Envisioned - Bureaucrat Changes

[Cosmik]

Originally posted by Graukonig
With these changes does it mean that Crats will be able to have three pets? A robot pet, stable charmed MOB, and unstable MOB. Or will they be able to cast the charms on more than one MOB each?

Well, true. Bureaucrats can potentially have 3 pets. The first, obviously, is there robotic servant. The second pet can be gained by using the 'stable' charm line. The third pet can be obtained by using the 'unstable' charm line, which has a shorter duration, and only if they can land that charm. Landing this second charm is deinfately harder than landing the 'stable' charm. Meta Physicists on the other hand can easily have their stable of pets as long as they have the nano energy to spare.

So, you'll see more Meta Physicists running around their full selection of pets rather than the Bureaucrats.

[Cosmik]

Originally posted by dfield
Thank you thank you thank you. Just one question: Is any of this stuff going to require Matter Metamorph? I've been stockpiling IP in anticipation of changes, so I should have enough to up psychology. Please condiser not requiring matt met; butif you are going to, could we have fair warning?

None use Matter Metamorphosis.

I can hear the collective sigh of relief from the Bureaucrats.

[_________________Dmv]

Originally posted by ImaGideon
Sounds really cool, go for it.

I hope that Fixers who are even worse off at high levels than crats, get something useful too finally...all other weak classes who were already way better at high levels than fixers, including crats, are through with boosting, so the worst high level class is of course the last to get boosted, but that's ok. As long as it is not another "summon crap" nano that we can't use, I can wait a bit longer.


Where did you come up with this? There are no more then 2 100+ Crats in all of Rubi-Ka and no more then 15 or so that are over 50.....

Please don't get class envy towards the most gimped and least played class in the game...We have suffered long and hard. I hope you get your fixes and I will never say "we should have this or they shouldn't have that"

You should be happy for the Crats as I am sure we will be for any class that gets the benefits of a positive tweak....I have never heard a crat say anything negative about another classes upgrade even as we were and are suffering....Please show us the same courtesy.

[__________WGMelchior]

Got a bit confused by your answer...

Could you please explain how hate is amassed?

If my pet (50% agg) and myself (0% agg) encounters a mob, how is hate allocated before anyone hit anyone?

What causes hate to build up on a mob?

[Wiretrip]

I think the crat changes look good. Maybe now I can go back and play my level 9 crat thats been collecting dust. And its good to know that FC listens (even though whatever they hear gets distorted in their minds along the way). I mean you heard the idea about being able to access the bank from anywhere (even though fixers proposed it). But then I like the idea of having real neck-tie suits. I'd like it though if it were a part of miiir's clothing line but hey, whatever makes a crat unique even by looks, then just leave it with crats. After all wouldnt we fixers be angered if everyone else got to look different in the grid? Well I think you're doing okay with this next patch but be sure to get all the bugs and kinks out of this one before you launch it on Live.

[_______________Kaine]

Ok, I'm going to break this down. My comments will be included in []'s and italics.

Bureaucrat Changes
The following are the planned changes for the bureaucrat. Some of them will make it to the 13.2 patch.

Charm
The way charm works is going to get a small overhaul. First, understand that there were always meant to be 2 charm lines for the bureaucrats – one with ‘low’ resist, and one with ‘high’ resist. The high resist charm was meant to allow the bureaucrat to charm a second monster, albeit with some difficulty. That hasn’t worked out too well in the past, but is still the plan. We’ll call the low resist charm the stable charm, and the high resist charm the unstable charm.

[As long as the "unstable" charm was a real fast cast, rather moot, I think.]

The first charm change is that, for both charm lines, a percentage of the bureaucrat’s Psychology skill is going to be added to the attack roll, above and beyond the existing check. So, the higher your Psychology skill, the better chance you have of landing your charm. Second, the duration of the stable charm is going to be dramatically increased. Roughly every 50 levels, it will be increased by 5 minutes. So, a level 200 charm would last for roughly 20 minutes.

[Problem here. Since Psyche has NEVER been needed before, and IP is tight as it is, very few 'crats have put points into this skill. Do you plan any kind of IP refund to make this skill now viable for us? This isn't like the ADV change of color. This is a MAJOR change forcing us to put IP into an unused skill until now.]

The duration of the unstable charm will be slightly extended, but not in the same way. It will still have the same, short, duration it currently has, but will have a random element to the duration added. So, you will know the minimum time the unstable charm will last, but not know exactly how long it will last.

[Another thought. How about messages warning us that we're losing control/have lost control? It's hard to control a crowd when the only way you can tell is by a mob's actions in a hectic battle]

We are also going to revamp the way mind control works so that mind controlled monsters are treated as pets in terms of what they can attack (the change where they cannot attack family members will be going away).

[THANK YOU!! I always thought that mind control meant "mob has no control over itself.]

Single target psychosis
The duration of the single target psychosis (mezz) nanos will be increased. Additionally, there will be a new one added above Disjointed From Reality (the current highest level single-target psychosis the bureaucrat possesses). Area psychosis will not be increased in duration.

[The main problem here has been in the resists more than the duration. I'll take the duration, but want the resist rates dropped dramatically. At the current rate, 8 out of 10 greys resist]

Changes to the Baton line
The XP bonus line of nanos will be increased in effectiveness. The existing progression of 1%/2%/3% will be changed to a 3%/6%/9% progression.

[You also need to reduce the NCU space these take, as people prefer doc, enf, ma etc buffs before an exp buff. People will want this (maybe), but not at the current NCU cost.]

New XP loss reduction nanos
The bureaucrat will gain a line of nanos that let them reduce the amount of XP lost upon death. These will be a short-duration emergency nano (probably around 30 seconds in duration). They are meant to be used in the "OMG OMG OMG I’m going to die! Buff me, buff me!" situation. They will be single-target nanos, not team versions.

[Have we forgotten the need for us to be wanted in teams? An anti-exp loss quickbuff would make us a little more desireable in groups. I don't think you should make this single target only. Two versions would be good. Wipeouts happen WAY too often.]

Pet Taunting
The bureaucrat will gain a new nano that allows them to increase the taunting ability of their pet (but only their robot pet, not any mind controlled pets). This will make it more likely that the pet will tank more often – NOT that it will tank 100% of the time.

[Good change. IF it works well, it could be a major change in our ability to solo, and be helpful to groups]

Speech nanos
There will be some new lines of buffs and debuffs, affecting the area around the bureaucrat. Motivational speeches will do things such as increase the chance of a critical hit, or increase nano AC. De-motivational speeches will do things such as lower nano AC, lower the chance of a critical hit, or reduce current nano points. Like the engineer nanos, the effect that is placed on other people will have a very low NCU cost; the buff on the bureaucrat will have the normal NCU cost.

[A VERY good change. I remember suggesting this, and I'm glad to see that it's being adopoted (even if it wasn't my suggestion that caused it). I still think that you can expand this a little more by making them short duration, quick casting, situation specific nanos. It's ok to give us the feel of leaders knowing what the group faces, and the best way to deal with it.]

Pets
We will be giving the bureaucrat robot pets another look. They will be getting better AC and evades, and we will also be looking into their damage capabilities and make sure they are not too far behind the MP and engineer combat pets.

[Don't forget to look at pet speed. They swing WAY too slow.]

Pets, part 2
We are also going to look into the possibility of giving the bureaucrat pets some limited nano ability. With the existing pet AI, this may or may not be possible. What is envisioned is that the pets will get some combat buffs like the enforcer’s Challenger line of buffs. They won’t use them all the time, however, just some of the time (sort of a "Woot! My pet buffed.")

[Pet self buffing is an EXCELLENT idea. It's unique to the other pet classes, without stepping on their toes. If the pets are given a more human look, this fits in well. We don't want to be the masters of pets, just have them competetive with the other pet classes considering our lack of offensive otherwise.]

Paperwork
A set of paperwork tradeskills is going to be added. (More info coming)

[No comment until I hear more, except to caution about using previously unused skills.]

Suits and Briefcase
Some special items are going to be made for the bureaucrat. Special, executive suit-and-tie items will be available, as will a suitcase. The suit will give some buff effects (such as increasing psychology and max nano energy, for example). The briefcase will allow the bureaucrat to open their personal bank from any location. How the bureaucrat will obtain these items has not been finalized.

[I like the idea, as long as the suit and tie items still carry some form of AC that works. We still have to do missions, and still get aggroed. Remember that cyber armor types are very well suited for us stat/ac wise, so please make those competetive. On the suitcase idea..I'm not sure. I think this might step on the fixer's toes a bit. I like the idea about the suitcase, just not sure accessing the bank has any real use for us. If you fixed group missions, perhaps changing this to some form of mission terminal might be a good idea. Ultimately, something like a suitcase should have some representation of "official business", not just "banking business".]

Finally, here is the new design for how mind control is going to operate:

Mind Control Design
When a monster is mind controlled, it needs to be considered exactly the same as a normal pet in terms of what it can attack. This includes it being able to attack friends (both on the same side and in the same NPC family).

[yay!]

When the mind control on the pet wears off, the following needs to happen:

The combat it is engaged in stops. It will stop attacking, and if the thing it is fighting is a monster, that monster should also stop attacking.

The hate lists of these two monsters are modified in the following ways: assume that there is a monster A, a charmed monster B and the player Z who charmed monster B. If A and B are fighting and the mind control times out, the entry for B on A’s hate list is removed, and B then inherits A’s hate list – except for the hate B may have towards Z (B keeps its own hate towards Z rather than inheriting A’s hate towards Z). If B is not in a fight when the mind control times out, then don’t do anything to its hate list. We do it this way so that when the mind control times out, B will most likely attack Z, but can still be taunted off Z; while A goes back to fighting whoever has annoyed it the most. This means that at the end of the mind control, B and A will have the same hate list, with the exception that B will also have some additional hate towards Z.

Example: players are X, Y and Z (monsters are still A and B, B mind controlled by Z). A’s hate list looks like: X=1000, Y=1500, Z=200, B=3000. B’s hate list looks like: A=2800, Z=1800. The mind control on B wears off, and A and B stop fighting. A’s hate list then looks like: X=1000, Y=1500, Z=200. B’s hate list looks like: X=1000, Y=1500, Z=1800.

[As long as all that comes down to is that we don't get over penalized for controlling a mob. Having it chase us down while we're still trying to deal with the first mob is a collossal pain]

Any damage that is done by a mind controlled monster needs to be counted towards the caster in terms of who is recognized as getting the kill on a monster (both for loot and XP purposes).

[ABSOLUTELY]

Mind controlled monsters do not follow through zone lines.

[Fair enough...agreed]

It needs to be possible to have more than one mind controlled monster at the same time.

[YES! THANK YOU! No apolgies needed if you put this back in!]


[Final thoughts:

Some of these changes are great...others need some careful thought to be done right.

What's missing, though, is our role in PVP. Will using our pets still cause the guards to attack us? Are we going to get some more offensive nanos to fill in the huge gaps? Is the nano cost and speed of some of our nanos going to be looked at?

Where are these changes targetted for? Most of our class is low to mid levels. None of this serves us much good if we have to level high to get them right now. I suggest scaling versions starting at low levels all the way up.

It's apparent that Psyche is going to play a huge part in our class. Please consider (strongly) to give us IP's to catch that skill up. This is very important.

Also, I understand that you're wanting to beef up the use of tradeskills, but considering that they're not 100%, can we PLEASE refrain from making all of these tradeskill only for now? We need serious catching up first. I suggest perhaps that you make high level versions of these mission/tradeskill only for now]

[_______________Kaine]

Some comments for the naysayers.

First of all...'crat is more gimped than the fixer at high level. In ANY game I've played...the ability to run fast, have any kind of a heal, and dish out a quick round of high damage usualy defines the "uber" classes. Sure, you need tweaks like everyone else, but you're still MUCH more played than the 'crat, and most of you are leveled MUCH higher than any crats in the game....there are reasons for that. The suitcase accessing the bank, though, probably should belong to you guys. I'd like to see the suitcase do something more "official", like the ability to create special documents that you could give out that would restore amounts of IP's (useable once per day), or invulnerable shield paperwork that are useable for emergencies (once per day again). Let the fixer summon items. Let the 'crat summon solutions. We should be the ones to grant benefits from the council/admin. Rather like a representative of the insurance company.

And to the engineers (Zarch), you've got something wrong or two. First of all, the pet buffs are SELF ONLY. The pet casts it on itself. Second, you still ARE the masters of robot pets. I highly doubt that FC is going to make our pets hit harder than yours, or take as much damage. You also get pets that get new looks over time, and serious AC buffs to your pet as well (currently, no ncu limit that I know of as well in pets). ENG pets are walking ginsu knives dripping blood. Throw in some pet aggro, and you'll probably be sipping tea while it kills for you. You also get much better pet heals, and the ability to tweak your pet like crazy.

In essence, don't start getting class envy on us. We ARE the most gimped...everyone can agree on it. We need this love and attention. Having crit percentages would make us wanted in groups, and I'm sure that stacking crit buffs would help reduce the complaint of "mobs taking too long to kill vs exp given" that the high levels complain about. If more people are doing crits, then the mob goes down faster, hence faster killing/more mobs killed in a given timeframe. One of the main problems I see that these changes DON'T cover are centered around PVP. It would be nice to be SOME kind of competing force in PVP. More nanos, lack of guard killing while using pets, more uses for roots, slows, debuffs. PVP happens way too fast for us as it is. NT's boom us twice we go bye bye before the pet even gets there. Soldiers/Fixers nearly instakill us the same way. I understand that some classes are more suited for PVP...I would just like to see us as SOME kind of force in it, rather than none at all.

[_____________Akushin]

Im absolutely overjoyed with this. Finally i can talk people to death!

One thing i think we are forgetting is that we ARE bureaucrats. We're not warriors. If you were going for PvP you should have gone for another class, thats my honest opinion. What i would like to see would be a diplomatic immunity nano that let us walk through 25% zones without fear of getting jumped. A 10 minute period of not being able to attack or be attacked by other players. It would be cool to see like.. "$p has diplomatic immunity" messages. I bet that would set that l70 clanner martial artist straight.

A while ago i was exploring the grid. Being a crat i havent really had much opportunity for exploring since i get killed by everything, but i thought it was worth a shot. Ended up in f'n meetmedere surrounded by 8+ clanners shouting "kill the omni" with no chance of a quick grid reentry. Being able to cast diplomatic immunity on myself to get out of that situation would have saved me that 8k xp loss.

But damn. Im overjoyed =D I wonder what that paperwork line will do for us tho. Perhaps let us create licences that allow people access to the grid no matter what their comp.lit skill is at? Ive been looking at nano programming recently but i cant see a crat future in that, so im very excited about the paperwork (i do realise how absurd that sounds).

So far it looks like we'll finally get a serious team part, which is what i joined the crats for in the first place. The speeches are very interesting to me tho. Are they psi nanos? Are they skills like Dimach and aimed shot? how do they work? Should they have a nanocost, really? The once a day limit suggested earlier in this thread should work rather well i imagine. *shrug*

Cheers,

- Aku

[___________MrTeatime]

One thing Kaine, the Psyche check is performed on the mobs you try to Fear or Charm. If you read the description on our nanoprograms it'll say something like "Target Psychic below xxx".

We just have to get higher ql programs, I can Fear orange/red mobs at level 63...the Fear program I use says target psychic below 163.

[Slougfey]

Let's se if I remember my thoughts... I start with the most important one. Will the suit look cool?

One thing I didn't get from the text. Will the Psychosis nanos still make the mobs look spelled, but still be able to walk/attack/whatever? If the nanos don't hit I mean.

Please, implement social moves for the pet At least some of them, or crippled robotic forms. If they can throw a punch they should be able to wave.

Now I'm very pleased

/Johan, just when I got used to explain what I could do for a group

[____________Greystar]

Originally posted by JuJutsu


I am a high level 'crat Phear Me you gimped fixer. Yeah right. Guess that's why we see hundreds of high level crats and narry a fixer to be found. What world do you play on it sure isn't Rubi-Ka 1 or 2

Fixers have:

Worst damage output, if I would use a vector shotgun with dark blue skill on max, like a crat or engineer or any other given profession could, I would deal nearly double the damage of my mausser in average, they do, that is a fact.

Single roots. They get resisted by many high level mobs 100%. Crats have single and area roots, that get resisted way less. Area roots are unbelievably powerful and useful for pulling and escaping a bad pull.

Run speed. Yeah uhm...great. With area root spells, a crat can run away safer than i ever could.

So, right now a Crat on my level would deal already nearly double my damage with his gun (if he chose wisely) alone and root better than I ever can.

Oh wait, Crats have a pet too, that deals some damage and can tank when trimmed right.

Oh wait, they can charm a mob, so they can use two attack pets, that can tank and deal damage.

Oh wait, they have the second highest line of DD attack spells after the NT.

Yes, you are really worse of than fixers. Not.

[Slougfey]

Just thought that you maybe could implement some nice graphic or something that shows that Mobs are Charmed. By now people ain't to used to our Nanos. People keep on attacking all my calmed, charmed pets all the time. Even if I tell them not to

It would help us Crats too of course

/Johan

[_______________Kaine]

Imagideon

My aren't YOU confused.

Fixers have:

Worst damage output, if I would use a vector shotgun with dark blue skill on max, like a crat or engineer or any other given profession could, I would deal nearly double the damage of my mausser in average, they do, that is a fact.

HELLLOOO!!! Exactly HOW many mausser toting people do you see walking around these days? Hook up with a trader/agent, plus your own smg buffs, and you guys are walking around with maussers twice+ your level. I've seen MAJOR damage come out of a mausser. Sure, go vektor if you want. It doesn't matter. Fixers are KNOWN for their nice damage skills.

Single roots. They get resisted by many high level mobs 100%. Crats have single and area roots, that get resisted way less. Area roots are unbelievably powerful and useful for pulling and escaping a bad pull.

Do you even PLAY a 'crat? Our roots get resisted just as much as yours. The root problems extend to EVERY class...not just yours. And anyone that uses an area root is asking for a wipeout. The point is to CONTROL how many mobs attack you. Root durations totally blow even when they do work. I'm not going to trust an AE root to hold off a bunch of aggroes while we're still trying to deal with one angry mob. In either event, recheck your resist rates. AE roots get resisted tons.

Run speed. Yeah uhm...great. With area root spells, a crat can run away safer than i ever could.

See above. And sorry, there's no way you can convince me that running away faster won't save you more than trusting an AE root....especially when what's chasing you is a deep red....or a plant. I'll take the run speed, thank you very much.

So, right now a Crat on my level would deal already nearly double my damage with his gun (if he chose wisely) alone and root better than I ever can.

LOL! What crack are YOU smoking? In order to DO damage, we'd have to use a DB skill, as pistols are so borked! And even if we went Vektor, you're forgetting that we don't have a special (can anyone say BURST...oh, a fixer can...they have that as a nicely colored skill) with the vektor. Maussers have burst, mmmMK?

Oh wait, Crats have a pet too, that deals some damage and can tank when trimmed right.

Oh yes...our pets. Those lovely creatures that run around everywhere, aggroeing mobs from all over in missions. These are the same pets that swing once every 10 seconds, right? The ones that hit for low damage and can't keep the mob off of me, even though I never fired a shot or nano? Oh, and trimmers. Personally, I've never seen ANY difference in the 'crat pet when trimming it...and you know what? All the skills to use trimmers are DB! Plus, there's never been any OFFICIAL word that trimmers work for 'crat pets. NOR do we have any indication of what trimmers do. I'm not going to blow a ton of IP on those skills until I know 100% that it's going to make a difference..and then I'll commence the complaints about the skills required to use trimmers.

Oh wait, they can charm a mob, so they can use two attack pets, that can tank and deal damage.

Oh yeah...that lovely charm that lasts about 10 seconds, gets resisted TONS, and lately has had the usefullness of teats on a bull. Now we've got a psyche check put on them..which means I have to raise a skill I've never had to use before just to operate at any proficiency. Let's keep in mind that the resist rates are pretty damn high for this as well, and is currently an UNSAFE option for most 'crats without a group to back them up when charm goes nuts.

Oh wait, they have the second highest line of DD attack spells after the NT

Why don't you do yourself a favor here and check out the nano lists on Hackersquest. You obviously don't have a clue what 'crat nanos are. Otherwise, you'd know that the spread between our offensive DD's is pathetic. Often, we'll have to wait 15 levels to get a new DD, only to outgrow it in three levels. How about the fact that our nanos are nano pigs, slow casting, and largely resisted because the majority of them are melee based damage. Oh, I don't think we even come CLOSE to the NT....not in anyone's pipe dream.

Yes, you are really worse of than fixers. Not.

Oh, I believe we are. You know what else? I don't think you even have a clue about 'crats. I'm not surprised. What I think you are is an unhappy fixer who is upset that they didn't get exactly the love they wanted this patch. It doesn't matter to you that they've said they're not done with you. It doesn't matter that we're not getting an immediate overhaul..just changes down the road. They're not even sure they can DO all of these things yet. And what bothers me is that you're oblivious to the fact that you're still HUGELY viable both solo and in groups. Solo, you've got great conceal skills (yes, conceal is being fixed), you can get to your missions a LOT easier with better vehicle skills+run buffs, and any Heal Over Time nano will reduce downtime and extend the duration of any fight.

Weapon skill wise, you have buffs that increase both your smg and your burst, that stack with general nanos. You also have damage bonus nanos that are always fun at any party. Now, what you DO need taken care of are your nano skills, and more variety in weapon choices. How do I know? I actually PLAY a fixer. I can rant about them just as much because I PLAY one. You, my friend, appear to be little more than a troll trying to divert attention to your class in a "CRAT SPECIFIC THREAD. Look up top there, binky...ENVISIONED BUREAUCRAT CHANGES. Not ARE 'CRATS BETTER OR WORSE THAN FIXERS?. You really should be more selective on where you post the drivel you come up with. Better yet...go make your 'crat so when we're the uber gods you're afraid we'll become, you can be on that train as well. Isn't that why you picked the fixer?

Some people...sheesh!

[____________Greystar]

Originally posted by Kaine
My aren't YOU confused.

No, I know what I am talking about, I talk about "high" levels, only "high" levels, you talk about mid to low levels, Fixers are ok at low to mid levels, Crats are not, Fixers they are fun to play there, I am NOT comparing mid level crats/fixers, I am comparing "high" level play.

Read my first sentence again carefully, notice the word "high" ?

"I hope that Fixers who are even worse off at high levels than crats, get something useful too finally"

When I say high, I mean high, I play a level 140 fixer.

HELLLOOO!!! Exactly HOW many mausser toting people do you see walking around these days?

On high levels ? Only fixers and no one else, as maussers suck at "high" levels, NOT mid/low levels, maussers are very good at mid/low levels, I talk about "high" levels only. And you don't see many Fixers who stick to the game after level 100.

Hook up with a trader/agent, plus your own smg buffs, and you guys are walking around with maussers twice+ your level. I've seen MAJOR damage come out of a mausser. Sure, go vektor if you want. It doesn't matter. Fixers are KNOWN for their nice damage skills.

My highest level own uber SMG/Burst buff is +8/+7, you cannot overequip maussers double your level, as there is only one burst buff and you won't know any soldier high enough for Riot Control until you are around level 80-120.

Do you even PLAY a 'crat? Our roots get resisted just as much as yours. The root problems extend to EVERY class...not just yours. And anyone that uses an area root is asking for a wipeout.

The QL of the Root is the key, our nano skills are dark blue, that means you will always use way better roots than a fixer. Depending on the mob type, some will resist area roots very good, some won't, that is trial and error, borgs are rooted nicely.
Your single root will always work if you use them according to your level, my root is ql 90, I am level 140.

LOL! What crack are YOU smoking? In order to DO damage, we'd have to use a DB skill, as pistols are so borked! And even if we went Vektor, you're forgetting that we don't have a special (can anyone say BURST...oh, a fixer can...they have that as a nicely colored skill) with the vektor. Maussers have burst, mmmMK?

It is a fact that a player level 120 with maxed DB shotgun skill deals an average damage nearly double mine. I play day by day by day alongside vector users. It is a fact. Again I am NOT talking about mid level gameplay, I am talking about "high" levels.

My maussers burst (ql 191), 740 smg skill is capped at 1500 against red mobs, my crits at 1300. A ql 170-180 vector crits against the very same mobs for highest 3.4k. Additionally with maxed out ranged init at the title cap under 150 a vector has higher shooting speed than my mausser. Those are the facts at "high" levels.

Oh yes...our pets. Those lovely creatures that run around everywhere, aggroeing mobs from all over in missions.

Oh yeah...that lovely charm that lasts about 10 seconds, gets resisted TONS, and lately has had the usefullness of teats on a bull.

I did not say the changes are not needed, crat pets suck compared to other pet classes, all I said is, that you do have additional backup, whereas a fixer only has his Mausser, and no other damage or safety (tanking pets) options.

Why don't you do yourself a favor here and check out the nano lists on Hackersquest. You obviously don't have a clue what 'crat nanos are. Otherwise, you'd know that the spread between our offensive DD's is pathetic. Often, we'll have to wait 15 levels to get a new DD, only to outgrow it in three levels.

I havent gotten a single new spell of any line in the last 28 levels. And fixers don't have any damage spells.

Solo, you've got great conceal skills (yes, conceal is being fixed),

My conceal buff nano is +40. Agents with 1000 conceal buffed can't even sneak undetected, but sure, I put in IPs there, right.

you can get to your missions a LOT easier with better vehicle skills+run buffs, and any Heal Over Time nano will reduce downtime and extend the duration of any fight.

Everyone at "high" levels has a yalmaha, lowest yalmaha is ql 30 and needs a whooping 80 air vehicle skill. My Meta got her plane at level 17 into the air, that plane needs 115 air vehicle skill, it is dark blue for her.

Weapon skill wise, you have buffs that increase both your smg and your burst, that stack with general nanos. You also have damage bonus nanos that are always fun at any party.

My smg buff is +8, burst +7. That is really powerful, right.
My highest damage augment at this time is +20, at my average damage of 400-500 and mobs not grey that got 10000-500000 HP, that helps alot, right.

You, my friend, appear to be little more than a troll trying to divert attention to your class in a "CRAT SPECIFIC THREAD.

What do you want ? I said "Sounds really cool, go for it.", whatis wrong with that ?


Oh yes, I added, I quote again, "I hope that Fixers who are even worse off at high levels than crats, get something useful too finally"

And then some of you went off to bash me for the fact that at high levels mausser using fixers are weaker than good developed crats.

Some people...sheesh!

Yeah, I agree

[haavarst]

what im wondering is:

Wich honorable Crat are you comparing yourself to???

I didnt know there existed any crats lvl140+!!

I thought dfield was one of the highest lvl Crats with Humor . On the 15th of Novemer he was lvl 106.

Ive heard rumors that there exists two other crats 100+...

How many fixers are lvl140+? they greatly outnumber Crats 140+ i would assume, since ive actually seen fixers 140+!

If theese numbers are correct, I fail to see how you can make any form of comparism between fixers and crats 140+, and you are posting fiction and sould post your rants in the RP threads wich you can find here!!!

If i am wrong, I deeply appologize , and ask you with tremendous humility:

Please tell us wich Crats you have been teaming with?

For the rest of this thread:
Please keep the discussion on topic! I am really tired of reading through opinions of ppl that have no clue what so ever they are talking about

[_________________Dmv]

Please tell me the names of these "high level Crats" you have done this comparison with....I really would like to know.


Since as a Crat from the beginning of the game I know most if not all the Crats over lvl 75.....


By the way you can count them on about one hand.....

I will not sit here and compare your class to ours etc because that is imo silly. This is a thread dedicated to some improvements in a gimped class. Please start a new thread for your Class comparison and class envy issues.

[Beria]

Overall, I am quite pleased with the proposed changes. My detailed comments are in italics below:

From In Progress as of November 21:

Bureaucrat Changes
The Bureaucrat XP gain line bonus has been increased to 3, 6 and 9%.
New single-target psychosis nano for the Bureaucrat: Contemplation. Also increased the duration of the bureaucrat's single-target psychosis nanos by 40%.
All psychosis (mezz) nanos will now play their hit effect continuously for the duration of the nanos, or until it is removed (such as by being attacked). This should make it much easier to determine which monsters are under the effects of psychosis and which are not.
The first of the bureaucrat Motivational speeches are in. This set increases general offensive and defensive abilities slightly.
Made some changes to the bureaucrat pets: Increased speed of attack and increased AC and evade skills.

I think these are all good changes, especially the mezz nanos displaying their effect continously and the increase in pet abilities. The Motivational speeches are a really cool idea but I'd like more details on what they actually do.

From Envisioned as of November 21:

Charm
The way charm works is going to get a small overhaul. First, understand that there were always meant to be 2 charm lines for the bureaucrats – one with ‘low’ resist, and one with ‘high’ resist. The high resist charm was meant to allow the bureaucrat to charm a second monster, albeit with some difficulty. That hasn’t worked out too well in the past, but is still the plan. We’ll call the low resist charm the stable charm, and the high resist charm the unstable charm.

I always wondered why there were two charm lines. Never used the high resist line in the past since it wasn't worth the little extra duration. This change seems to make sense.

The first charm change is that, for both charm lines, a percentage of the bureaucrat’s Psychology skill is going to be added to the attack roll, above and beyond the existing check. So, the higher your Psychology skill, the better chance you have of landing your charm. Second, the duration of the stable charm is going to be dramatically increased. Roughly every 50 levels, it will be increased by 5 minutes. So, a level 200 charm would last for roughly 20 minutes.

I think it is a good idea to get some use out of psychology, but a couple of things need to be considered. First, since psychology has had no real use until now, no one has raised this skill. So a lot of 'crats are going to have to spend a lot of IPs to increase this skill. This is going to be very difficult given that IPs are very tight for 'crats. (IP redistribution or some other compensation?) Second, I would like to know if the better chance of landing your charm is a result of lower the psyche check or lowering the resist or both. Increasing the duration of the stable charm is a great idea. I think this has been suggested a number of times before, but I like the idea of some kind of a message informing us of when a charm is about to wear off (maybe just for the stable charm).

The duration of the unstable charm will be slightly extended, but not in the same way. It will still have the same, short, duration it currently has, but will have a random element to the duration added. So, you will know the minimum time the unstable charm will last, but not know exactly how long it will last.

Why not, a little risk never hurt anyone.

We are also going to revamp the way mind control works so that mind controlled monsters are treated as pets in terms of what they can attack (the change where they cannot attack family members will be going away).

This is a very badly needed change.

New XP loss reduction nanos
The bureaucrat will gain a line of nanos that let them reduce the amount of XP lost upon death. These will be a short-duration emergency nano (probably around 30 seconds in duration). They are meant to be used in the "OMG OMG OMG I’m going to die! Buff me, buff me!" situation. They will be single-target nanos, not team versions.

I like this. It would be a drag fumbling this nano the moment before you or a team member die, but that is always the chance you take. I think this will help make 'crats a welcome addition to teams. I would like to know how much the XP loss reduction is. I think you will need to reduce the loss by more than 50% of the XP gained since the last save. My suggestion would be to make this a quick, low NCU, moderate cost nano. Don't make it high NCU because people may not keep enough NCU free on the off chance that they need it for this nano. And make if quick so we can cast it in time to help our teammates/selves.

Pet Taunting
The bureaucrat will gain a new nano that allows them to increase the taunting ability of their pet (but only their robot pet, not any mind controlled pets). This will make it more likely that the pet will tank more often – NOT that it will tank 100% of the time.

Good.

Speech nanos
There will be some new lines of buffs and debuffs, affecting the area around the bureaucrat. Motivational speeches will do things such as increase the chance of a critical hit, or increase nano AC. De-motivational speeches will do things such as lower nano AC, lower the chance of a critical hit, or reduce current nano points. Like the engineer nanos, the effect that is placed on other people will have a very low NCU cost; the buff on the bureaucrat will have the normal NCU cost.

I really like this. See comments above.

Pets, part 2
We are also going to look into the possibility of giving the bureaucrat pets some limited nano ability. With the existing pet AI, this may or may not be possible. What is envisioned is that the pets will get some combat buffs like the enforcer’s Challenger line of buffs. They won’t use them all the time, however, just some of the time (sort of a "Woot! My pet buffed.")

Good.

Paperwork
A set of paperwork tradeskills is going to be added. (More info coming)

I'd need to see more information on this, but I like the idea of getting some tradeskill stuff. However, please use the skills that 'crats would currently be inclined to raise like computer literacy. I think you could tie in the paperwork tradeskills with the briefcase (see my comments below).

Suits and Briefcase
Some special items are going to be made for the bureaucrat. Special, executive suit-and-tie items will be available, as will a suitcase. The suit will give some buff effects (such as increasing psychology and max nano energy, for example). The briefcase will allow the bureaucrat to open their personal bank from any location. How the bureaucrat will obtain these items has not been finalized.

Call me vain, but I am really excited about this. I would like to suggest that executive suits come in a variety of colours (nice black, grey, blue suits for us Omni-Tek execs, a plaid sports jacket for the Clanners) since we don't all want to look alike. I would also like to see it go in the back slot over other armor. If it has some AC as well as the psychology/other buffs I would considered replacing my nano cloak. If the suit is going to be composed of multiple pieces like the existing Omni executive clothes, don't make people have to choose between the clothes or armor or else give each piece AC comparable to say nano or waitt armour. Please make this bureaucrat only to help with recognition.

I like the briefcase idea, but would make a few suggestions. First, as has been already mentioned, accessing the bank by using a briefcase seems like more of a fixer type of thing. How about making the briefcase the tool that you use for the paperwork trade skill? (The harried bureaucrat rumages through his/her briefcase looking for Form 1029848-B in order to ...). Second, the briefcase should NOT be a weapon. I know it seems tempting to make it a 1-hand blunt weapon but I doubt if many existing 'crats have raised any melee-type skills. Third, make it equipable in either hand. I'd like to be able to run around with a briefcase in one hand any my trusty pistol (cough cough) in the other. Finally, because I am vain as noted above, how about a few different styles of briefcase. You know, the nice black leather or shiny alumimum for Omni and a green nylon bag for the Clanners.

Finally, here is the new design for how mind control is going to operate:

Mind Control Design
When a monster is mind controlled, it needs to be considered exactly the same as a normal pet in terms of what it can attack. This includes it being able to attack friends (both on the same side and in the same NPC family).
When the mind control on the pet wears off, the following needs to happen:
The combat it is engaged in stops. It will stop attacking, and if the thing it is fighting is a monster, that monster should also stop attacking.
The hate lists of these two monsters are modified in the following ways: assume that there is a monster A, a charmed monster B and the player Z who charmed monster B. If A and B are fighting and the mind control times out, the entry for B on A’s hate list is removed, and B then inherits A’s hate list – except for the hate B may have towards Z (B keeps its own hate towards Z rather than inheriting A’s hate towards Z). If B is not in a fight when the mind control times out, then don’t do anything to its hate list. We do it this way so that when the mind control times out, B will most likely attack Z, but can still be taunted off Z; while A goes back to fighting whoever has annoyed it the most. This means that at the end of the mind control, B and A will have the same hate list, with the exception that B will also have some additional hate towards Z.
Example: players are X, Y and Z (monsters are still A and B, B mind controlled by Z). A’s hate list looks like: X=1000, Y=1500, Z=200, B=3000. B’s hate list looks like: A=2800, Z=1800. The mind control on B wears off, and A and B stop fighting. A’s hate list then looks like: X=1000, Y=1500, Z=200. B’s hate list looks like: X=1000, Y=1500, Z=1800.

Ouch, my brain hurts.

Any damage that is done by a mind controlled monster needs to be counted towards the caster in terms of who is recognized as getting the kill on a monster (both for loot and XP purposes).

Good stuff.

Mind controlled monsters do not follow through zone lines.

Okay.

It needs to be possible to have more than one mind controlled monster at the same time.

Definately.

Finally a few things that didn't make it on the list:

Player-Created Missions
I would also like to suggest that player-created missions be added as a bureaucrat specialty. This could go a long way in improving role playing.

Direct-Damage Nanos
I don't have a problem with the existing direct damage nanos, but there are some mysterious gaps between some nanos. For example, I have been using Monofilament Whip forever and I still have a way to go before I can use Searing Bolt. Sure there is Stinging Reminder in there, but it is no better than Mono Whip.

Beria
Level 64 Omni-Tek Bureaucrat
RK1

[_______________Kaine]

First of all..what Haavarst said:

What high levels are you talking about?? The highest one I know is Teedboye, who's 117. I've talked to him about life at that level as a 'crat; it's funny how many of his complaints are exactly the same complaints I have at mid level. What we both agree on is the fact that 'crats are played when you want the real challenge..the ultimate gimp. When the fixer/agent/enf/sold/ma/adv premier classes just get TOO old and stale because you've done all the mission running and bored yourself to death...you've grouped and killed stuff way beyond your level. You bored yourself of the game too soon...that's when you go to the 'crat.

We all joke about there being maybe 10 of us in the whole game. The truth is, we lie...there's probably about 100 of us active. How many fixers are there active? Now, what are the levels of those fixers?

You ask why I bash you? Because your argument is conjecture...it's all guesswork. There are no high level crats to compare yourself to.

A good example would be your argument about vektors. You bring up ranged init...wait, ranged init is DB to us. So, on top of keeping up with at least 4 nano skills, base abilities, evades, treatment skills, and now psyche...we have to add on ranged init to speed up using a DB shotgun skill for a weapon with no specials (thank god..those are db to us as well)?

Sure...everybody has a yalmaha? I don't. I can't afford one. Unlike other people, I didn't cheat and exploit to put in godly implants. I wear what I can use legally. I can't mission run, and don't. If I do a mission, I do it straight up like the game was made for me to. I don't cut corners, I don't look for the cheap way out. I clean out every mission 100% and take my time with it. I'm not interested in one hit killing mobs and owning everything I come across. And you know what? I don't think it's viable for me to solo throughout the entire game. I realize there will always be mobs I can't kill, no matter what level I am. I'm going to need friends.

Part of your argument is taking your buffs and making them look small against some VERY high level mobs that nobody should be able to solo. You're also comparing us using a DB skill to use a weapon vs you using a weapon skill that's green to you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you could be using that DB skill too, right? But you won't...you'd be giving up burst..and that's a big no no for a fixer, isn't it? You're comparing a vektor with no specials vs a mausser with a special that recycles about twice a fight...more in those uber mobs you're talking about. Sure, the vektor crits more...the mausser has uber burst. Oh, and I see lots of high level engineers using maussers as well.

Oh, and my point is still valid. We can uberize our pistol skill all we want..we're NOT going to get the same damage as any other class out there, and we're not going to be able to overequip most of our levels like the fixer is able to...trader or no trader.

Back to the root issues, eh? I've already said that fixer nano skills are pathetic and need to be changed. That doesn't take away from the fact that roots get resisted way too much, no matter what ql you're using. And the "slide" thing is just annoying and pathetic.

And pets don't tank..and they're not good backup. I will die long before my pet does any kind of damage to the mob. And I don't have the benefit of a HoT to help keep me alive long enough for it too.

No, you don't have any damage spells. You have burst and a green skill to support a high damage weapon. Most of your damage goes through. Melee nanos get resisted alot. My drill missile is supposed to do over 200 damage. I average about half of that. I do slightly better at 140dmg using performance review. I've got a LOOONG way to go for monofilament. Once I get it, I'll outlive it's usefulness in 3-5 levels. Then it's a LOOONG way to go till the next one. You can't convince me that we compare even remotely to an NT that dishes out bucketloads of fast casting damage for less mana. But I don't gripe them...that's what they do.

As for the conceal...I never said you were the masters of it..but you have it. And you have buffs to support it. I don't. I have no choice but to face each and every mob head on.

And finally...the message I responded to had nothing about you saying anything positive about the 'crat changes. The one I responded to was all about how the fixer was more "gimped" than the 'crat...a debate I can easily go toe to toe with you on. After all...I AM the voice of gimp!

[haavarst]

I would like to suggest that executive suits come in a variety of colours (nice black, grey, blue suits for us Omni-Tek execs, a plaid sports jacket for the Clanners)
...
the nice black leather or shiny alumimum for Omni and a green nylon bag for the Clanners.

LOL!.. glad im not a clanner crat with you as my personal desiger, Beria!!

Well.. i hate to say this, since i really liked the idea of the briefcase beeing the bank... buuut... the function of it sounds like something the fixers should have... *sigh*. But i do insist that the Crats get to keep the briefcase itself but with a different purpose/function.

How about making it some sort of paper filing device.. but it is ment for paperwork-tradeskills. A nice tradeskill would be to make "insurance-forms". We could travel to the hunting areas to sell insurance to the ppl hunting. To file the insurance we have to put it in the briefcase. The insurance papers should have Quality as everyting else. a Q50 form could take out an insurance on a lvl50m player. Could be quite a nice thing!

With this filing device the possibilities of new paper-tradeskills could be near limitless. How about leting crats file
-Marriage License
-Divorce Papers
.
.
.

Of course there MUST be limits. The effects or advantages of this type of tradeskill should not be so good as there is a MUST to find a crat... like having to have a drivers license to det into a car and only crats can issue them... that would be _way_ to much.

And the briefcase (filing device) MUST be crat only.. not any FP-agents whopping it out at will.

To limit the benefits of crats on such a device, I would accept and even recomend that Crats could NOT file papers on them selves.

[____________Greystar]

Of course there are no crats level 140+, I just compared some basics. Most crats quit way before high levels, because they suck at low/mid levels, and one day there was this insane pistol nerf...
I never said anything different, geez.

What I said was, and what you kindly ignore of course, this

- a generic level 120 player regardless of profession with dark blue shotgun skill, for example a Crat, outdamages me with his shotgun alone. Fact. Teamed with players that use vectors.
Fixers using maussers deal the least damage at high levels.

- A player that uses higher QL root spells than me, as in all professions that can root other than fixers, gets less resisted than me with my <ql 100 root, period.

- A pet, even one that sucks like the crats, adds some damage, and gets aggroed for some time at least, so it helps more than no pet, anyone want to say anything against that ?

- A DD spell does more damage than no DD spell, anyone wants to say something against that too ?


In clan is one semi active fixer that is higher than me, Ayeka. In Omni I don't know, maybe LLandi if he still plays, I highly doubt that though. Other than that, I bet what you saw were mostly agents in false profession.

And I did not start anything, you only rushed in and called me crazy when I said fixers at high levels are worse off than crats.

I said "Sounds really cool, go for it. " to the needed crat changes.