Small vs. Large guilds

[Sohjiro]

[ooc]
I have recently been appointed leader of my guild, and left with the dilemma of which direction to take it. Currently we're a small guild. Mostly a small collective of friends that have fun with eachother. We don't have Roleplaying events, we don't actively PVP, and we don't have clearly defined responsibilities and tasks. We do participate in events when we can, and help each other level and get new gear as much as possible. We enjoy eachothers company above all else.

I've toyed with the option of having another larger guild allow us to join them or the idea of going on a recruiting spree. I've bounced the idea around with some of the members, and most of them either "don't care" or "will follow me in whatever decision I make". I've decided to keep it small for the time being. Since this is the first MMORPG guild I've had to lead I've decided to ask everyone on the forums for their ideas.

So my question is...
What do you prefer? What are you experiences? If you run your own guild, how do you run it? If you could run your own guild, how would you run it?
Large guilds
Pros: Buffs for free. Always find a hunting group. Guild tax system helps out a lot.
Cons: No one knows each other. Guild chat is crazy. Micromanagement is a must. Typically PVP or Leveling oriented.

Small guilds
Pros: Everyone knows each other. Tighter friendships. Easier to manage. Less chance of recruiting an idiot or an ass
Cons: You have to buy buffs sometimes. When someone leaves, it hurts a lot more.

[dropcid]

Being a high-up in the largest guild in the game, I'd say keep your guild as small as possible. I enjoyed the guild a lot more when it was small. Succesfully running a large guild takes a hell of a lot of work, and you end up with a lot of members who you would never have allowed in your guild in the first place.
At the very least, limit the number of people who can recruit to a small core group- things get out of hand quickly once you have a lot of recruiters.

-D

[Windowlicker]

A large guild has many bonus's .. I myself prefer to keep it large.

Large Guild:

Pros:
- Less problems meeting new people within your own org
- Grouping is easyer (More people are on!)
- Events run much better (People show up!)
- Other guilds know who you are, you get invited along more often
- Much more support from the guild in everyday tasks
- If 50 people leave, it's really no big deal
- Items are easy to find
- Money is easyer to come by
- Tradeskills are easly taken care of
- Buffs are accessable, and generally free


Cons:
- You will rapidly develop a "l33t d00d" problem
- Removing the "l33t d00ds" is a problem (But can be done )
- The existing structure of the guild system won't support a large org, you have to physically write a structure for it to work.
- Things can easly get out of hand
- Guild chat has to be moderated at all times
- Issues must be filtered through the existing rank system, or the leader will go crazy
- Other guilds know who you are, and you get invited along more often
- Your a target in MORE than a few ways
- Removing dead accounts (Figured THAT one out!!, Thanks Det/Heaven)
- Events and meetings can get crazy, you have to have a good team of higher ranks to control things so the information can be relayed to the lower ranks.
- Information is harder to get across to everyone
- No /anon or /invisible command, the second you come online they know your there
- You'll have "drama queen's" that basicly leave the guild just to see everyone freak out, then try to rejoin the next day. I've personally seen over 10 people fit this description. Now we just remove them permenently.



Ooooh god

I could keep going, but you get the idea!


Hope it helps

[____________Arterous]

I would say I run a Mid level guild. about 100 characters in my guild. We have recently gone through a recruiting blitz (maybe 10 people in the last week have joined).
At higher levels it would be nice to have a good bunch of people to group with IMHO. Right now I can put together 1-2 teams at every level for the most part. We are looking to add people, and its still manageable. But I would think having a ton of people (say 300+) would become a big chore. I enjoy my play time, and would rather not have to babysit

[dropcid]

oh crap ... the president...

Did I mention I love my guild?

Like window said, it's important to develop a structure if your guild is going to be large. And, the drama queens and leets out there get annoying, and everytime you kick one (leets) or won't let one back in (drama queen) 20 people will demand an explaination, then /org quit themselves too. Make your policies crystal clear up front, don't allow exceptions, and don't be afraid to bring the hammer of justice down swiftly.



Guild chat moderated? What guild are you talking about? Have you kicked me yet? :P

-D

[Sohjiro]

Okay a few questions Windowlicker.

How many hours a week do you spend playing admin for your guild?

Do you find yourself hiding from your guild just to enjoy the game on one of your alternate characters?

Whats the best and worst experience you've had running such a large guild?

[UwensBack]

I was the general of relatively large guild, then the president, then we screwed up and disbanded to reform with the best people (we had some problems with too many l33t0rz and disrespectful wankers ). Since we reformed we have a poor excuse for a guild and I wish we had kept the old guild. Anyway, to the point, I would like to agree with Windowlicker and answer some of Sohjiro's questions.
>How many hours a week do you spend playing admin for your guild?
Too many. I (and my three other friends and founders) spent at least 10 hours a week organising and executing RP events, as well as getting to know our guildees and making a bank (before they out it the nice one we have now, before I had to log on a person and run to where our meeting was, sometimes getting nothing and being there for show ). Unfortunately, this leaves little time for levelling (I was lvl 20 for a week or two!) and takes an enormus drain on your funds (even nice and twinked like we were ). However, this may be due to how we ran our guild. we made it a point to put RP before levelling and giving to our members in ways like loans, donations, and large "mission" (our RP activities) rewards, We also bought guild uniforms and ngave a small bit of cash to every new member. When we stopped and tried to level (as everyone else had surpassed us by a large amount) our guildees were annoyed at our lack of RP activities.

>Do you find yourself hiding from your guild just to enjoy the game on one of your alternate characters?
Unfortunately, yes! All the time! While this is our fault for "spoiling" our guild with RP and interaction, it is also some of our more disrespectful (ex)member's fault. Sadly, to keep our sanity ( what little of it was left ) this was necessary.

>Whats the best and worst experience you've had running such a large guild?
The best- One of our RP events that we managed to get everyone into that took about 4 hours and everyone (except us founders) went home dumb, fat, rich and happy .
The worst- Either reforming the guild or having to kick members that even got on my amiable British nerves. Yeah I know, suprising isn't it! See, even now I regret having to do it, even though I may have hated the bloke(s)!
Now this doesnt happen much anymore with our skeletal guild that we have now, however, I miss the responsibility and the RP events. I miss the large guild and I (obviously) prefer it. However.... my wife wasn't too thrilled with it ;p

Just my thoughts,
Uwen

[____________Founding]

Probably the biggest fundemental problems you will experience is level differential. By that I mean the mix of low, mid and high level players.

Problems occur when you have too many PLAYERS with only low and even mid level characters and too few PLAYERS with a high level players, basically, it can cause burn out with the high levels.

I was once in a large guild (Division 9) and even for a time headed it, but eventually the burden on our higher level players became too much and on mass many of them quit.

The other thing to consider is the large the guild the more it takes out of its leader, particulally if its a RP guild.

And to answer somebody else question, yes you do find yourself hiding from your own guild at times. But its not only just your own guild you need to hide from, often non guild people will contact you for all many of reasons, from your members killing leets, to your members killing them in PvP to lodge complaints over other guilds [I once had a clanner complain to me about an Omni IN ANOTHER GUILD killing them and wanting me to get an apologue for them from the OTHER guild leader]. The only way to avoid that and actually play at times is the use of a non-leader alt.

The problem with that is due to the way Funcom stage events you'll need access to the leaders chat.

Recently I'm beginning to subscribe to the idea of mid sized, similar leveled guilds being the way to go. Something in the order of 30-50 PLAYERS (as opposed to characters).

Anything under 20 PLAYERS is a problem due to enough people being on at any one time.

Large guilds can also work, but again I think its down to self-sufficentcy and level differental.

[Windowlicker]

Originally posted by Sohjiro
Okay a few questions Windowlicker.

How many hours a week do you spend playing admin for your guild?

Do you find yourself hiding from your guild just to enjoy the game on one of your alternate characters?

Whats the best and worst experience you've had running such a large guild?

I couldn't tell you how long I spend working on guild stuff, I do know several of our Generals easly match my time spent.

If I need to hide, or go "stealth mode" ... I usually go /afk. It lets me level, or play my main in peace .. and usually the members are really nice, and leave me be lol

It's hard to say what was the single best experience with First Order, I have a really good time anytime I'm on. We've had so many events, anything that runs well usually ranks up there.

As Dropcid said though, probably the single worst part of running a large guild is the Dramaqueen's.

Dramaqueen's being people that really don't want to be in your guild to begin with, they do anything they can to contradict you ... to make your job hard.

This almost always involves leaving, they usually /org leave right during prime time hours, then jump offline immediatly after. They leave for pretty well no reason most of the time, and it's pretty obvious they do it just for attention.

I won't name any names, but there are quite a few people that will use and abuse a guild in a few ways.

1. Make use of a middle of the road guild long enough just to level their characters up to "Uber guild" level .. just so they can leave and join the trendy-guild-of-the-week.

2. Hop, from guild to guild ...... some people will NEVER concentrate on one org, so they more or less will jump in immediatly looking for money and gear. These people just leech what they can, and /org leave once people become wise

3. Gloryhogs, will join ANY guild that's the flavor of the week. The second your org hits the press in any way, you'll have a hundred join, then a hundred leave.



Those people aside, it's really worth it in the long run. From going on little "Bandito" pvp sessions, to full fledge battles .. even simple roleplaying events are really entertaining.


As a leader I think one of the best things you can do for your higher ranks or guild, is to involve them with guild business as much as possible.

That can involve sending them to meetings to represent the guild(in your place), and definatly involves a constant flow of information from you to the guild.

People already think there's some kind of hidden agenda, get ready to combat that.


(Sorry for everything being choppylike, I just woke up ... in a rush to get ready for work lol)

[Arinia]

Large guild:

Set up a rank system, chain of command. If you are a RP guild, this comes naturally.

Have leadership which is not afraid to use /org demote and/or /org kick to get rid of troublemakers/whiners/complainers/beggars.

Screen new members carefully.

Put down hard and fast rules. Don't let things get out of hand.

Discipline is key.

Granted, I've never run a guild. But.... I can see results easily enough.

[Windowlicker]

Originally posted by Kaerem
Large guild:

Have leadership which is not afraid to use /org demote and/or /org kick to get rid of troublemakers/whiners/complainers/beggars.

Screen new members carefully.

Put down hard and fast rules. Don't let things get out of hand.

Discipline is key.

- You have to really be careful with Discipline, the number 1 thing to avoid when leading any size of guild, is turning into a power-tripper... or even looking like one.

- You must not punish anyone that's broken a rule that you do not have down on paper. If you have a no whiners rule, make sure it's posted somewhere for all to see before you kick anyone for it.

- Screening new members is definatly a must, but you don't want to impede the flow of new talent into your org. Ourselves we recently started doing this by placing a requirement for admission. Each new recruit to First Order requires two sponsors from within First Order. The sponsors must be above a certain rank, or the recruit will not be admitted.

- Put down hard and fast rules, but make sure they are rules that everyone has agreed on. For me to institute a new rule for example, it has to be passed by our Generals at the bare minimum.


Everyone runs each org completely diffrently, myself I personally see the leadership role as somewhat of a mediator. I don't make the bulk of the choices as to where the guild is directed, rather I allow the majority within the guild to make the call's, and my job is to make each new aspect implemented to the best of our ability.

[UwensBack]

Well seeing as you can read Window's post below, there is no need for me to quote it
I agree with everything he says. Especially one.
The part about having every rule down on paper. I used to think you can't anticipate everything, thus if something happens you havent specified as something no one is allowed to do, then the offender can wave that in your face. What I used to do is set out some basic guidelines (i.e. dont be rude, dont steal from guild bank, et cetera ad naseum) and if that person does something out of line, I gave them a warning. I have a very hard time with a particular individual which I gave many chances to correct the behaviour. If I had set the rules in stone, I could have had a better stance (and could have kicked him faster) for kicking him and retaining my sanity.
Here's an example of the horrors of having your rules not laid out in front of all to see (based on a real experiance).
Guildmember joins. I (General or president, depending on the day hehe) tell him the basic guidelines of our guild. Guildmember (GM) says that he understands. GM comes to myself and other leaders on the typical, mini-event/mission we do for new members. I am an adventurer. GM thinks it is funny that I happen to like leet form. GM tells me this and is slightly disrespectful. I shrug it off. The next day GM refuses to do as I tell him, saying he will not take orders from a leet. I tell him it was funny before but he needs to listen now. GM says more disrespectful things. I /org demote him. GM says he was just kidding and how big of a jerk I am. GM logs when he is refused his promotion to regular status. The next day, GM continues his disrespect, I give him warning after warning. GM tells the leaders to shut up idiots as he is busy. He is ejected and complains. (ex)GM is /ignored.
So the biggest problem (I think) is the main category: Discipline then the sub category: respect.

My thoughts,
Uwen

[Andross]

Its quite easy tho to get rid of any wankers:

Kick them.

You will notice that people who are wankers are not wanted by the majority of guildmembers anyway and i recently made this experience with Shock14 who was a general pain in the ass for a while and who was kicked after i warned him twice at a guildmeeting. The members sighed with relief because they wanted to see him gone but didnt say a word about it.
In general i can say that having a department which is responsible for the Recruitment & Training of new members with max. 10 people is a good way to control new recruits and to screen them properly. If you have very skilled members like I happen to have in the key positions, a lot of the day-to-day work will be taken from you and members will deal with problems for you. The part about the physical structure made up by yourself is very true. My guild will get a new structure during march because we are above 50 members now and it is hard to control more than that with a simple structure. In Omni-Pol we have General(s) who lead their department like a guildleader. They assign Squad Commanders to help them with stuff. Besides that, only Unit Commanders are allowed to recruit people and those are all in the Recruitment & Training department. Promotions happen sometimes, but it is very difficult to get above Unit Member quickly. Thus promotions - which are opnly done at bi-weekly guildmeetings - are a special guildhappening which is an event for people in itself. We are quite involved with politics and RPing, thus my members almost always have something to do. They still group with each other, do missions, just founded a Yalmaha fund to get every full member a Yalmaha. I am quite pleased with the way my guild goes but the max. limit i set for the guild myself is 150 members. More than this and it gets too hard to manage and sometimes i have to deal with 10 things at once already because of out-of-guild stuff and inter-guild stuff. Just dont be afraid of telling your members what you think, make it clear that *you* are the leader and that you dont allow bad behaviour of any kind. In a military style guild like Omni-Pol it is quite easy to keep control of the members with the help of Generals and Squad Commanders and it is not always neccessary to justify what you do, because in a military thats not done anyway.

[_____________Oddible]

OK, I just joined a guild and want to avoid the aformentioned baddie tag. So I get the Dramaqueen, but what the he.. is a l33t0rz / l33t d00d?

[Detonate]

Originally posted by Meister
Its quite easy tho to get rid of any wankers:

Kick them.

That's all of your post I read, because no paragraphs is even worse than Windowlicker's "every sentence is a new paragraph" style.

But I'll tell you what, that /kick doesn't work.

Everytime someone is /kick'd from our guild, several, and I do mean sevaral others will /org leave and follow. You may think that's cool, but I personally don't like seeing anyone leave or guild.

I run the website for First Order, and although it's a full time job in itself, it has made tons of people happy. Everything is automated and interactive. It gives people a place to go, share, and feel a part of something.

Currently the guild website, and it's 600 members are the one and only thing that keeps me in this game. The game itself has drove me to insanity...

Once Star Wars Galaxies hit's the shelf, it's going to be hard justifying playing this game any longer...

[__________metamunnin]

In my experiance with A.O, Keeping guild members in a guild where there is not real catch other then friendship really doesnt bode well for too long. So far ive been in 2 guilds where i have held a leadership spot. The first guild went Under cuz it was best left as a small guild and we wanted it large, We set up one of the best and most well organized guilds on RK, Spent hours of Brainstorming for rules and how to properly Organize the guild. We then implemented the rules and learned that most 90% of the folks in game, didnt want a heavily organized guild, Thus leaving you with the option of Anarchy and no rules, This of course for a really really large guild is nearly impossible to run and still be able to have a good grasp of who is and is not yer members. (I myself prefer to kno who my members are what there class is and what there role in the guild is). I dont like to allow folks into my guild who cant contribute in some way. Tho if yer in a smaller guild this is turned around to where if you only have 15-20 members your either gonna have a key group of people who are gonna try to work for the guild OR your gonna have a bunch of guys who dont want to do anything other then have an xtra chat channel.

If you go for a large guild anticipate spending a lot of time trying to figure out who/what yer members are good for but xpect good turnouts (sometimes) and an active chat channel. Leading is essential as is a good set of "Officers" who can lead the guild in yer absence if u ever have to go becuz of rl problems.Missoins are fairly easy to complete mainly becuz most of the time you have the able bodies willing to help.

If you go for a smaller guild anticipate Knowing who everyone is and yet not knowing if anyones gonna show up for the meeting/event you have scheduled, and whether or not trying to be a leader is neccessary. Being in guild can be boring in a smaller guild at times mainly becuz if yer doing missions solo then theres nothing interesting and if yer like me lol u need to do 2 things at once to stay interested in this game.
Well im sure that this has all be reitereated b4 but this is just my experiance there a lot more to it then just that but thats the basics of it. Your best bet is to go with yer gut feeling and whatever u decide remember that your core group would be a good basis to hold the guild together.