Ouch... that hurts.Quote:
Originally posted by Sallust
Beats beng a clean, pressed, brainwashed, corporate clone any day of the week.
Lets start calling eachother names now.
Ouch... that hurts.Quote:
Originally posted by Sallust
Beats beng a clean, pressed, brainwashed, corporate clone any day of the week.
Lets start calling eachother names now.
You see ICC only needs the clans to create a balance.They wanna make them selfs sure that OMNI will not bee the only surce of notum.And you see when you say that a Democratic goverment is only a legal form of a slave owner you are forgeting one thing.In old Earths history there was a period when the whole world was in war for the second time.In that time there where to dictators from two differnt nations but they where just as evil.But when one of them attackd the other his people defended him.Why? Because betwen two evils they chose the one who spoked their language.So as those who elected Silverstone have chosen the dictator who represenst them.I have my resons to hate omni.I have my resons to kill omni.So do has omni to kill claners.I never asked to any Omni to respect our laws. And i never will.And you now some would like to not to live under a corporate goverment some people would like to distance them selfs from corporations.Whay can corporations leave those people alone.And when you say that whe comit terrorist actions you forget that whe dont have to finantial background of a corporation so whe fihgt how whe can.
And by adopting a "The end justifies the means" attitude Mihalix, you lose the moral high ground, and in the end have no right to complain about your oponent fighting dirty in return. Yes, i know, Omni threw the first low-blow, but then you followed suit, and now look at where we are.
Also, it is nice to see that it is a Clanner that is comparing Silverstone with one of the worst butcheres throughout mankinds history. If an Omni did it, we would never hear the end of it.
Ok Mihalix, the hardest of simple questions. How would you solve this? How would you put a stop to the fighting we have? Let´s hear your suggestions.
Sallust, i have found some rumors pointing to what you claimed about the SBC landing but i have never found any confirming documents. Can you point me to where you found yours if you please?
Actually, Sallust, I think your history text is a bit incorrect.Quote:
Originally posted by Sallust
ICC is such a fan of the Clans that they joined forces with Sol Banking in the 3rd Rubi-Kan war to attack the Clans. It was a joint force of Clans and Omni-Tek soldiers which drove them away from killing all of us and occupying rubi-ka.
Don't forget your history lessons people.
The Second Civil War started in 29374, the Corporate Wars begun in 29389, and due to the demands for troops across known space, the Rubi-Ka’n civil war slowed to a halt and there was a withdraw from clan held territories in 29390. There was no formal declaration of peace, and hostilities did flare up for the next eight years. The Sol Banking troops landed in 29418, twenty years after the commonly recognized end of the Second Civil War. The Third wouldn’t start for another 43 years in 29461.
As for ICC support of the invasion, at the point of the invasion, there were over one hundred corporations fighting in over two hundred and fifty populated systems. The ICC was not in a position to support any invasion against any corporation at that time. It was struggling to protect its installations and personnel while fighting to retain their legitimacy. If anyone supported the Sol Banking troops, it was TruSpace when they broke the Omni-Tek orbital defenses and launched space to surface missiles on Omni-One.
However, Sallust, I agree with you that people should not forget their history.
You are actually pouring water on Silverstone's mills with such ill-advised claims. But Omni-Tek has not really been lucky with competent leaders on Rubi-Ka anyways, as the wars of the past show. So I guess we got to live with that.Quote:
Originally posted by Marisha
Actually, per the ICC lease on Rubi-Ka, we are the legitimate government of Rubi-Ka. I know this may be hard for you to grasp, but on Rubi-Ka, Omni-Tek is both a government and a corporation. The two are not mutually exclusive.
First, the ICC is not a legitimate authority - none I accept cause it is not been elected by the people they claim to govern. Thus, the ICC cannot grant leases on populated worlds, that's a right of the respective inabitants exclusively. I go even further and contest ICC's rights to grant rights on unpopulated worlds. As far as I am concerned, Omni-Tek claims its right to Rubi-Ka at gunpoint, without any right. Their treatment of the planet and their own people puts OTRK in a position where it can hardly accuse others of being inhumane or terrorists.
Second: For as long as Omni-Tek does not give up their claim to be the only legal government of this planet I will share Mr. Silverstone's oppinion on Omni-Tek. As long as you claim that we should rightfully be "property" of Omni-Tek, I will dedicate my efforts into destroying as much company "property" as I can and must to retain my freedom and my right to live the way I want it to.
I will start discussing the future of this planet with Omni-Tek officials the very day Omni-Tek formally and inrevocably denounces their will to be a governing power on this planet. As a corporation doing business here you are welcome. For as long as you try to rule us, you will pay it up in blood, sweat and tears.
Okay then, try this:Quote:
Originally posted by Marisha
Actually, Sallust, I think your history text is a bit incorrect.
....
However, Sallust, I agree with you that people should not forget their history. [/B]
May 19 29418
Sol Banking Corporation lands mechanised troops and war-machines on Rubi-Ka. Their objective is to seize control of Omni-Tek's notum operations. Omni-Tek receives unexpected help from the clans in the ensuing and drawn-out ground war.
29458
The galactic economy finally gains momentum after the recession, and the demand for notum increases weekly. Omni-Tek asks the Council of Truth to reopen access to OT-owned mines in the north. The Council accepts, on the condition that the clans are compensated accordingly. Omni-Tek reluctantly concedes to the Council's demands.
29459
Omni-Tek begins operating the closed mines in the north, but fails to give the clans any windfall from the operations. Some clans that remain unaffiliated with the Council of Truth carry out attacks on OT troops, carriers, mines, and processing facilities.
August 26 29461
Claiming the clans are disrupting commercial interests, Omni-Tek moves to reclaim all occupied territories by force.
August 27 29461
Peaceful protests in Tir and Omni-1 are disrupted when Omni-Tek forces fire at the crowds. Hundreds are wounded and killed, and many of the victims lack insurance.
August 29 29461
The clans put aside political differences to join in a common military offensive against Omni-Tek.
August 30 29461
The third Rubi-Kan civil war begins with the Battle of Stret, where more than one thousand lives are lost.
29462
Fearful of ICC penalties, weakened by the Corporate Wars, and conscious of public opinion, Omni-Tek cautiously pulls back from the north.
29463
A former trader uses his immense fortune to buy land from the clans, and builds Avalon and Camelot in less than six months. He founds the clan Knights, and names himself Lord Galahad.
29464
The Omni-Tek board on Omni Prime rejects a request from Omni-Tek of Rubi-Ka for additional forces in the war with the clans. Notum production in the south is sufficient to meet current galactic demands. In addition, OT has to deal with a tattered reputation in the marketplace, and another war isn't helping.
29465
Armed ICC personnel attempt to intervene in the civil war on Rubi-Ka, but there is little support from corporations still licking their wounds from the Corporate Wars. The ICC ends up fighting both clan and Omni-Tek soldiers on two fronts, and quickly pulls back.
April 21 29470
With the clans now less than fifty miles from Omni-1, dug down under a barrage of Omni-Tek fire, the third Rubi-Kan civil war is halted by a ninety-day ceasefire.
July 04 29470
The Council of Truth, Omni-Tek representatives, and ICC observers sign the Tir Accord. A permanent ceasefire is finally in effect.
July 05 29470
Simon Silverstone, leader of the clan Sentinels, declares that the members of the Council of Truth are traitors to the clan cause, and cuts all political ties with the Council. The Sentinels are immediately joined by a large number of extremist clans.
------------------
So who doesn't know their history again?
That is all well and good, but its also irrelevant. You might believe that governments should be elected by the people. Another guy might believe in the divine right of kings to rule. In other cultures the high priest of Zug will annoint the future ruler with pigs blood. So what?Quote:
Originally posted by Daimoness
First, the ICC is not a legitimate authority - none I accept cause it is not been elected by the people they claim to govern.
We all have our belief systems, but we belong to a civilisation, and a civiliisation has to have rules which its members cannot be allowed to unilaterally ignore. I mean if I were go around and kill someone then tell the judge at my trial that under my belief system killing is not a crime and I don't recongise this court's authority, do you think they'd let me off?
I'll say this again. The Clans are not a seperate civilisation. You are not the indigenous species of this planet who have been invaded by an foreign power. You are descendents of ICC colonists living on a planet terraformed and kept livable every day by an ICC corporation. Whether you like it or not, you do fall under ICC and by the same token ICC law protects you. And you should be grateful for the ICC protection because without it the Clans would not have survived.
Savoy
Okay, lets re-examine your original statement.
Now, if you permit, I’ll skim down your historical analysis. From the beginning to the part you have in bold…Quote:
Originally posted by Sallust
ICC is such a fan of the Clans that they joined forces with Sol Banking in the 3rd Rubi-Kan war to attack the Clans. It was a joint force of Clans and Omni-Tek soldiers which drove them away from killing all of us and occupying rubi-ka.
SBC lands troops, troops are forced offworld by OT and Clan forces working together. Forty years pass and the mines in the north are reopened, rogue clans attack mining operations, decreasing bottom lines and disrupting supply, so OT moves to secure Notum transit, tensions rise and the third war starts. Galahad buys lands from the clans. OT does not send additional troops.
Heavy involvement from SBC over that forty-five year span. Other than the allegations of illegal Notum mining in the Outzone (not mentioned in your historical analysis), SBC’s involvement on Rubi-Ka seems to be minimal.
Now, the part in bold.
Okay. Where is the mention of SBC or joint Clan/OT military action? I see armed ICC personnel (remember, they got their military after the Corporate Wars) and two fronts.Quote:
Originally posted by Sallust
29465
Armed ICC personnel attempt to intervene in the civil war on Rubi-Ka, but there is little support from corporations still licking their wounds from the Corporate Wars. The ICC ends up fighting both clan and Omni-Tek soldiers on two fronts, and quickly pulls back.
Then we go to the ceasefire, Tir Treaty, and Speaker Silverstone cutting ties with the CoT. While there are ICC observers, I don’t see any mention of SBC. Though, I’m sure they really hated the Tir Treaty, but that’s just a guess on my part.
Well, forgive me please, but I’m still going to imply you. You claim that there was a joint SBC/ICC invasion during the third war that was repulsed by a joint OT/Clan military force.Quote:
Originally posted by Sallust
So who doesn't know their history again?
I don’t see it, and I’m asking you to justify your comments. Where is the evidence in the historical record to back your claim?
Would it be a legitimate authority if it handed the lease over to the Clans, or would you dispute their authority even then? Clan members have criticized me (Sentinel supporters to boot) for asking “What if?” I’ll respect your wishes, should you not wish to answer that question.Quote:
Originally posted by Daimoness
First, the ICC is not a legitimate authority - none I accept cause it is not been elected by the people they claim to govern.
I don’t believe I ever claimed that the clans were property of Omni-Tek, and I challenge you to document where we said that the clans were our property. Now, you may be referring to the comments made back in ’76 by CEO Ross regarding the Neutral population. It’s important to note that he mentions that the ICC considers the Neutral population of Rubi-Ka to be employees, and as such, our commitments to them must be reaffirmed.Quote:
Originally posted by Daimoness
As long as you claim that we should rightfully be "property" of Omni-Tek, I will dedicate my efforts into destroying as much company "property" as I can and must to retain my freedom and my right to live the way I want it to.
A corporation is organized as a feudal society. Employees work for the corporation, and in return they receive benefits. Ideally, the corporation provides for the every need of the employee, and in return the employee provides labor and production that increases shareholder value. I could explain the nuances in greater detail, but you may be more comfortable talking to Lord Galahad, should you seek greater understanding. In short, to fulfill our obligations to our employees in the eyes of the ICC, we must fulfill our obligations to the Neutral population. Not all accept what we have to offer, but this cannot be avoided, unfortunately.
I dont have any ideas solving this problem. The only posibility is an open ellection for all citizens of rubika neutrals omnis and claners. That could lead to peace but until that happens the war will go on clans will protect themselfs the way they can and omni will try on destroying us!
If Omni was really trying to destory you, you would of been gone a very long time ago. Better start thanking the ICC.Quote:
Originally posted by Mihalix
omni will try on destroying us!
If whe are such a problem to Omni security if whe are the evil terrorist you say whe are way dont you just get rid of us. Because you cant. Military history will show you that ones whelt and power is not enouhg to owercome an determind enemy.
So you should not bee so sure of yourself!
You'd be surprised what orbital bombardment can overcome.Quote:
Originally posted by Mihalix
and power is not enouhg to owercome an determind enemy.
Trath, believe me there's very little Omni-Tek did not try to get rid of the clans. But we are here to stay. Must be frustrating to see how little your huge military juggernaut could do against a rag-tag band of clanners.
And the ICC does not protect me from anything. It's my gun that protects me. It's been the guns and the lives of countless clanners that protected us. We do not need some self-appointed nanny to watch over us.
In fact, we helped you to get ICC off this planet.
By voiding the Tir Accord - even though it was highly advantageous for Omni-Tek - you declared us outlawed once more, threatening us on our very own grounds. I still remember that suddenly Omni-Pol was patrolling in Tir like it were their home. That's when Simon decided to end this game and made sure Omni-Pol would stay out of our ways.
More to come, but right now I'm just too tired.
-D
If you were really hurting Omni you would be gone. As it is at most you are minor annoyance, they can't act decisively without causing too much trouble to be profitable, but if you make it worth their while...Quote:
Originally posted by Daimoness
Trath, believe me there's very little Omni-Tek did not try to get rid of the clans.
Me? I'm not Omni, I'm neutral, but given recent clan actions over the past few years my feelings are strongly drifting towards Omni.Quote:
Originally posted by Daimoness
But we are here to stay. Must be frustrating to see how little your huge military juggernaut could do against a rag-tag band of clanners.
Keep on thinking that deary, I'm sure it helps you sleep at night.Quote:
Originally posted by Daimoness
And the ICC does not protect me from anything.
Without that Nanny Omni would of turned Tir and Athan into slag pits years ago.Quote:
Originally posted by Daimoness
It's my gun that protects me. It's been the guns and the lives of countless clanners that protected us. We do not need some self-appointed nanny to watch over us.
Perhaps in the clan schools in the North, you learn a different history. I was taught that because of our desire to extend the lease on Rubi-Ka, Omni-Tek complies with ICC rulings and mandates. Because of this, we’ve refrained from the massive offences so prevalent in the Second Civil War. We began to pull back from the North during the Third Civil War because of ICC pressure. We gave you insurance technology, rather than take advantage of sixteen-year gap where we had the tech and you didn’t. I sincerely doubt that there would be a clan presence if we had decided one morning to see what would happen if an army that could reclaim fought an army that perma-died.Quote:
Originally posted by Daimoness
And the ICC does not protect me from anything.
Why didn’t we? The Interstellar Confederation of Corporations.
When Radiman, the old CoT, and the Tir city guards up and disappeared, it was the ICC that moved in to ensure that Tir did not become completely lawless. Sure Omni-Pol ran patrols, because so much crime inside our territory had originated from Tir prior to the collapse of the CoT. Sure Citizen Employees visited Tir and walked around like lords, because poverty and hardship remind us how lucky we are. Rather than address the faults of your former leaders abandoning the city, it’s easier to attack the individuals who let the filthy corporate rats into the holiest of holies
I suppose it’s a bit much for you to be grateful to the ICC for all they’ve made possible for you, but memories are short, and history is meaningless to some if they don’t personally experience it.
When? As I mentioned earlier, the ICC forces were fighting on two fronts. There’s a difference between helping and being another target to shoot at, but based on the “help” given to the Newland Guard Initiative by the clans, I can see that your “help” was influential in removing the ICC from the planet back in ’65.Quote:
Originally posted by Daimoness
In fact, we helped you to get ICC off this planet.
Dat's just so like tha Clans, y'know. Forgettin' oh so conveniently that even tha terraformed ground they live on, they owe it to Omni-Tek. No, no,Oomni-Tek din't provide anythin', neither a planet to live on, nor tha insurance technology. It's all yer words and guns that keep ya alive.
Dun't fool yerselves. In tha end, it's still Omni-Tek's technology that keeps ya alive. And yesh, if it hadn't been fer tha ICC intervening, ya wouldn't have it. Would it be selfish and "non-democratic" to keep tha insurance system fer ourselves? Most cetainly. Would have [i]ya(/i] given, to a group of people callin' to arms against ya, a technology placin' them on tha same foot with ya if ya could have avoided it? No. Here's yer answer. Third-party's intervention.
I'm still amazed soemtimes at how ya people keep in mind cetain parts of yer history while dismissing others, and how ya seem to think it ain't history, but that it's happenin' right now. Ya go on callin' foul, hostilities... then dun't be surprised if Omni-Tek's dun't see ya with a good eye.
Happens everywhere...selective memory. Not just in the Clans.
Ain´t that the truth Vixentrox. Humanity has a nasty tendency for never learning from past mistakes.
What is more profitable? Sharing notum ore posesing it all? Come on Omni will and have tryad anything to get ride off us!