Borealis Pact signed in the ICC

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Dr Tiny


From the medical lab of Dr Tiny
Medical officer of Desert Winds

Jynne there has been evidence that reclaim technology, which is dependent on notum is not working correcntly. Is this due to depletion of notum stocks or problems with the technology that have been kept from us by the developers? The subway in Borealis is full of rejected avatars created by the reclaim process. I suggest you inspect the place for your self or send some agents on your behalf. We have research and data on the beings in the subway, you can read it if you wish to see the work that is based on "biased figures of racial extremists and eco-terrorists".

There is other cirumstantial evidence of nanomage suffering from notum deficiency sickness, this is invariably fatal. Also reports have reached us of individuals who are being afected by changes in notum levels.

I am very much in favour a study to examine these reports to verify their authenticity and reliability.

Dr Tiny:

The unreliability of Reclaim Technology has always been a fact of life since its first development several hundred years ago. There is an approximately 2% failure rate, as far as I recall, that is inherent in the technology even in the event of a healthy and recently-scanned person's demise. People who are very unhealthy, or who have not scanned recently, experience higher failure rates.

Furthermore, reclaim technology is not certified as either safe or effective for people under the age of 16, nor over the age of, I believe, 72. Something about their "souls" as it were, are not able to find the way back to their reconstituted bodies.

Given the smallest, most basic 2% failure rate, and given the numbers of people continually dying and reclaiming on Rubi-Ka, it is less surprising that there is a small number of failed resurrections lurking deep underground, and more surprising that the streets aren't choked with "reclaim zombies" from failed resurrections.

[Praecautus]

Then I hope it's co incidence that these 'beings' have been spotted in such numbers since the deregulation of notum drilling on Rubi-Ka.

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Dr Tiny
Then I hope it's co incidence that these 'beings' have been spotted in such numbers since the deregulation of notum drilling on Rubi-Ka.

There's no coincidence. But the causality isn't linked directly to removal of notum from the planet. It's linked to lots of people going out and killing each other for it.

Notum drilling = notum wars. Notum wars = more people dying in a shorter timeframe. More people dying in a shorter timeframe = more failed resurrections per unit of time, numerically speaking... even if the percent chance of failure remains the same.

[Dabblez]

Originally posted by Jynne
It's a major pet peeve of mine, on the OOC level, Savoy. Many otherwise excellent roleplayers tend to ignore the most basic fundamentals of Rubi-Ka's history, present situation, physics and metaphysics and claim that it's true... when it's not.The crux of my argument/rant/peeve is this:

(edit)

We can't play together as equals and having enjoyable and meaningful roleplay gaming experiences, if we don't play by the same rules. And the official information from FC, is the rules.

/ooc

Oh I do understand where you are coming from. I find myself time and time again getting mixed up discussions I really have no business getting involved in simply becasue I find logic is sloppy and the facts not adding up.

But to a degree we all live in little parallel realities on Rubi-Ka. The information on the timeline is just too slim to make a real world, we either keep making stuff up on the fly or operate in some sort of void. The bits we make up won;t mesh with the bits other people make up. It's not that difficult to politely gloss over these things; we do the same with graphic bugs or server problems.

As for the NLF/DW claim, it's not that implausible.

1. It is not unreasonable in-character, to question the results of the research mentioned in the timeline. There would have been big vested interests which might have influenced the results.

2. Even if the experts in good faith, sometimes they are wrong. We did not run out of fossil fuels as people expected in the 70's, the Millemium Bug did not bring the collapse of civilisation.

3. Some people even today believe in astrology.

4. One of the better arguments I think came from Dr Tiny himself. Assuming the 1000 years of notum resources at current mining rates estimate was accurate, that was before deregualtion. Say after dergulation mining increased ten fold (that seems rather high but there are no hard and fast stats on the timeline about this), then the notum reserve goes down to a mere 100 years, which is not that long.

Actually my pet peeve is "insurance hacking". Seems like ever fixer and their dog claims they can hack someones insurance. That can't be right, surely?

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Savoy


/ooc

Oh I do understand where you are coming from. I find myself time and time again getting mixed up discussions I really have no business getting involved in simply becasue I find logic is sloppy and the facts not adding up.

But to a degree we all live in little parallel realities on Rubi-Ka. The information on the timeline is just too slim to make a real world, we either keep making stuff up on the fly or operate in some sort of void. The bits we make up won;t mesh with the bits other people make up. It's not that difficult to politely gloss over these things; we do the same with graphic bugs or server problems.

/ooc Cut some stuff... I agree that it's less implausible than a lot of things I see/read/hear about.

What I'm objecting to is that it's being treated seemingly as an OOC truth, and that people who are being recruited into these guilds probably aren't being told (though I have asbolutely no evidence of this and I'll take Doc Tiny's or Fleshreaper's word for it) that the foundation of their orgs charter is based on something that's not supported by the official FC story.

However deregulated notum production is, it will probably be held in check by the tower wars. Having several mines blown up and damaged on a daily basis can't be good for the old GNP.

And... from what Ragnar's said, and other official FC sources, I think notum is actually limitless. It actually comes from the Shadowlands, where it's liquid in its pure form. Something in the shadowlands is producing the notum (Gaute and Znore have made references to a "huge violent geyser" of notum being at the center of the shadowlands) and somehow it's present as a crystal or mineral in this dimension.

Actually my pet peeve is "insurance hacking". Seems like ever fixer and their dog claims they can hack someones insurance. That can't be right, surely?

Yes this is another bad one, but I guess perma-death is something that has to be possible somehow in order for people to have an IC way to quit a character, or have realistic risk in their scenaries.

[Aazamon]

There are many points that people miss about the nature of the notum-nanomage connection. Nanomages need a very large amount of notum in the natural environment to live. That is why we can not leave the planet. Even bringing massive amounts of notum to another planet and surrounding oneself with it would not keep a nanomage alive. We FEEL the depreciation and the effects it has on us very quickly. Most nanomages explain these feelings away but closer study of oneself and meditation on the matter will clear your mind and you will be aware of the notum depreciation more closesly. It is true that Omni-Tek's large mines take more notum than all the small surface mines combined, but the surface mines are more dangerous to Nanomage people in the short term. The notum near the surface is VITAL to nanomage health, and not in trace amounts, but in abundance.

Some say that notum is so abundant so it doesn't matter how fast you mine it. If I use the same logic say I take 20% of the Hydrogen off the planet, no harm in that it's very abundant right? See my point?

There is also another issure involved that many many people have missed. We now have proof that the soul exists. This is proof of something beyond science. We also know that on Rubi-Ka the soul has a vehicle for being transported back to the body, notum. Why is this, what makes this "element" so special. I studied this my whole life. I meditated on this matter for years and years before I heard the voice. Rubi-Ka is ALIVE, notum is its live fource. Nanomages are ONE with Rubi-Ka. Let Rubi-Ka guide your way.

[Aazamon]

OOC: The NLF does not follow the main story of AO, in that we see it as boring. We do however closely follow history and only fill in the blanks with interesting bits. Often contradictions are actually differing points of view. For instance the Abillity of notum to regenerate. There is no hard evidence in the story to confirm or deny this. The NLF doesn't deny this, but we do state clearly that depreciation of the notum is far outstripping the planets natural abillity to replenish notum, and that any commercial notum mining opperations would do so. Also we are in favor of Studies on Notum, use of notum on planet, and anything that fits into the "story". You may see some of the leeps I take as a character as "too far out there" but that's my character and not the entire NLF. You may see me, or the entire NLF as complete nuts if you like, but we are here, we are making a point, and I hope you enjoy the new conflict we are bringing. One thing to keep in mind is that you as a player may know things that the developers are planning in the future, or thier discussions on the nature of Rubi-Ka, but your character doesn't. Your character is faced whith what is done on planet and what is printed in the news. Try to think from that perspective and the conflicts in our story to the main AO story seem very slim indeed. Actually instead of conflicting with the main AO story I think we add a depth that is interesting, difficult to deal with, and may have serious IC ramifications .

[BlockAndLode]

But since when did you folks become the official voice of Borealis?
Did we independant people vote on your rise to power?
Just curious... becuase we Forsaken do not remember ever voting on this issue...

[Aazamon]

Sorry Madgadget but we aren't claiming in any way to be the voice of Borealis. The pact takes it's name from where it was drawn up. Also Borealis is a neutral town in which the members of the pact will meet and discuss issues of the pact. It in no way implies that it is a pact of the people of borealis.

[Praecautus]

((I am not going to respond to the OOC parts of this thread as i really dont want to get involved in an OOC slanging match which is where this could go))

Jynne I agree entirly, however I want to be sure. Who wouldnt.

One of our scientists, Hibernaculum, has asked me to make you aware of the following. he is not a good writer so i have had to 'clean' this up somewhat.

Imagine, Rubi-Ka is a place of finite size and resources. Everyday we blast parts of Rubi-Ka (the notum) into orbit. As a result everyday a finite resource is reduced, the thing with finite is its finite. Notum levels will go down as it is shipped away from Rubi-Ka. Unless of course
1. Notum can be produced from chemicals and conditions present on Rubi-Ka, but again they will be finite and eventually must run out.
2. notum can 'magically' regenerate from nothing, spontaneous creation if you will. Now my history is a little vague on this area but i believe spontaneous creation was scientifically disproved many thousands of years ago.

Now there many be a billion years worth of notum left, it may be a weeks worth. But why should we sit back and let it be blasted away? Each gram of notum sent into orbit reduces the time that various species will be able to survive, the most vocal are the nanomage. I suspect with evolution being the way it is that other species have evolvoved to use notum for their everyday survival. I do not support mass genocide of a group which is waht the drilling,processing and export of notum is doing to the nanomage amongst others.

edit - to add thestuff about Hibernaculum

[Rubel]

Originally posted by Jynne
The planet isn't dying. The nanomages aren't dying. Maybe if you did some reputable research instead of proffering the biased figures of racial extremists and eco-terrorists, you'd realize this.

OOC: Read the Rubi-Ka Timeline. Do a search on the Archives for posts by Ragnar Tornquist (the original story consultant/developer for AO). Notum's not rare. It's probably the third-most common substance on Rubi-Ka, after hydrogen and idiots

OOC:

I just read the entire Rubi-Ka Timeline specifically to look for proof that notum isn't rare, and there's not one single line that would suggest this.

I also read each and every one of the posts by Ragnar Tornquist on the forums, which took me more than an hour, and not once did he mention how common notum is on Rubi-Ka.

I also went through the news archives, and found these two official news stories that support the view that the extended notum mining is adversely affecting living beings on Rubi-Ka:

http://www.anarchy-online.com/conten...otumforce.html

http://www.anarchy-online.com/conten...e4/subway.html

Now, as I'm not done reading Prophet without Honor yet, I don't know if there's any unbiased and relevant information on the notum supply there, please enlighten me if there is.

As it stands, I've checked all the sources you mentioned, and found nothing. I'll have to conclude that what you've said is your own opinion only , since it doesn't appear to reflect any information available on the AO official site.

[________________Fiqh]

Caveat: This is my personal opinion and NOT that of my guild

I am surprised at how little this thread actually discusses BORPAC. It is an open declaration of war by at least two neutral orgs and every guild that signs up to that Pact. Consequently, I have a question:

Can the members of the BORPAC guilds be considered as "kill-on-site" and "targets-of-opportunity" at all times? In other words - "open season"?

Just thought I'd ask.

[Aazamon]

Caveat your callousness is sickening. we are talking about removing structures and you talk of killing us on site? You don't belive that Nanomages have a right to live? You don't care that Notum Mining as it stands is not sustainable, and if we don't stop it now, it will end when the notum wells have dried up, and mass genocide has occured?

[Dabblez]

/ooc

Figh, I guess it depends on what the legal status of DW and NFL is. Obviously as players we can see the guild tag, but what does this mean in game?

It is easy to understand how something like "Omni Pol" or even a private company like "RUR" might be registered somewhere be scannable. It's trickier for illegal orgs.

Rela life Illegal associations like "the Gambino family" mafia or the IRA do not have real legal status. It not like you'd include that kind of information on your tax return. And though everyone at the time might have know Al Capone or Jon Gotti were running the mob, proving it in court is entirely different question.

So when you see someone with the tag "Mockers", "Devil's Advocate" or "NLF", what are you to think? Do you just ingore that tag? Do you assume that tags actually refer to a legittimate business front, like Sicillian olive oil import business, used to cover the criminal operation?

[UwensBack]

Originally posted by Fiqh
Caveat: This is my personal opinion and NOT that of my guild

I am surprised at how little this thread actually discusses BORPAC. It is an open declaration of war by at least two neutral orgs and every guild that signs up to that Pact. Consequently, I have a question:

Can the members of the BORPAC guilds be considered as "kill-on-site" and "targets-of-opportunity" at all times? In other words - "open season"?

Just thought I'd ask.

/me sighs

I'll say it again, this is GOOD for the clans. here is my reasoning, for the second time:

"If these people suceed and notum mining is stopped OmniTek will have no further use for the planet and therefore, if no profit is made, they will leave. Personally, I don't care about notum mining or notum, apart from the fact that I don't want the nanomage friends that I have to die. If you look at this rationally, no OmniTek employee would be allowed or would, in their right mind, support this as it would lead to the downfall of their company. However, if you are clan, there is no reason NOT to support it. Sure, you won't mine notum anymore, but if you can remember the time before we had access to notum, we did just fine. In my view, we did better back then. The economy was more diversified and we didn't depend on one single product. Many developing nations of ancient Earth relied too heavily on one export and that lead to their downfall.

On a related note, why would any Nanomage work for OmniTek when OmniTek is killing them slowly? I don't quite understand that. It works the same for Atrox, but I supposed the reduced mental capacities of our Atrox brethren could account for some of that, the Nanomage are supposed to have enhanced mental capacities.

((OOC: Well, since OT is headed by Omega (which we don't know IC) it doesn't technically make sense for anyone, OPifex, Nano, Atro, and ESPECIALLY Solitus to work for them, but thats only knowledge OOC))

In short, if all notum is stopped, it only helps the clans and neutrals and only hurts OmniTek. Therefore, it logically recieves my support.

I hope everyone can appreciate the logical breakdown of how this can help. I apologise to the NLF if I left out idealogies, but including them would only clutter it and it makes as much sense leaving them out."

Therefore, there is no reason to want to attack them. This is good for the clans.

[Rubel]

Originally posted by Savoy
/ooc

Figh, I guess it depends on what the legal status of DW and NFL is. Obviously as players we can see the guild tag, but what does this mean in game?

It is easy to understand how something like "Omni Pol" or even a private company like "RUR" might be registered somewhere be scannable. It's trickier for illegal orgs.

Rela life Illegal associations like "the Gambino family" mafia or the IRA do not have real legal status. It not like you'd include that kind of information on your tax return. And though everyone at the time might have know Al Capone or Jon Gotti were running the mob, proving it in court is entirely different question.

So when you see someone with the tag "Mockers", "Devil's Advocate" or "NLF", what are you to think? Do you just ingore that tag? Do you assume that tags actually refer to a legittimate business front, like Sicillian olive oil import business, used to cover the criminal operation?

OOC:

Just because people like to call us terrorists doesn't mean we're criminal, unless you define anyone that attacks another org's mining tower a criminal... in which case there's a whole lot of criminal individuals and guilds on this planet.

Not that we mind OOC though, the renegade/terrorist tag is quite useful when it comes to creating interesting RP opportunities.

As for the IC use of tags, I think there's been some indications from official sources that everybody actually have implanted ID chips that will give you information on the person if you access it... and supposedly these would be hard to alter/forge. Don't take my word for it though.

[Dabblez]

Originally posted by Rubel



As for the IC use of tags, I think there's been some indications from official sources that everybody actually have implanted ID chips that will give you information on the person if you access it... and supposedly these would be hard to alter/forge. Don't take my word for it though.

That is not realy the point though. Hypothetically if we had this id chips today, and IRA terrorist who had never before been conficted would not had IRA written on his chip. He might have a cover job on this chip or maybe the identity of a legal political party unofficially associated with the IRA. In the same way a mafioso would not have "Gambino family" on his ID chip, would he?

Its not up to me to say whether the NLF is like a legitimate neutral political party, an registered charity, or an illegal subversive movement. All I am saying is that the ID chip idea gets a little fuzzy when you are not dealing with organisations that are part of the establishment.

[Silinary]

Its kinda funny ... The clans want to get rid of omni-tek so the planet can be free and safe.

Omni wants the clans gone so they can mine in peace.

The ICC deregulate notum mining, so now, the clans are mining notum, as well as omni. All clan mined notum is sold to omni, and they shoot it of world for greater profit. All omni mined notum is just shot off world for profit.

If the clans stop mining, omni will widing their operatiosn to make sure the notum flows.

If omni stops mining and leaves the planet, all the other hyper corporations anxious for a piece of the pie will move in.

If the clans succeed in their freedom, they are opening rubi-ka up to larger scale invasions. If omni stays, then its only one corporation you have to deal with.


In a way, this planet was doomed from the very beginning. It will never see peace again, except for the total extermination of all living things. Whats the point in fighting for soemthing, if in the end, it really won't matter. The corporations will continue to mine rubi-ka. Be it omni, in a controlled manner, or some other corporation with less morals, battleships, and some orbital class bombs...

Perhaps we need to think of large scale defences of rubi-ka, before you oust a force that while can be highly annoying, is able to defend you from all the other sharks out there.

[UwensBack]

Why do you think that if Omni leaves or if its power is reduced that the planet will be successfully invaded by other corporations? When we were last invaded, we banded together and overcame the intruders. If OmniTek gave up its government status and functioned solely as a company, they would make more profit because they would not have to maintain an army and a government. The army and the governmental facilities could be handed over to a unified RubiKan Democratic government. With the former OmniAF combined with clan forces into one army, we could repulse any invader imaginable. Unfortunately, OmniTek would never agree to such a deal, though I do not understand why. They would profit more and worry less about PR. We would get a democratic government with a strong army to defend ourselves. Its good for everybody.

[Rubel]

Originally posted by Savoy


That is not realy the point though. Hypothetically if we had this id chips today, and IRA terrorist who had never before been conficted would not had IRA written on his chip. He might have a cover job on this chip or maybe the identity of a legal political party unofficially associated with the IRA. In the same way a mafioso would not have "Gambino family" on his ID chip, would he?

Its not up to me to say whether the NLF is like a legitimate neutral political party, an registered charity, or an illegal subversive movement. All I am saying is that the ID chip idea gets a little fuzzy when you are not dealing with organisations that are part of the establishment.

Ah, now I see where you're going with this.

I guess I've always figured guilds in AO as "official" structures, as in being officially registered with their faction and/or ICC. The problem with AO in this regard is that you can only be affiliated with one guild.

In RL, your hypothetical IRA member would be a member of the "guild" IRA, but he would probably be a member of some other "guild" as well, providing him with a living. This could easily be an English company...

To put it in AO terms the upstanding member of an OT guild would be a non-OT terrorist on his spare time. He'd be a member of an official OT guild and an unofficial Clan/neut guild. Since the game mechanics doesn't allow for this, we're left with the problem of trying to explain pure game mechanic restrictions IC, which is always very difficult.

The way AO tries to handle this, is to give us the explanation that Clan and Omni are both openly displaying their side at all time because neither of them want moles in their organizations. This is an acceptable, if not totally satisfactory, solution... but what then about the neutrals? That's a tough one to answer.