The Sentinels -Leaders of the Clans? (long)

**______________Nelida** · Mar 20th, 2003, 01:16:01

While what you say is, strictly speaking, correct you must not deny that the Sentinels presense in Tir AND their attitude toward Neutrals in general has drastically escalated tensions and outright fighting where it did NOT exist before. I might also add that it promoted fighting between the moderate Clans and the Sentinels also due to their hijaking of an entire city.

And Silverstone keeps both out of Tir by his own decision independent of what the rest of the Clans might have wanted...forcing his ill will toward the neutrals on the rest of us. I fail to see how this makes him anything other than a thug....

Originally posted by Cemetarygate
Fixerben, personally I wouldn't shoot a neutral unless fired upon first. But, what makes neutral persons different than Omni? Neither support our cause, and one might be more friend than foe. However, this is not about friendship, but politics. As stated, neither support our cause so Silverstone keeps both out of Tir.

Here's a perfect example of you incorrectly stating facts.

More accuractly, Silverstone obtained, I'm not denying illegally, mining technology to assist clans in building and running their own mining facilities. At no point did Silverstone state, or suggest, that clans should remove neutral and/or Omni facilities by all out war. Actions taken against neutral and/or Omni facilities have been, and are being done so, by the choice of individuals and/or organizations. So, blame those individuals and/org organizations for being the "biggest contributors" to the Notum Wars that chose to fight.

Fighting, and other conflicts, continued despite the cease fire, which played in part to the cease fire being removed.

The Sentinels do not promote, or cause, people to fight. We know this because people fought before the Sentinels were around. When the Sentinels sat quietly in Mort people fought. Now that the Sentinels stand in Tir people fight. Nice of you to try and pin this on the Sentinels, but as you can cleary see, and as I've stated, people have, and will, fight regardless.

**______________Emiliy** · Mar 20th, 2003, 01:20:09

Originally posted by Nelida
And Silverstone keeps both out of Tir by his own decision independent of what the rest of the Clans might have wanted...forcing his ill will toward the neutrals on the rest of us. I fail to see how this makes him anything other than a thug....

And that's the bottom line. No one gave the clans a choice, and no one listened when we all decried it. The clans are about democracy, freedom and choice. Silverstone made a dictatorial decision.

**Fixerben** · Mar 20th, 2003, 01:58:15

Cem let me research my next post before I make some more things up.

**Cemetarygate** · Mar 20th, 2003, 09:02:23

Nelida, I agree the Sentinels have caused more tension for clan and neutral relations. Also, everyone, including myself, know the moderate clans oppose the Sentinels being in Tir.

Personally, I don't care who stands guard in Tir, so long as they have the ability to keep Omni-Tek from walking all over us. The Council of Truth did a good job. The Sentinels are doing as good a job, if not better as they seem to have more well trained guards compared to what guards the CoT had.

This does not mean I'm defending, or condoning, the Sentinels actions for keeping neutrals out of Tir. However, I feel that an indivdual, and/or groups, should not be labeled as something they are not. Thus, my speaking on behave of the Sentinels.

Lastly, I'm not certain what you mean by "fighting where it did not exist before." If you mean clans being attacked in Newland City, then yes, there is addition fighting that had not existed in that city before, that is a direct result from the Sentinels being in Tir. Everywhere else I would blame Omni-Tek.

Omni-Tek Engineering's inability to produce notum mining towers that can sustain a 100% suppression environment at all times has resulted in fighting where it did not exist before.

Emily, militant groups do not wait for an electorial process. They see a threat and react. The Sentinels saw Omni-Tek slowly moving into our territory, classified the situation as a potential threat and reacted. Threat neturalized. Done and over, no point in crying over spilled milk.

Now, if the moderate clans have a better solution to keep the threat at bay, then so be it. Make it so.

(( Fixerben, I seriously hope you're not taking this personal. I'm just a stickler for detail... except my spelling.

))

**pudds4tw** · Mar 20th, 2003, 09:27:53

Cemetarygate, exactly how was Omni-tek "slowly moving into your territory"?

As far as I know, and do correct me if I'm wrong, There was a sizeable ICC force deployed to Tir. In no way can you claim that Tir was under threat from being taken by Omni-tek.

If you are referring to the fact that the ICC troops let Omni-tek personell walk the streets of Tir. Then yes, I can see how many clanners surely disliked this, but you have to accept that the Council of Truth had disbanded and there was no elected clan leadership ready to take over, therefore from the Clans point of view I think you should have welcomed such a neutral proetection force considering that Omni-tek could otherwise have decided to send in its own peacekeeping forces to prevent rioting and power struggles.

The Sentinel invasion was uncalled for.

**Fixerben** · Mar 20th, 2003, 19:18:07

Originally posted by Cemetarygate
(( Fixerben, I seriously hope you're not taking this personal. I'm just a stickler for detail... except my spelling. ))

((Its all RP to me

))

Still researching, I will respond soon.

**UwensBack** · Mar 20th, 2003, 19:43:40

Originally posted by Gestava

The Sentinel invasion was uncalled for.

And that is the "gospel truth" as it were.

**______________Emiliy** · Mar 20th, 2003, 20:06:03

Originally posted by Cemetarygate
Emily, militant groups do not wait for an electorial process. They see a threat and react. The Sentinels saw Omni-Tek slowly moving into our territory, classified the situation as a potential threat and reacted. Threat neturalized. Done and over, no point in crying over spilled milk.

Now, if the moderate clans have a better solution to keep the threat at bay, then so be it. Make it so.

Exactly. Why do you not see the problem underlying that? The definition of what is and is not a "threat" lies in the eye of the beholder; what is a threat to a paranoid militant like Silverstone may not necessarily be a threat to the rank and file citizen of Tir, or Athen or Bliss. That is why military actions are planned, deliberated, debated and revised - to provide enough dissent and as many voices as possible to maximize the ideas available, so that nothing is overlooked.

Silverstone obviously miscalculated the impact of his actions, because, as you have agreed herein, relations between clans and neutrals have degraded severely, to the point that Elite Operations took their own determination of "threat" and hired the mercenaries for NLC. Now, clan members cannot enter NLC; the neutrals received patronage support from Omni-Tek and Philip Ross directly.

To clarify another point, the Sentinels did not "cause" and do not continue to cause this war. Certainly, they supply the technology and machinery. However, CEmetarygate is correct in his statements that it is the joint and several decision of a clan or clans to wage war on a neutral or Omni-Tek mining facility. These actions are undertaken regardless of whether or not that clan owns a mining installation of its own, as nothing precludes an unaffiliated clan citizen from randomly attacking a mining facility in any part of the planet.

Simon Silverstone is not holding the hands of those clans that make war, leading them into battle. Nor are the towers he manufactures involved in any way in any offensive capacity. When a clan marches to war, I have yet to see a control tower and guardian conductor march behind it.

**UwensBack** · Mar 20th, 2003, 20:20:57

Originally posted by Emiliy

When a clan marches to war, I have yet to see a control tower and guardian conductor march behind it.

Well, there was one time, a couple weeks ago, after I shot a couple stims and got really drunk, I could've sworn I saw our GTC tower get up and go to the Temple of Three Winds for a drink. Or something like that....

...

...

What?

**______________Emiliy** · Mar 20th, 2003, 22:14:53

Ya we've gotta stop letting DA send "representatives" to The Cup...I just don't think your willpower in your current state can withstand it...

**UwensBack** · Mar 20th, 2003, 22:32:29

Originally posted by Emiliy
Ya we've gotta stop letting DA send "representatives" to The Cup...I just don't think your willpower in your current state can withstand it...

But they're so much fun!

**Cemetarygate** · Mar 21st, 2003, 01:20:05

Gestava, we should have welcomed a neutral protection force? How very convenient for Omni-Tek as their minions ran rampant throughout the city spewing Omni-Tek propaganda. This is one such threat the Sentinels neutralized.

More importantly, Tir is our capital city that was not under clan control. Clans need not be protected by Omni-Tek and certainly not the ICC. Sentinels took back what belongs to clan, and offered clan protection inside a clan city.

Uwen, I'm beginning to wonder who you really work for. The ICC or Omni-Tek?

Emily, I do not consider myself a "paranoid militant" but I did consider the Omni employees running around in Tir shouting, "join Omni-Tek before it's too late," and, "join Omni-Tek or else," to be threats and/or threatening. (I generally ignore/d, "clanner scum," because that phrase is used so often that, to me, it has no meaning anymore). Perhaps those were meant as psychological warfare, but threats nonetheless.

The Sentinels were wise to take up guard duty from this clear and present danger. We can only hope they have the support needed to protect us in our time of need while we move forward with a democratic government and the rest of our goals.

(( lol, btw. That last statement was hilarious. ))

**______________Emiliy** · Mar 21st, 2003, 01:58:51

I never meant to imply that you were a "paranoid militant", Cem - that was directed at Mr. Silverstone and the members of the Sentinels.

But I must say I do agree with your call on the Omnis in Tir. Now it becomes a question of two evils: employees spewing hate and propaganda in our capitol city, or a militant group slaughtering the innocent?

Propaganda can always be countered, and given the calibre of the current *ahem* employee strata, I think all too easily. ((cheap shot, and I loved it

)) However, can we at least agree that the slaughter of neutrals is wrong? I think removing the ICC from Tir was a wonderful thing. But, the point the more moderate among us are making is that it was done without consulting us, without any sort of the processes endemic of democracy.

**UwensBack** · Mar 21st, 2003, 02:01:47

I work for the owner of The Cup. That's all. I'm getting sick and tired of these idiotic statements implying I'm some kind of spy when no one has one single shred of evidence or proof. You know why no one does? Because it doesn't exist. I'm not a damned spy. This kind of witch hunt divisionalist bulls*** will ruin the clans.

Yeah, the Sentinels were smart for taking Tir because they wanted a city to rule. Silverstone had a bunch of thugs he could push around, but no city to be a dictator in. Ok, so I can't read minds and I don't know for sure if that was his intention, but if it wasn't, it was a nice little hidden present he found. Must be fun being the tin pot ruler of a city that doesn't want you. They're not guarding us, they're invading us. This isn't a "time of need". We're not being threatened by anything major. OmniTek were in a stalemate in regards to tower holding, although we have got the upper hand now. The basic lines of clan and OmniTek haven't changed. There is no large scale war going on. How exactly is this a time of need? And you say Ben lies in his statements. Or maybe you're not lying, maybe you've just been brainwashed by Silverstone? No, no, I don't want to denigrate into name calling. Perhaps the spy implication got me angry.

**______________Emiliy** · Mar 21st, 2003, 03:44:48

I am more than happy to report that, tonight (March 20), it was proved that the strength of a unity of voices has disproved your entire conjecture, Gestava. Kiss the Sentinels while you can; their time draws nigh.

**Cyani** · Mar 21st, 2003, 03:45:34

the point the more moderate among us are making is that it was done without consulting us, without any sort of the processes endemic of democracy.

When have the moderates ever done anything but complain? Take action and stop being backseat drivers.

I'm getting sick and tired of these idiotic statements implying I'm some kind of spy when no one has one single shred of evidence or proof.

I'm getting sick and tired of this too.. You all are giving the spy community a black eye with your allegations that Uwen could possibly be so clever as to be a spy..

I have to side with Cemetary..

Basically all the Sentinels have done is protect Tir from those who do not support the Clans and keep Omni out of our streets. Sure, I agree the Sentinels are overzealous and fanatical.. but I would much rather have them their than the ICC..

It is very unfortunate that the Sentinels have no tolerance for Neutrals.. Until the Sentinels can be replaced by a suitable protector or governing body I have no problem with their stay.
The Sentinels are only there until such is provided as stated by Silverstone.

So please all of you moderate clans step up and show your worth instead of crying someone do it for you.

**______________Emiliy** · Mar 21st, 2003, 03:47:52

Perhaps you should speak with your wife before you take such an accusatory tone with me, Cyani.

**UwensBack** · Mar 21st, 2003, 04:00:18

Hehe, or maybe you should learn the facts of what you're talking about before assuming moderates are doing nothing. For your information, we've tried many things. Killing them doesn't work so we're trying something else. For your information, we've already started a plan to remove the Sentinels and the inactivity is not on our part. The people we've made the arrangements with have merely been taking their time for reasons unknown to me. I don't know what brought on this insult, but, along with learning about what you're talking about, you might want to get to know me before you decide to pass judgement on my intellectual capacities.

Cyani, if I've done something to personal to you that brought this on, I apologise and it was unintentional.

**_________Lexusstreak** · Mar 21st, 2003, 07:14:25

All of you seem to miss the fact that your opinion doesn't mean ANYTHING. You are nothing more than pawns in the grand scheme of things. A bunch of ungrateful stupid little animals who do nothing but whine all day..you whine because some Omni Citizen isn't allowed to pollute our city of Tir or some filthy mange infested Neutral either. You have no reason to oppose the sentinels who have done nothing but tirelessly patrol and keep our city safe. ALL of you are hypocrits..you call them murderers and barbarians..anyone here who has NOT EVER taken the life of their enemy raise your hand...if you do raise it I will slap you until you can't stand up because you are a liar of the worst kind. Nelida you are one to call someone a criminal when criminal activity is your whole life..she who smuggles illegal goods to the clans. Ben, don't you ever say a word either about brutality, you who killed innocent Sentinel guards who had no aggression towards you whatsoever...ALL of you are hypocrits.

Animals, the whole lot of you, you abuse the free will that all peoples are given, the rights that our clan foreparents fought and died for. You use this free will to complain..and you don't even know what you are complaining against. You don't deserve free will, and it will be stripped away soon because it is a gift you can not comprehend. Silverstone is your leader...it matters not if he hasn't said it, because he is..respect him or die, it's as simple as that. If he doesn't correct you for your insolence then by heaven I will..I have more than enough ammunition to discipline all of you. This is OUR clan, it belongs to the sentinels..you either stand with us or you are nothing more than omni tek traitors. If the latter is true, you will die, quickly and promptly. It's as simple as that. You all make me sick...you don't know what you want, you are like a bunch of wayward children. If this is what the clans have truly been lowered to, it is a sad day indeed. No matter though, you will be forced one way or the other to obey...you abuse your freedoms, then they will be stripped away....bunch of cattle... *loads her Hellspinner and mumbles something about ingrates*

**UwensBack** · Mar 21st, 2003, 07:24:04

Originally posted by Lexusstreak
All of you seem to miss the fact that your opinion doesn't mean ANYTHING. You are nothing more than pawns in the grand scheme of things. A bunch of ungrateful stupid little animals who do nothing but whine all day..you whine because some Omni Citizen isn't allowed to pollute our city of Tir or some filthy mange infested Neutral either. You have no reason to oppose the sentinels who have done nothing but tirelessly patrol and keep our city safe. ALL of you are hypocrits..you call them murderers and barbarians..anyone here who has NOT EVER taken the life of their enemy raise your hand...if you do raise it I will slap you until you can't stand up because you are a liar of the worst kind. Nelida you are one to call someone a criminal when criminal activity is your whole life..she who smuggles illegal goods to the clans. Ben, don't you ever say a word either about brutality, you who killed innocent Sentinel guards who had no aggression towards you whatsoever...ALL of you are hypocrits.

Animals, the whole lot of you, you abuse the free will that all peoples are given, the rights that our clan foreparents fought and died for. You use this free will to complain..and you don't even know what you are complaining against. You don't deserve free will, and it will be stripped away soon because it is a gift you can not comprehend. Silverstone is your leader...it matters not if he hasn't said it, because he is..respect him or die, it's as simple as that. If he doesn't correct you for your insolence then by heaven I will..I have more than enough ammunition to discipline all of you. This is OUR clan, it belongs to the sentinels..you either stand with us or you are nothing more than omni tek traitors. If the latter is true, you will die, quickly and promptly. It's as simple as that. You all make me sick...you don't know what you want, you are like a bunch of wayward children. If this is what the clans have truly been lowered to, it is a sad day indeed. No matter though, you will be forced one way or the other to obey...you abuse your freedoms, then they will be stripped away....bunch of cattle... *loads her Hellspinner and mumbles something about ingrates*

Would you rather have moderates or this? Honestly.

Thats what I thought.

Thread: The Sentinels -Leaders of the Clans? (long)

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