In Progress - Early 13.2 Build Notes

[__________starknaked]

Yes, it does stop grid camping, mostly.

It also will probably make PVP even more non existant than it already is.

About the only meaningful thing to do in PVP in this game was to attempt to "hold" 2holes for your side. That is, if you got a bunch of players from your side in, you could control 2holes.

That was mostly broken when the changes to 2holes took place and the grid and whompa were moved apart and the omni guards were put in place. This change should be the final nail in the coffin for that.

It means that 2holes is now totally safe for people who want to do missions, which of course is what this game is all about. Doing missions and gaining levels.

It's not about anything else.

[____________Phinnias]

After further reflection, I have decided to agree with you. My first reaction was based on my experience of zoning in by grid or whompa to 2HO (as an Omni character, into an Omni zone) and instantly being killed before I even had a chance to do a thing.

I now realize my comment was hasty, because I looked over one obvious situation that I've never personally run into, but could easily happen. The people zoning in might not be the victims.

If they players zoning in are invunerable, then you could easily have large groups of players from one side entering into an area controlled by another side (like what happens in 2HO so often) for the sole purpose of killing off any players that just happen to be standing around their own city/area minding their own business.

I shouldn't be an easy target if I show up in 2HO 30 seconds ago, but then 10 clanners zone in at once and kill the first Omni they see (which might be me). Sure, they negate their invulerability, but by the time I can react, I'm dead.

[____________Phinnias]

Starknaked, the only reason this would "hurt" PvP (making it less common) is that people are too lazy and don't want to pay the consequences of PvPing in areas where they can't easily just grid back to.

Every single PvP encounter I've had with anyone in AO has been exactly the same. A player who was green to me, but using grossly overequipped items (such as the 37 enforcer using q120+ implants, and a q 137 weapon) and often buffed by level 100+ friends who are standing back buffing and healing him.

I'd like to see some PvP'ers actually show some guts... Start a fight in the many other 25% zones that aren't as easy to get back to (and have a little "risk", if you can really speak of travel time like that). If you're really a tough guy, maybe you can even challenge your opponent to let them know they are about to be in a battle.

[__________starknaked]

Challenging your opponent means you're dueling. This is totally lame. The clans and Omnitek are supposed to be at war, not "at duel".

Here's the text of a message I just wrote in another thread, to funcom about pvp.

This game is supposed to be about the conflict between Omnitek and the clans, and yet, at any particular point in time, less than 1 player in 1000 in the game is actually participating in PVP.

This oughta tell you that something is wrong with the PVP system, and that your fixes have not fixed it.

The major problem, the biggest problem with PVP, is that there is no point to it. Stand around 2holes for an hour, kill a couple people, then someone kills you. Whoopee.

In order to make PVP meaningful, there must be some point to it. There needs to be some incentive. I see this happening in two different ways.

1. There need to be enemy bases which can be taken over and controlled. Some area which one side or the other can control and which can change sides, with any guards present switching from one side to the other. These bases should have some point to them, and not just be a little area off in the middle of nowhere that nobody cares about.

2. There needs to be a way to see how many points you have towards your next PVP rank, so that you might possibly feel some sort of sense of personal accomplishment after fighting successfully. When you kill monsters or do missions, you can see yourself earning credits and making experience. When you fight in pvp, people would feel more of a sense of accomplishment if they could see that they just gained 10 points or 50 points or whatever towards their next PVP rank.

So far you haven't done anything towards #2 yet, and as far as #1, you've actually been making all sorts of changes in the wrong direction!

2holes was actually an area in the game which fit the requirements for my first idea. It was an area which could be controlled by one side or the other, because it could only be entered through the grid or whompa entrances which were very close to each other.

And it was an important area. 2holes was the only easy entrance to a number of zones in the game, and with players from each side wanting to do missions there, it was actually important to have your side controlling 2holes.

And, you totally ruined it for pvp by separating the grid and whompa and putting in the Omni guards. This now makes it nearly impossible for either side to control 2holes. And your new 15 second invulnerability rule will ruin it even more, as now anyone will be able to grid in in safety and run off to do their missions with no danger of being attacked.

This is great for those who want to do missions. But this game should be about more than levelling up and doing missions, shouldn't it? Wasn't this game supposed to be about the Omnitek/clan conflict?


I would suggest putting 2holes BACK THE WAY IT WAS ORIGINALLY. Put the grid entrance back where it used to be, get those Omni guards out of there, and make sure that the new 15 second invulnerabilty is broken as soon as you move, >and< that you are not able to attack anyone during the 15 second period.

Then you'd have a PVP area which had some purpose, and each side would have incentive to control it. And with the 15 second invulnerability, this would make it possible for one side or the other to bring in players to attack the opposide side, without having them all killed before the zone loaded.

[__________TiDaLbLaDe]

i think the 15 is a great idea ... for 1 thing it stops people from just killing your outright and gives you a chance, another thing is that... if your doing missions in a place were theirs pvp u should have some chance of being able to get to it.

on another people with me, who only have 128 mb of ram, have a lil lagg zoneing into places, esp crowded places... so sometimes when i zone it takes me 5-(sometimes)1 min to zone ... and while your character is sitting their for the 1 waiting for your ram to catch up, you get killed ... not fun, and that destroys the point of pvp... sure the whole "controling 2holes" might b hindered, dunno about destroyed, but now u grid campers have to put some skill into your pvp, maybe think up some strategy to controlling that area ...

[_______________chynn]

Hello starknaked,

I can't speak for other gamers other than myself, but here goes ...

/me speaks

I don't PvP for several reasons.

Even though I am of Omni faction does not mean that I hold grievances against every clanner I see.

I'm a nanotech, and we NTs are known for being of independent thought, so faction is NOT one of my criteria for making and keeping friends. Nor is it justification for killing anyone either.

My blind nanos don't work so I have one heck of a time nerfing any burst, auto, or aimed shots.

My range has been nerfed so I cannot avoid being shot at by anyone ... and this is a real bummer.

I am not interested in collecting "pinkies" just for the reward nor am I interested in collecting titles for killing anyone. It's a matter of principle.

And having read "Prophet Without Honour", I have decided to wait until the game story develops more before I decide for whom and against whom I am going to fight.

You see, there are some really bad, bad, baddies out there. You just haven't met them yet.

/me shuts up

Hope this helps ...

[__________starknaked]

Chynn, it is totally fine that you don't pvp, and that many players choose not to participate in PVP.

But when nobody does it, it pretty much kills the story. There is really no clan/omnitek conflict when only 5 people out of 10,000 are PVPing at any one time.

[_______________chynn]

Hiyas, Starknaked,

Oh, I'm going to PvP alright.

What I meant was that I was going to pick the time, place, and opponent.

PvP, for me, is not what "tickles my innards". PvP against the real bad-guys (and they are not going to be clan, neutral, or omni) is when I will buckle on my armor and head for the front lines.

PvP against clanners, neutrals, or omnis, just for the sake of PvP, is not why I play AO.

But I realize that, for some, it is the main reason why they play AO ... and I respect that.

I also agree that Funcom needs to do a lot more PvP fine-tuning and those who do PvP are the pioneers in this area.

I believe Funcom will have to have a very good PvP system going before they release "the other guys" against the inhabitants of Rubi-Ka.

Think cyborgs are bad? Hah! They are nothing compared to how bad it's going to get ...

[Isgrimnur]

Hmm well since they reduced the damage by 50%, the only way you could get a real advantage was to hit em as they were zoning in, at least root them so they couldn't run away.

I would like to make a couple suggestions about this: make vehicles NOT have that annoying 10sec delay anymore, the reason you did this is long past needed.

If we have a 15 sec zone in, we shouldnt be able to get attacked OR attack during that time...if u take the timers off vehicles we can quickly get into our cars/planes and take off.

If we can do this, we need something to make pvp real. Lately 2ho had been DEAD! I actually liked the old system better, less running and more of a luck thing, do i crit or does he crit.

Um why are human npcs in missions/other areas taking pvp style damage?


Last thing fix that crazy take it easy crap...I CAN'T believe you still haven't figured that out.

- fix cloaking devices too
- fix conceal while your at it.

[Ashuras]

haha... the 15 second thing is good.

And what's wrong when them being able to initiate the attack ?

If u are NOT grid/whompa camping. U could well stay out of range of the GRID/Whompa and would NOT be a victim of the loss of initiative.

Simple as that. Those that are already in the zone have the option of keeping out of range. U do not have to stay there and be a sitting duck.

Those who are zoning in needs the protection due to loading lag.

This is a fair and good change to eliminates unfair ambush kind of scenario where the opponent has no chance to fight back.

Must be quite a bad news for Starknaked I think u'll need to think up new tactics. I'm sure there are other exploits in PVP.

[_________Blacksirius]

I love most of the changes, Funcom! Just try to avoid major bugs when the patch goes to live.

Keep up the good work!

[_______________Skara]

A change needed to be made, but the problem with the person gridding in being able to initiate the attack, is the griefers would then be the ones using the grid instead of the ones camping the grid.

Grid in, [TAB] to the nearest green, Fling, Burst, FA, then grid back out if outnumbered.

I agree that this would be better than being blasted before you even had control of your character, but not much better. In theory, it would add some intensity. As you approach the grid, you see the shimmer of someone gridding in. Is it the enemy? If it is an enemy with some awesome specials, it would be over, and they are guaranteed to get the first shot in.

Not good. Neither should be able to attack for x amount of time. No one has an advantage (people would wear out their attack buttons trying to time the 15 seconds as closely as possible though)

I do like the idea of PvP points, and my being able to see them. I have won more PvP than I have lost, but have no idea how close I am to a title. Would definitely add some incentive. Imagine if you had no idea how many XP you needed to level.


Skara

[_______thatguyyeshim]

First off, I consider myself a warrior with warrior ethics, part of that is "fair play", let me TELL YOU. Being grid camped and grid camping is about the MOST STUPID AND LAME thing you CAN DO. Because you TAKE ADVANTAGE of people who can NOT control their characters, and anyone running a 33.6k modem takes about 15 seconds to zone. I would LOVE thea bility to attack after gridding and being invunerable and killing that lame little piece of grid camping #(*&*&*&*&#$#$#$ and laugh and cry and laugh and strut my stuff "HAHA YOU SUCK YOU LEET GRID CAMPER HAHAHAHA"...seriously though, this WILL eliminate grid camping and it is a step in the right direction! I pvped in Evercrap for almost 3 years, biggest problem? ZONE LINE CAMPING...or in AO...GRID CAMPING, while the Evercrap people NEVER fixed it...AO comes here and fixes it after a few months. Give them credit, they fix the problems very quickly and are responsive to the player environment.

Second part. Missions and the insane rate that mobs regenerate.

I did about 12 missions over the past 4 days.
I am a 120 Martial Artist.
Each mission, took a mininum of 2 hours each, those were the UNSUCCESFUL missions, the succesful ones took about 5 hours each. Only 4 missions were succesful, the other 8 I was not able to do. Why?
Simple, mobs were regenrating like NUTS.
My hits were MUCH less.
I had green mobs, GREEN mobs...yes..GREEN...both monsters AND unbuffed npc neutrals with nanos, and without nanos...regenerate so fast I can't even kill them.
500, 500, 400, 120...then my hand to hand does only mininum damage
86
86
86
86
86
86
86
86
500
600
600
600
83
83
83
83
unless its a critical hit, I only do mininum damage with hand to hand. I combine this with a QL 120 Katana.
My weapon speed skill is at 500
My hand to hand skill is at 500
And I can't kill greens???
Suffice to say those 12 missions were the absolute worst time I spent on this game in months.
I almost felt like quitting my account I was so sick, but decided to go back to leveling and wait for them to fix the missions.
Before 13.0, I found missions fun, afterwards, ECK.
The only succesful missions was because I had to tema up with a level 100 MP.
And oh yes, ALL of those missions that were succesful were the same level as me. 3 of the missions were 20, 10, and 5 levels above me, and I had about a snow flake's chance in hell of doing them. The mobs were healing insanely fast and I was doing very very mininmal damage.
I won't be doing missions as a MA until they fix this, I"m tempted to start a soldier with massive firepower and reflect shields to do missions. As a MA, I can't raise any money except by exping.

And yes, you will ask, why not do lower level missions?
Because I wanted tokens, and setting it to lower than 50% yields me about a mission with 95% greys and hence no tokens.

[Indycc]

One note that has bothered me. There was a lot of talk about how the pet pathing got fixed with 13.0. Did it really? I mean I am having more problems in missions now than I ever have before. I tell my bot to attack and it just walks into a wall while i get pummeled. Is anyone else finding this to be true?

[______________TaoMan]

To starknaked.

First we are not at war, I will conceed we are not a dual either, but even if we were at war it is no reason to kill a person who can not defend them selves.

OK this isn't to Starknaked but to pvpers in general.
I know what a lot of you are thinking, but it is war, kill or be killed, alls fair in war.

Well if all is fair why as a rule are all enemy snipers captured in war killed on the spot. Real warriors will acknowlage the power of a lone gunman but a lot really don't like them. If you ever meet a real sniper ask them, they will say a lot of people snub them. I am good friends with a guy who was a sniper in nam. Got a head shot in sitting in a tree from almost 1 click away! but most of his friends wouldn't talk to him after a kill. There is something just not honerable in killing a person like that.

one on one, in a fair fight is the only true way to fight. Ok times call for other action to be taken but you can't just sit back and not admit that what you are doing is not honerable.

As far as 2ho is concerned I was ganked there just the other day. Don't act like its a daycare center now.

What I here is it is fair for you to sit and blow someones friggin head off as soon as they grid in but not fair for them to jump in a car so you can't blow their head off. God forbid that some low life ultratwinked bottom feeder misses a kill.

To me PVP is not the story and never will be the story it is just minor background noise that may or may not add a twist or curve to the real story.

Let me put it to you this way. In "Dune" the harkonen (sp? sorry been so long since I read the book forgot how it was spelled) took over Dune. Now that was a very important point in the story but it was not the story. If you think the story was all about getting dune back from them then you have a shallow mind. The story of dune was a rich tapastry hung on the framwork of that fight.

2HO omni owned clan owned who gives a flying monkey's arse. I really don't care who owns a tiny speck of dust on a bigger speck of dust on the far flung reaches of the galaxy.

[___________MrTeatime]

I agree, people should not be able to attack during the 15 second period. It should be enough to be invulnerable.

Otherwise it seems like a nice patch, just get it out soon

About the /org commands:
Read the top right corner of your login window, they will fix them this tuesday.

[________________Lona]

"Added 15 seconds of invulnerability when someone zones into a playfield, to help eliminate zone camping. Unless you attack someone first, you will be invulnerable to attack for the 15 second period."

Verygood I have been waiting for this since the release of the game. WTG

But i miss "We have increase the range cap to 60m".

[Paffy]

FC do you have any old time MMORPG players there or even old MUD players? You show it SO plainly that you dont know what you are doing...

Allright, here we go...

Add 15 sec invulnerability

The bad:
You now grant attacker the initiative. Example if someone is grid camping (lame tactics yes I know) and attacker zones in (me example). My connection and computer is fast enough to load area faster than 15 seconds so now I can take a look around, pick my target and initiate combat with my alpha strike while the other player cant do anything but run (and even that wont help since if I am NT and initiate, there is no place to run, you WILL be hit).

This will make "holding" of certain places very difficult since large force can zone in and prepare themself and initiate combat. So you just turned table around and didnt fix anything.

The good:
It makes grid camping bad tactic mostly since you will be at the receiving end of alpha strike, not the one who initiates it.

The solution:
Make a "halo" or some other glow effect visible on invulnerable player and make it impossible to attack him AND for him to attack while that invulnerability is in effect. When halo drops, both are free to go same time.

Zarch and bunch of other chars

PS. Come to think of it, the player who has invulnerability prolly shouldnt be allowed to move either during that time...

[_____________Scrappy]

I don't think I want to be under the influence of a mandatory 15 second 'hold' nano every time I zone. That's what I see several players advocating, and I doubt you'd like it once you tried it. The change proposed for the patch affects ALL zones, and if you add immobility to it you have drastically affected the game in a bad way.

I think the 15 second feature sounds about right. You just have to change your tactics, that's all.

[____________Nevander]

On the zoning changes:
I like the invulnerability. Good thing, FC.

I don't like "until you attack"-part. Bad thing, FC

I defenitely don't like the "hold while invulnerable"-suggestions. This would only mean more people could gang up on you when you exit the grid point, for example. Five guys can target you and just sit there pressing their attack-key... as soon as your invulnerability wears off, the bursts, aimed shots, flings and full autos start raining in over you and the grid camping situation hasn't changed much... If you're able to move, but not attack or get attacked, then you have a chance to relocate and get a bearing of people in the area.

To stark: With the 15 second delay, much won't change. You can still hold your precious 2HO... it will just require a little skill and tactics instead of just camping the grid and you won't be able to do it alone... maybe that's the problem?

/Nev