, then stop the name calling and fight for our people.

No, he can guard the city all he wants. If an Omni takes one step into Tir, I fully expect them to be blown away. Thats fine with me. You still don't understand that that is not my problem with him. I don't mind if he uses excessive force. The only thing I want is for the majority of Tir to want him there. He doesn't have to, nor would I ask him to ask an Omni to leave. They shouldn't be there in the first place. All I want is for the leader of Tir to be elected. If Silverstone gets elected, thats what the majority wants. If thats what the majority wants, thats what they get.

But until then, fact is, he is a dictator. He dictating himself and his thugs on the city. He dictated the law that no neutrals can enter Tir on penalty of death. That is dictating. That is a dictator. You just can't or don't want to see that. I'm not slandering, I'm calling him what he is. I'll fight for our people and I will fight for our cause, which is democracy. You want to fight for the antithesis to our cause, you join the Sentinels. No one elected him, no one asked him to come to Tir, and most people don't want him there. ANd how can you continue denying he is a dictator when LExus has all but said the same thing? She talks about how Silverstone should and will strip people of their free will. She talks about how he rules with an iron fist and how "good" that is for the clans. The fact is, you just don't want to see the obvious and if you don't want to see it, there is nothing I or anyone can do to help you.

Ah damn, I've let myself slip again. Have to remember, no more proving the bloody freaking obvious.