"Release Me Now", root/snare removal discussion

I would like to open discussion of this nano and didn't see any other threads about it. I don't currently have any dog in this fight so don't take offense.

1. "Release Me Now" vs. future roots and snares

Will "Release Me Now" remain in it's current form if/when crowd control is rebalanced in general? The original rebalance documents have all roots and snares moving to extremely temporary measures, for instance in the nano document the top Fixer root/snare/aoe snare have durations of 7s/15s/10s respectively, as well as cooldowns. With those changes "Release Me Now" seems like overkill.

2. Is 100% immunity fair, even for a short duration?
Few other tools offer such large immunity for such little sacrifice. It already removes the root/snare entirely, does it require the immunity in addition? MoR + "Release Me Now" provide 30s of complete immunity to roots and snares, in addition to passive immunity (up to 80% for keeper and 45% for shade) and nanoresist. Potentially unbalancing, especially in a duel situation, against a profession that needs to keep the opponent at a distance. Would no immunity and a much shorter cooldown be more fair to both sides (f.ex. removal once per 45s).

3a. Investment/return compared to other removal tools
Compared to other root/snare removal tools*, "Release Me Now" requires minimal effort and is more effective - only 100 nanoskills and it completely removes the offending CC. An MA's "Upon a Wave of Summer" requires significant IP investment. Removal perks require...perks. Fixer instant removal nano requires nanoskills 17x as high. And finally almost all "classic" removal nanos are level locked, meaning they are always extremely weak against CC at given levels because the roots/snares themselves are not level locked. Also will professions like Bureaucrat/Fixer/Agent get their removal tools consolidated? Having separate snare and root removals is an annoyance.

3b. Investment/return compared to other immunity tools
Compared to other temporary immunities*, "Release Me Now" requires minimal effort and is more effective - only 100 nanoskills and it offers 15s of 100% immunity. Bureaucrat immunity provides 10s of 40% immunity with a 10s cast time. MP's SS provides 20s of 60% immunity (TL7 only). Spatial Displacement's Great Purge provides 20s of 100% immunity at a cost of 10 perks.

4. Enforcer/Soldier inclusion
Why is enforcer included? Their ability to break root/snares is already superior to every other melee profession. If Enforcers, who can escape CC every 15s with rage get access, why not MAs, who can only escape every 60s?

Why is soldier included with the 3 melee professions on this nano? Why are they somehow more deserving than the other professions with no CC removal tools (Doctor, Engineer)? If soldier gets access for no especially evident reason, why not just make it a general nano? Even professions who are supposed to have mastery over CC like Bureacrats would find an instant total removal tool useful.




*Except the new agent escape nanos, apparently.

Definitely worthy of a second look.

GreaterThanBlack, while generally a critical oaf, eloquently said earlier today that roots/snares should be balanced by

1. durations
2. chance to break on damage

Which I think is a far better method than blanket immunities.

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Originally Posted by Louderer789

(up to 80% for keeper and 45% for shade)

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I would love to have enough perks on my Keeper and Shade to actually perk Spatial Displacement, but sadly that's not even in the realm of possibilities without detrimental sacrifices.


With the coming changes all CC should be removable with 1 FM stim.
I would personally like to see a personal lockout if you get Rooted/Snared which gives you ~15s immunity from being resnared such that everyone can clear CC with 1 stim, then not have to worry for the next ~12s (lag, FM execution time, noticing you're CC'd)

If CC is going down this road of being completely pointless, any evade class the relies on it is going to need serious buffs.

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Originally Posted by Wakizaka

I would love to have enough perks on my Keeper and Shade to actually perk Spatial Displacement, but sadly that's not even in the realm of possibilities without detrimental sacrifices.

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No one can anymore, since the addition of Hit and Run for Fixer (although the argument that Fixers used to get SD "for free" because they lacked any other useful place to put the perks is a pretty bad one). The fact that you aren't willing suggests roots and snares aren't that troublesome. Although personally I think SD should be shrunk down to a 5 point line, with 5% root/snare immunity per perk and with Purge 1 at SD2, Purge 2 at SD4 and Great Purge at SD5 (open to all professions).

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With the coming changes all CC should be removable with 1 FM stim.
I would personally like to see a personal lockout if you get Rooted/Snared which gives you ~15s immunity from being resnared such that everyone can clear CC with 1 stim, then not have to worry for the next ~12s (lag, FM execution time, noticing you're CC'd)

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So...roots will last 7 seconds, be instantly removable by everyone, and then can't be attempted again? The immunity would only make any sense at all if roots landed every time and lasted the duration. I'd like for my fixer to have 20s immunity to aim shots after having his HP debuffed 30% by an agent, but it would be silly to ask for that.

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Originally Posted by Louderer789

The fact that you aren't willing suggests roots and snares aren't that troublesome.

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Actually I've tried dropping Bio-Cocoon, Blessing, and Holy Mark in favour of SD; I never tried dropping Reaver because of obvious reasons; and all three of those options get you killed faster than if you don't have SD perked. My Shade ran around without TR perked for ages with SD perked instead, and some other combinations, but ended up lacking enough killing power for a lot of people and actually preferred 2+ NR perks and only 4 SD perks instead for surviving being CC'd to death.

Roots & snares are troublesome, and unfortunately the loss of perks for Keepers & Shades in order to perk decently into Anti-CC leaves them either toothless or even easier to kill.

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Originally Posted by Wakizaka

Roots & snares are troublesome, and unfortunately the loss of perks for Keepers & Shades in order to perk decently into Anti-CC leaves them either toothless or even easier to kill.

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You already get a 35% immunity to Snare and Roots with a 20s cycling reduction from this. Which is the same as having SD9 perked at all times anyway.

I fail to see the problem.

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Originally Posted by Raggy

You already get a 35% immunity to Snare and Roots with a 20s cycling reduction from this. Which is the same as having SD9 perked at all times anyway.

I fail to see the problem.

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Enervate has never been great, although I always had it running. With 18.7, it will be much better as roots/snares don't last as long as the reduction every 20s is a joke when you can get snared for 20+ minutes. Also, even with 2.3K NR on my Keeper and Enervate running, I was still getting rooted/snared by anything with more than 1k nanoskills.

The real problem here is the insanity level proliferation of NANO based roots/snares vs the relatively balanced PERK/MA attack/WEAPON PROC based system.

Consider: If you removed every snare/root nano from game, what would be left?

Agent: tranquilizer (max -1200RS, 25s

Crat: Confound with Rules (-900 RS, 22s)

Engi/advy/enf/Shade: Full frontal: snare 40s, -600RS) but TS vs NR

Advy/enf/Shade: Confinement (root 40s) again TS vs NR

Enf: Crush bone -400RS 8s

MA: touch of sai fung (-1000RS, 15s), 300 UWoS (-800RS, 3s), 300 flower of life (-550, 10s), Shen (-500, 40s),

General: Grafts, cherry blossom/Ice arrows of Alb special arrows (-200 for 15s)

I am probably missing a few perk actions, but I think I've got most of them.

Basically all these have very short durations, and you have to be very careful when you attempt to use them in order that they land - i.e. they are not spammable.

Whereas, nanos on the other hand are spammable, are retardedly long durations - like look at the 3s duration on UWoS compared to spin nanoweb which has like a 27 minute duration... who designed that? like WTF. Honestly, UWoS is probably a bit short - I'd increase it to like 12s or something, but generally speaking the bigger the modifier, the shorter the duration, but NOTHING in game should have a movement impairing modifier that lasts more than 1 minute at the absolute maximum.

Why?

Because combat encounters that exceed 1 minute are BORING.

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Originally Posted by Raggy

You already get a 35% immunity to Snare and Roots with a 20s cycling reduction from this. Which is the same as having SD9 perked at all times anyway.

I fail to see the problem.

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With statements like these, I can see that you've never played endgame Keeper in pvp.

The enervate 35% doesn't help much, if at all. Stack it with SD10 and have 70%+ root/snare resist and I'm still constantly getting rooted by crats, nts, fixers, traders - gladly the perk actions help me a lot but its still huge sacrifice to perk that line. So no, even 70+% resist isnt really worth it at the current state of roots and how easy they land ANYWAY regardless of that big resist.

This whole original post seems out of place, too. Have you actually had long time experience playing melee toons in pvp? I have pvp'd extensively with MA, shade and keeper and this whole suggestion is absurd. I suggest you to go play those profs in battlestation for 5+ years and you'll probably laugh to your very own suggestion. Not trying to be hostile towards you, but damn at the absurd OPd'ness of spammable roots/snares against melee toons. It's ridiculous at the moment, and with that cool down Release me Now wont offer much of help to melee classes (even after the proposed changes, which might come in 5 years or so?). In fact I'd even suggest getting some more tools for melee classes to battle this massive, massive disadvantage against ranged classes.

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Originally Posted by jooo

STUFF

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My Keeper is 214 and I PvPd on him an awful lot back at 150 when S10 was a thing and then at 200 when S10 wasn't a thing and I can honestly say that while roots and snares were annoying they are no where near as bad as you make them out to be. The only problematic things were the durations on some snares.

Also are you trying to tell me that roots and snares are landing reliably on you with 2k+ NR and an innate 70% resist?

Because if you are, you can stop being so rediculous right now. Go actually play a Prof that has roots and snares and try landing them reliably on an SD char. Ontop of the fact that methods to counter these things already exist in abundance.

The grass isn't always greener.

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Originally Posted by Raggy

My Keeper is 214 and I PvPd on him an awful lot back at 150 when S10 was a thing and then at 200 when S10 wasn't a thing and I can honestly say that while roots and snares were annoying they are no where near as bad as you make them out to be. The only problematic things were the durations on some snares.

Also are you trying to tell me that roots and snares are landing reliably on you with 2k+ NR and an innate 70% resist?

Because if you are, you can stop being so rediculous right now. Go actually play a Prof that has roots and snares and try landing them reliably on an SD char. Ontop of the fact that methods to counter these things already exist in abundance.

The grass isn't always greener.

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I was thinking about how current roots are OP just yesterday while trying to catch some NT with my 150 adv in BS. It doesn't take any skill (just decent setup) to land unbreakable root with 4min 48sec duration that takes 4 ql175 FM stims to remove it to render even the best melee toons completely useless. High NR doesn't really help because it'll land eventually and by the time you remove it using your FM stims your opponent has already casted new one on you. Also SD is not always an option, especially at lower levels, where perk actions are scarce. Roots and snares in its current form are simply OP'd and anyone who advocates this has clearly biased opinion.

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Originally Posted by Scottik

I was thinking about how current roots are OP just yesterday while trying to catch some NT with my 150 adv in BS. It doesn't take any skill (just decent setup) to land unbreakable root with 4min 48sec duration that takes 4 ql175 FM stims to remove it to render even the best melee toons completely useless. High NR doesn't really help because it'll land eventually and by the time you remove it using your FM stims your opponent has already casted new one on you. Also SD is not always an option, especially at lower levels, where perk actions are scarce. Roots and snares in its current form are simply OP'd and anyone who advocates this has clearly biased opinion.

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When it takes me at least 10 attempts to land my best root while fully drained at 220 against someone with no perks in SD and maxed NR. I find someone claiming that they get constantly rooted with 70% innate resistance quite frankly a load of BS.

Also that NT isn't doing any damage to you as he spams the root in vain against an Advy on /follow. Also assuming you're a Melee Advy because a Ranged Advy would have no issue chasing down and killing an NT outside of NS, to which I say, that's your own fault.

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Originally Posted by Raggy

When it takes me at least 10 attempts to land my best root while fully drained at 220 against someone with no perks in SD and maxed NR. I find someone claiming that they get constantly rooted with 70% innate resistance quite frankly a load of BS.

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First of all I'm not arguing how easy or not is to land root/snare but what ridiculous duration it has. Sure, lower the attack check down to reasonable levels but don't make it last more than couple of seconds. Besides, I made reply to your previous post where you're mentioning tl5 melee chars specifically.

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Originally Posted by Raggy

Also that NT isn't doing any damage to you as he spams the root in vain against an Advy on /follow.

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Yes, he can. FM stim has execution time of 1s with 5s recharge. And I have to use 4 of them. Which gives NT precisely 24s time window and since his roots are instant, it's very likely he'll have time to cast some debuffs and nukes in between. And it's not like he has to spam root this whole time, it just doesn't happen. And if some other player of opposite faction comes along I'm just as useful as shooting target.

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Originally Posted by Raggy

Also assuming you're a Melee Advy because a Ranged Advy would have no issue chasing down and killing an NT outside of NS, to which I say, that's your own fault.

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What? So I pick one of "legit" setups for adv and it's my fault? Clearly it's not root mechanics that need fixing, everyone should just roll ranged profession from now on I guess...

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Originally Posted by Scottik

First of all I'm not arguing how easy or not is to land root/snare but what ridiculous duration it has. Sure, lower the attack check down to reasonable levels but don't make it last more than couple of seconds. Besides, I made reply to your previous post where you're mentioning tl5 melee chars specifically.

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The durations ARE being lowered in 18.7 along with a plethora of new methods of removing roots and snares. And as I said before, my Keeper had little trouble with snares and roots at the levels I mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Scottik

Yes, he can. FM stim has execution time of 1s with 5s recharge. And I have to use 4 of them. Which gives NT precisely 24s time window and since his roots are instant, it's very likely he'll have time to cast some debuffs and nukes in between. And it's not like he has to spam root this whole time, it just doesn't happen. And if some other player of opposite faction comes along I'm just as useful as shooting target.

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The best root the NT has access to at this level has a 1s cast cap time and a 4.33s recharge. Meaning he would have to stand still for 1s to cast and then be unable to damage you for 4.33s, more than enough time for you to counter it since it isn't going to land 100% of the time since the checks are pretty stupid. During all this time of you being rooted the NT has done nothing else, whereas if you were Ranged you would have just killed him with perks at a distance.

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Originally Posted by Scottik

What? So I pick one of "legit" setups for adv and it's my fault? Clearly it's not root mechanics that need fixing, everyone should just roll ranged profession from now on I guess...

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I don't go into PvP crying about how I can't damage anyone as an MA Trader because my AR is too low. I swapped back to Shotgun so I could PvP reliably. Don't fob the blame onto something else because you're using a suboptimal build in PvP

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Originally Posted by Raggy

The durations ARE being lowered in 18.7 along with a plethora of new methods of removing roots and snares. And as I said before, my Keeper had little trouble with snares and roots at the levels I mentioned.

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I know they are and I'm glad they are being changed, however I made reply to your post where you indicated that roots/snares in its CURRENT form are very little or no issue at all, which is simply not true in my opinion. If your keeper has no issue with them, good for you, however my experience differs dramatically. And apparentelly many other players and devs as well share similar opinion, hence the changes.

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Originally Posted by Raggy

The best root the NT has access to at this level has a 1s cast cap time and a 4.33s recharge. Meaning he would have to stand still for 1s to cast and then be unable to damage you for 4.33s, more than enough time for you to counter it since it isn't going to land 100% of the time since the checks are pretty stupid. During all this time of you being rooted the NT has done nothing else, whereas if you were Ranged you would have just killed him with perks at a distance.

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True my fault, I didn't take recharge into consideration, however in reality they always have time to cast NR debuff blind or nuke in between. Or trader landing his drain(s). Or fixer just waiting till my DoF runs out so he can alpha me.

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Originally Posted by Raggy

I don't go into PvP crying about how I can't damage anyone as an MA Trader because my AR is too low. I swapped back to Shotgun so I could PvP reliably. Don't fob the blame onto something else because you're using a suboptimal build in PvP

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That's logical fallacy. MA Trader has no official support for MA toolset. For example If I picked ranged energy weapon on my adv and I'd start complaining about lack of AR, then yes, your point would be valid. But 1he is fully supported weapon choice for adv, why should it be excluded from mass PvP? And what about other melee profs that have no ranged option? Should they just switch to ranged too?

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Originally Posted by Louderer789

3a. Investment/return compared to other removal tools
Compared to other root/snare removal tools*, "Release Me Now" requires minimal effort and is more effective - only 100 nanoskills and it completely removes the offending CC. An MA's "Upon a Wave of Summer" requires significant IP investment. Removal perks require...perks. Fixer instant removal nano requires nanoskills 17x as high. And finally almost all "classic" removal nanos are level locked, meaning they are always extremely weak against CC at given levels because the roots/snares themselves are not level locked. Also will professions like Bureaucrat/Fixer/Agent get their removal tools consolidated? Having separate snare and root removals is an annoyance.

3b. Investment/return compared to other immunity tools
Compared to other temporary immunities*, "Release Me Now" requires minimal effort and is more effective - only 100 nanoskills and it offers 15s of 100% immunity. Bureaucrat immunity provides 10s of 40% immunity with a 10s cast time. MP's SS provides 20s of 60% immunity (TL7 only). Spatial Displacement's Great Purge provides 20s of 100% immunity at a cost of 10 perks.

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You forgot http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=205443 :p! Understandable though because nobody -ever- used that nano probably thanks to insane attack and recharge times.

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Originally Posted by DarkerThanBlack

You forgot http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=205443 :p! Understandable though because nobody -ever- used that nano probably thanks to insane attack and recharge times.

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I've used it.. =/

NR and Root/snare resist are borked anyways, on my MP i have 3,1k NR and 75% root/snare resist with SS running and roots still land quite often when some pesky fixer is aoe rooting/snaring my pets.

These low durations are highly welcomed imo.

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Originally Posted by Burgly

NR and Root/snare resist are borked anyways, on my MP i have 3,1k NR and 75% root/snare resist with SS running and roots still land quite often when some pesky fixer is aoe rooting/snaring my pets.

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That's only because you don't notice all the times you've countered or resisted them.