Perk Actions Early on with up-scaling effects

I dunno. I'm not convinced. I've seen several posts which allude to the relative strength of players. However, as I recall, the person making the post had a forlornly adverse setup. like, not even QL 200 implants at 150, and no particularly helpful gear to boot.

I agree 100% that people who twink hard need to see some results, I'm absolutely 100% convinced of that... I mean, I'm trying to do one of the hardest twinks in game right now (I'm doing it for the reason that my toon is underpowered and need to SQUEEEEEZE every last bit of potential out of it) to be competitive.

Yes, twinks need to be rewarded.. A great example of this is a particular matchup:
170 twinked to the tits keeper vs 170 twinked to the tits soldier.
twinked to the tits keeper has a 0% chance of winning this 1 on 1, BUT, any keeper should know this, and I accept it as a consequence of 2 things, 1. the prof specific weakness, and 2. I'm facing a damn good twink.
The beauty of this is for the soldier, his efforts have resulted in a garaunteed win. And thats benefit for him to twink hard. (whats my benefit?)

The question is, about all this is though, should the benefit of twinking be the reward of getting higher *level* perks, or, should the platform remain the same with the only reward being the inherent defence and offence available to you as having a twinked toon?

I mean, we can't just discount that fact that a twinked toon vs an untwinked too will be just a stupid blowout... because usually it is. BUT, and this is the huge one, SHOULD a twinked toon have access to a different "platform" than a crappy setup toon?...

I guess the other way to work this is with special attacks, like backstab, which operates on the same principle. I don't see why it couldn't work for a variety of special attacks.

IMO, keeper should gain a 2he special (wrath is useless), called swordsmans guile, which is a special attack like backstab, instantaneous, moderate dmg and low def check with a 30% chance to stun for 2 seconds.


Bleh, sorry, I'm getting off topic. This type of special could open up quite early though, like BS is available around 60-80 isn't it?

Anyway, I'm not 100% convinced about Hacre's suggestion still, but bump for thread anyhow.

What this thread sounds like is "give low level shades/keepers love."

I'm all for that. But, like I said I don't think that you should have the full availability of your perk toolset at low level, not even if you get one more perk that you have to squeeze into your defense or alpha somewhere. Perk toolsets are not even comparable. Some professions benefit HUGELY from this (I'm thinking Advys, MAs, Shades, Keepers, Agents profs that get big defense perks and lots of offense perks), while others don't benefit at all (I'm thinking Soldiers, Crats, Engis, NTs, profs with no major defense perks).

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Originally Posted by Hacre

No. No no no no no.

Twinking and more importantly, putting a lot of effort into twinking, should reveal results.
...snip...

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Reveal results, yes... However, twinking should give you an edge, not a guaranteed win in my opinion.

The way it is now scares a lot of new players off, simply because they are looking at having to play for years to even have a chance at being competitive even if they opt for trying at lower levels.

The only people that benefits from that is the ones who thrive on killing gimps that do not pose a threat.

In the long run no one benefits from that.

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Originally Posted by SultryVoltron

What this thread sounds like is "give low level shades/keepers love."

I'm all for that. But, like I said I don't think that you should have the full availability of your perk toolset at low level, not even if you get one more perk that you have to squeeze into your defense or alpha somewhere. Perk toolsets are not even comparable. Some professions benefit HUGELY from this (I'm thinking Advys, MAs, Shades, Keepers, Agents profs that get big defense perks and lots of offense perks), while others don't benefit at all (I'm thinking Soldiers, Crats, Engis, NTs, profs with no major defense perks).

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This has to be probably the most selfish stance a person could ever take. Most professions toolkits are NANO based with little support from perks. Others are completely perk reliant and nanos mean pretty much jack squat. I could not possibly disagree more with you if I tried. :p

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Originally Posted by Aethyrguard

This has to be probably the most selfish stance a person could ever take. Most professions toolkits are NANO based with little support from perks. Others are completely perk reliant and nanos mean pretty much jack squat. I could not possibly disagree more with you if I tried. :p

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And you would screw the nano based profs because TWO perk based profs are weak at low levels? Sorry mate, I don't like this idea.

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Originally Posted by SultryVoltron

And you would screw the nano based profs because TWO perk based profs are weak at low levels? Sorry mate, I don't like this idea.

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Uhm.. How are you being screwed by having more options available sooner rather than later with a lessened degree of effectiveness which scales up to it's current effectiveness at it's current level locked equivalence? I am just going to assume you didn't think this through all the way. :p

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Originally Posted by Aethyrguard

Uhm.. How are you being screwed by having more options available sooner rather than later with a lessened degree of effectiveness which scales up to it's current effectiveness at it's current level locked equivalence? I am just going to assume you didn't think this through all the way. :p

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Maybe it's just me, but this is basically why I deleted my shade. Everything you do becomes exactly the same with more damage, and in this case, one more perk. I enjoy getting new perks and figuring out when and how I'm going to use them. If I've got all that figured out by level 80, then I just do the same thing until 220.

It also gives people powerful perk actions at low levels. Can you imagine low level Agents with CS? Or lowbie Enfs with all the 1hb stuns and init debuffs? Heck, even lowbie 2he enfs with Reaver? That doesn't sound like it's making PvP more balanced or fun.

I like the idea of perk actions scaling, maybe some of the less useful perks at high level could gain some usefulness.
However, putting all perk actions in within the first 5 perk points sounds a little over the top. Also, just because someone disagrees or finds flaws in your ideas, does not mean they 'did not read it' or 'didn't get it'. Every thread I have read from aethyr has these type of responses to criticism.

I think scaling would be a very interesting toy for the devs to play with, it could completely redefine character classes with many options to play around with % gains.
Just throwing in the extra dmg or faster cooldowns on perk actions could make alot of the classes at different TL's more competitive.

I dont think breaking down perk lines to say 5 chains would be suitable, perhaps some of them yes but definetly not all of them.

Bump for this though, interesting way of looking at it & well thought out. Great thread!!

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Originally Posted by SultryVoltron

Maybe it's just me, but this is basically why I deleted my shade. Everything you do becomes exactly the same with more damage, and in this case, one more perk. I enjoy getting new perks and figuring out when and how I'm going to use them. If I've got all that figured out by level 80, then I just do the same thing until 220.

It also gives people powerful perk actions at low levels. Can you imagine low level Agents with CS? Or lowbie Enfs with all the 1hb stuns and init debuffs? Heck, even lowbie 2he enfs with Reaver? That doesn't sound like it's making PvP more balanced or fun.

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Nothing in this post makes a lick of sense. Firstly, you are comparing the entire idea to how a shade functions? That is nonsense. A shade gets a variety of perks which stack on each other granted, but, that is not the premise of this idea as you suggest therefore I am certain you do not understand how it would work out.

Secondly, you say "I enjoy getting new perks and figuring out when and how I'm going to use them. If I've got all that figured out by level 80, then I just do the same thing until 220.". As it is now there are large gaps where no new perk actions are unlocked and many level ranges where professions are left crippled due to this. The suggestion I have put forth would allow you to be unlocking new perk actions from lvl 10-220 every 10 levels / 1 shadow level provided your profession has that many total perk actions available or you could keep enhancing a few perk actions you like and have unlocked early on all the way to max potential and get a nice new Finsher/Finale perk action at the last perk point for that line as a reward for maxing it. This means that what I am suggesting is the exact opposite of what you think.

Lastly, you say, "It also gives people powerful perk actions at low levels. Can you imagine low level Agents with CS? Or lowbie Enfs with all the 1hb stuns and init debuffs? Heck, even lowbie 2he enfs with Reaver? That doesn't sound like it's making PvP more balanced or fun". To that I say. Absolutely. The problem with lowbie pvp is not just a few nanos or perks being OP in the hands of one profession. It is the fact that the other professions which later has an option to counter an ability isn't unlocked until another is. Keepers are crap until TL7 and even crap still at TL7 as a result. I completely, utterly, and totally disagree with the sentiment you posted in your final paragraph because it simply makes no sense. You think that baby forms of these specials would be over powered yet the full version isn't at TL7? :rolleyes:

The game is not about Keepers. I really don't think you're taking all professions into account. What perk specials are you going to give soldiers? What are Engis going to get from this? What about NTs? There are so many unanswered questions that this does not solve. All I see this suggestion doing is boosting perk based professions above their non-perk reliant opponents, who will have to suffer through the exact same problems they currently face.


I cannot understand how you ignore the fact that profession's perks are not balanced. The earlier you give perks to professions with powerful offensive and defensive perks, the earlier they stomp the professions with weak perks.

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Originally Posted by SultryVoltron

The game is not about Keepers. I really don't think you're taking all professions into account. What perk specials are you going to give soldiers? What are Engis going to get from this? What about NTs? There are so many unanswered questions that this does not solve. All I see this suggestion doing is boosting perk based professions above their non-perk reliant opponents, who will have to suffer through the exact same problems they currently face.


I cannot understand how you ignore the fact that profession's perks are not balanced. The earlier you give perks to professions with powerful offensive and defensive perks, the earlier they stomp the professions with weak perks.

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That is not true in any way. Perk reliant professions currently just don't exist at any TL other than TL7. Why is that? Because most of those professions already have their toolsets opened up via nanos and weapon specials already. Now let's continue this with what on earth are you talking about relating to this not benefiting "non keepers/shades", other than giving them another adversary other than a gnat you simply ignore in pvp unless atrox at TL7?

I really think you are confused overall on every point from bottom to top and I can't for the life of me understand what it is you are not getting about this whole thing or simply just being "sultryvoltron" eg against all logic at every available opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Aethyrguard

That is not true in any way. Perk reliant professions currently just don't exist at any TL other than TL7. Why is that? Because most of those professions already have their toolsets opened up via nanos and weapon specials already. Now let's continue this with what on earth are you talking about relating to this not benefiting "non keepers/shades", other than giving them another adversary other than a gnat you simply ignore in pvp unless atrox at TL7?

I really think you are confused overall on every point from bottom to top and I can't for the life of me understand what it is you are not getting about this whole thing or simply just being "sultryvoltron" eg against all logic at every available opportunity.

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I'm not going to spell out the details of how much this will imbalance some professions versus others. You can think about that on your own time, and I recommend that you do so. Here's a tip: Think about Enfos and Traders versus Engis and NTs. No Keepers/Shades involved so that heavily perk reliant professions are not even a factor. See which one you think will dominate the other one at pre-TL7 PvP. Keep in mind the AS nerf, and the unknown changes to casting.

A complete rework of the perk system into some sort of wannabe WoW specialization system will create as many problems as it fixes. This is especially true considering that absolutely nothing is known about what the future of AO pvp holds EXCEPT for perks, which are still up for change. Huge, sweeping, drastic changes to a single part of a system that is under current repair across all levels of play is not warranted with as little information as we have.

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Originally Posted by SultryVoltron

I'm not going to spell out the details of how much this will imbalance some professions versus others. You can think about that on your own time, and I recommend that you do so. Here's a tip: Think about Enfos and Traders versus Engis and NTs. No Keepers/Shades involved so that heavily perk reliant professions are not even a factor. See which one you think will dominate the other one at pre-TL7 PvP. Keep in mind the AS nerf, and the unknown changes to casting.

A complete rework of the perk system into some sort of wannabe WoW specialization system will create as many problems as it fixes. This is especially true considering that absolutely nothing is known about what the future of AO pvp holds EXCEPT for perks, which are still up for change. Huge, sweeping, drastic changes to a single part of a system that is under current repair across all levels of play is not warranted with as little information as we have.

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The entire system as it stands is unknown. As you stated. This is exactly why your other points here make no sense. If a baby form of every perk was available in their current order just earlier than it is now you'd have both constant upgrading steps much more than we do now, easier time balancing professions across all levels and no clear victor as you claim to have some foresight into the outcome of. I still really do not agree with you, and, am quite certain lacking any sort of evidence to back your point I will likely never agree with you even in the slightest. I will have to agree to disagree until you can back even one of your assumptions with a shred of evidence or fact.

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Originally Posted by Aethyrguard

The entire system as it stands is unknown. As you stated. This is exactly why your other points here make no sense. If a baby form of every perk was available in their current order just earlier than it is now you'd have both constant upgrading steps much more than we do now, easier time balancing professions across all levels and no clear victor as you claim to have some foresight into the outcome of. I still really do not agree with you, and, am quite certain lacking any sort of evidence to back your point I will likely never agree with you even in the slightest. I will have to agree to disagree until you can back even one of your assumptions with a shred of evidence or fact.

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There is absolutely no evidence to back either point of view. You cannot stand here and claim that your system will provide more balance with changes that are merely notions on a piece of virtual paper with no real numbers or testing to back it up, and at the same time say that the unknown changes the developing team has in mind for the current system will not suffice for balance. Your suggestion is not needed, or even appropriate, at this point in time. It is not a balance suggestion. It is a game suggestion.

Sultry, I was reading one of your posts earlier where you said that it will throw balance out against all nano using classes.

But, that is the entire point of the thread: Shades and keepers AREN'T using nano in battle, and thus lose out on a VITAL part of gameplay.

You ask: what would NT's gain? or Engies? The point is is that engies HAVE a robot, they HAVE reflects, they HAVE their toolset at low levels. NT's HAVE nukes, they HAVE the PNH's and the cost, they can twink up their nanoskills and USE it.

Keepers and shade do not. They have a few weak nanos which are buffed prior to fighting, which, at low levels do nothing compared to some profs with comparable skills. For example:

Keeper buffs a heal nano: heals 480 every 20 second tick.
Advy USES moonbeam: heals ~1000 every ~3 seconds.
Fixer USES a HOT or 3 hots/5 at TL7?: Heals for ~300 every 6 seconds. (or whatever)

Keeper buffs immenence: perma 30 AAO for 2 hours.
Enforcer USES challenger: 250 AAO for 1:20 seconds.

Keeper buffs barrier: 5% reflects for 2 hours
Soldier USES AMS: 75% reflects for 1:20seconds

Do you see? If fights were 2hours long, and a soldier's FA recharge was 5 minutes, yea, we're balanced. This isn't the point though, the point is that fights happen in the 1:20 second DURING TMS, or DURING challenger! So, how are we supposed to combat those?

By TL2 most profs have 50-70% of their toolset.

By TL5, most profs have 80-90% of their toolset. Some have 80-90% of their toolset by TL2, (traders, for instance), but, keepers and shades on the other hand, because their in fight toolset is exclusively perk based (with the exception of nemesis nanos), at BEST, we have 43% of our toolset by high TL5 (thats, 17 perks/total 40 perks)

So, you want to know why shades and keepers need a different perk distribution? It's because our toolset is dictated by perks, which, we're approximately 30-50% behind the rest of the playerbase in ANY other prof.

If you want to look at it another way, What if I told you CH is getting a 2 minute recharge? What would you say? Well, guess what ? My BEST healing perk heals for a FIFTH that CH does, AND it has a 2m lockout. So, how do you like that?

Now do you see why we're arguing for more perks? We're screwed right now.

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Originally Posted by SultryVoltron

Maybe it's just me, but this is basically why I deleted my shade. Everything you do becomes exactly the same with more damage, and in this case, one more perk. I enjoy getting new perks and figuring out when and how I'm going to use them. If I've got all that figured out by level 80, then I just do the same thing until 220.

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a shade doesn't get its full pvm toolet until 214. PM for damage. SP for AAO/AAD drains. TR for health drains. acro. after that you can start putting perks into CiB.

lvl 80 shade is like playing an advy with no coon/morphs or heals.

the push for more perk actions early on is so perk reliant professions get access to more of their toolset early on. not 'the end game perks' but the perk actions which define their profession (scaled of course).

imagine playing the following to tl7 and having a large part of your toolset locked out

crat and having to choose between roots and calms or charms
fixer having to choose between hot's or snares
enfo having to choose between mongo or rage
doctor having to choose between heals or intit debuffs

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Originally Posted by mr_road

a shade doesn't get its full pvm toolet until 214. PM for damage. SP for AAO/AAD drains. TR for health drains. acro. after that you can start putting perks into CiB.

lvl 80 shade is like playing an advy with no coon/morphs or heals.

the push for more perk actions early on is so perk reliant professions get access to more of their toolset early on. not 'the end game perks' but the perk actions which define their profession (scaled of course).

imagine playing the following to tl7 and having a large part of your toolset locked out

crat and having to choose between roots and calms or charms
fixer having to choose between hot's or snares
enfo having to choose between mongo or rage
doctor having to choose between heals or intit debuffs

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Opening up more perk actions for non-perk-reliant professions is not a good idea.

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Originally Posted by SultryVoltron

Opening up more perk actions for non-perk-reliant professions is not a good idea.

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/agreed, but that is not what aeryth is suggesting. Afaik, this suggestion is only for shades and keepers.

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Originally Posted by SultryVoltron

Opening up more perk actions for non-perk-reliant professions is not a good idea.

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then don't do it for those professions.

or only do it for perk lines which are extensions to an existing toolset and not an increase to an already present part of a toolset.