Help please! Shade=underpowered

After tonight, I've had a couple of complaints.
One that everyone's had for a long time:
We have no AR:
I have to go in full AR setup just to get 2.8k AR which means losing a stupid amount of evades (about 500) meaning that everyone and their momma can perk me. Problem with this being that even with 2.8k AR, I still can't perk a lot of people, including enforcers which should just not happen. Don't get me wrong, I could get a bit more AR (about 340 more AR) which would put me at just over the 3k AR mark or if i was in evade setup, 2.8ish k AR. Both of which wouldn't fix my issues.
suggestions:
-We are a fully 100% perk dependant prof. Maybe make some of our perks check less against evades (like..idk...the prof with 3.7k AR AKA enfo's!)
-Add some AR to spirits as well as evades. I hotswap like a mofo as is, but even so, there's some situations you can't do anything about

Nano resist:
Everything lands on us, whether we want it to or not. As twinked as I can figure, I have about 2.1k NR...MA's without HHAB on have more NR than that. Help us out some on this please!


QQ Session about other profs:

Docs-
I can't complain at all, if anything docs should get a little help against us. Shades > docs in 1v1 pvp.

Engineers-
If they have AS gun, I might as well just /terminate. If not, I have a chance to alpha them before their stupid high AR pets eat me. DROP PETS AR PLEASE! ITS TOO HIGH!

MP's-
Not applicable, not pvp'd a whole lot of them

Crat's-
Can't perk, cant land nanos on, only able to hit them with SA and hope that our procs land. which, there's nothing wrong with their evades, it's our AR. Help us please!

Fixers-
why can they perk us? (for the record, I have about 3.8k static evades [no perks up]) am I missing something? when did they get dumb amounts of AR? pretty much same thing with crats. SA and hope that the procs land. Also, whoever thought that program override was a good idea deserves a swift kick to the nuts, seriously? take away my acro perks? Jesus hates you.

Enforcers- 2 real setups for them:
high AR, low evades- Have fun trying to evade them, I have only beaten one ever in a 1V1 and that's by timing everything absolutely right and popping out from hide with Dof+limber+stance+blur landed on them+sleeve up and even then I almost got alphad

decent AR, high evades- /quit you won't win. Can't perk them, need over 3k AR which you can get, but need to drop lots of evades which makes you perkable. and alpha-able

Advy's-
Pistol-you'll get alphad or survive to the 2nd alpha, won't be able to do enough dmg to do anything to them really. Only SA and procs will do anything really to them (unfortunately, they have so much heals you need the stun proc to do anything to them)

Melee-pretty much same as pistol except a little less OP. You're still gonna get ownd

other shades-
It's like a cripple fight

Keepers-
Yeah, we have nem nano, big woop. Not like we have enough AR to do anything to them. They still evade everything we have, and even have healing enough to out heal anything we do to them.

Soldiers-
Can't complain about them, unless they have the stupid AS carbine (nerf this weapon please...or better yet, nerf AS)

Agents-
If it's in evade setup you probably won't win, if not, it's a 50/50 chance you could win, depends on who sees who first. And even then, it depends on who can kite/defend against a kite better

MA-
AS, Ice arrows, SA, brawl, dimach dead shade. nuff said

Tarder-
I don't even stay in bs if I see these anymore, it's no point. (when 1 trader can kill a whole team of the opposite faction, that's just stupid)

NT-
Our worst enemy. They should have the biggest nerf of all when it comes to shade pvping them. I tested this extensively, and I can say that there's no possible way for us to beat them if they are setup a certain way.
The way is this:
NSII->guard->5k absorb

Now that doesn't seem like a lot, but NSII is a 100% reflect shield for 13 seconds. Considering that my shade (in both big hp setup and low hp setup) could barely survive the 13 seconds, and then haveing to rip through the guard somehow and the 5k absorb in another about 10-15 seconds? There's no way we can survive short of going NR 8 and making ourselfs almost useless.
I have managed to survive through NS II once, but that was with the NT kinda toying with me (most of them alpha me). And even if I can survive the NS II, they can then kite me. If they want to, being that we have no root resist (yes we have a perkline for it, no we don't have perks we can waste on it), they don't have to kite very much.

End QQ session

Wrap up points:
Help shades with the following
-more AR/less evade check on perks
-more NR

Lastly, people will say that shades are overpowered, but all I have to say is this:
Roll an Opi shade, if you can get around all these things that I've listed I will /bow to you and stop asking for help from FC. Until then, STFU! I don't care what you have to say about us if you've never been one of us and faced the struggles we have.

Le fin

The perk system is getting revised. Patience.

Also, speaking as a crat, there's currently no way to balance the crat vs. shade fights. If you perk us (trox with mango raaaaaage), we go splat instantly. If you can't, you'll die eventually. There's no middle ground there.

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Originally Posted by Ownsauce

Nano resist:
Everything lands on us, whether we want it to or not. As twinked as I can figure, I have about 2.1k NR...MA's without HHAB on have more NR than that. Help us out some on this please!

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there is this particular perkline you may have heard of, its called Notum Repulsor, or NR for short. From what i understand, shades are one of 2(?) profs that actually get any real benefit from it. you may want to look into that. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Ownsauce

Roll an Opi shade, if you can get around all these things that I've listed...

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this may be news to you, but not all breed/prof combinations are equal! no one has to go roll one up to understand your perspective.

Like Crattey has said already in this thread, perks are being reworked, and on top of that there will be an available breed change. If you want to change to trox, or hell nanomage, whatever, you will have that choice.

**Here** is where i point out that shades are in fact OP, and both my tl7s (engi and agent) have been killed by opifex shades with a respectable amount of finality (tho good ones are rarer than trox lately). i recommend going back to the drawing board.

I have to go in full AR setup just to get 2.8k AR
-3.2k AR is not impossible, nor is difficult to swap into at 220 as opifex.

which means losing a stupid amount of evades (about 500) meaning that everyone and their momma can perk me.
-It's more than a 500 point loss when you talk alphas. To be fair though, in a full def/evades setup, you can tank 4k AR (opi).

Problem with this being that even with 2.8k AR, I still can't perk a lot of people, including enforcers which should just not happen.
-Docs, Engis, alot of traders, alot of agents, alot of enfos, and all soldiers are still perkable at 2.8k AR. Though, there are still enfos which take 3k AR to perk. Blur is sufficient until rebalance (in which you will not have the advantage of the extra AR offensive check).

We are a fully 100% perk dependant prof. Maybe make some of our perks check less against evades (like..idk...the prof with 3.7k AR AKA enfo's!)
-Enfos can get more AR than that, but be glad that alot of solitus enforcers are still shade food. Your main problem with sneaking up on a trox enfo is their truckloads of HP. Otherwise, they have high AR, it's just what they do. Reducing their def would be very nice though. Also, I've heard that our spirits are going to be combined in the rebalance, so that you have your def+AR. If we had access to more AR at that point it would be just plain over the top because cycling DoF+Limber is about all that would be necessary to get past a lot of damage. (Personally I'm not holding my breath on combined spirits)

Nano resist:
Everything lands on us, whether we want it to or not. As twinked as I can figure, I have about 2.1k NR...MA's without HHAB on have more NR than that. Help us out some on this please!
-NR is unreliable as it is. Also, you're an evade class, it would be silly to not have a weakness. With the incoming AS nerfs, our NR should stay low, or as some of the more brazen Shades have done, gone NR.



Everything I'm about to type is from my Opi AR setup shade in flagged pvp and BS. Duels are a completely different setting. I'm also assuming you're talking about 210-220 BS if you are doing BS, since you mention enfos with 3k static def.

Docs-
I can't complain at all, if anything docs should get a little help against us. Shades > docs in 1v1 pvp.
-Most of the time, it's a game of outlast if they see you. Docs are also capable of wielding the AS pistol, and its a goodnight shade situation. High HP docs and their awesome healing capabilities make it a bit more difficult to toe it with them. Alphaing them, for me at least, is a 70/30 proposition as long as they can't see me.

Engineers-
If they have AS gun, I might as well just /terminate. If not, I have a chance to alpha them before their stupid high AR pets eat me. DROP PETS AR PLEASE! ITS TOO HIGH!
-A good engineer won't die to you if it's just you. But you are an assasin in PVP, not a tank. Use chaos to your advantage. If the engi has an AS pistol, yeah you'll get hit. Their pets are easily circumvented, your SP perkline will massively increase your survivability to those pets (also with your acrobat perk up), and your TR perkline will heal you so much more than using it on the engi. Though, if you have TR left and you're doing fine on the HP, your TR line will **** any coon an engi puts up.

MP's-
Not applicable, not pvp'd a whole lot of them
-My hats off to a few MPs. But for the most part, don't expect to perk them if they wield their shield (even if you're SP drained up). If they have their bow up, they are quick drops. They can kill you in either setup too. Their pets are circumventable.

Crat's-
Can't perk, cant land nanos on, only able to hit them with SA and hope that our procs land. which, there's nothing wrong with their evades, it's our AR. Help us please!
-You can perk crats, it just takes a proper situation. I believe Norveg (sorry if I didn't spell your name correctly) has died to my shade a few times toe to toe, and he's killed me off too. It's alot of fun to fight him, as it could swing either way. Your problem with crats is likely that they aren't alone, in which you shouldn't expect to win.

Fixers-
why can they perk us? (for the record, I have about 3.8k static evades [no perks up]) am I missing something? when did they get dumb amounts of AR? pretty much same thing with crats. SA and hope that the procs land. Also, whoever thought that program override was a good idea deserves a swift kick to the nuts, seriously? take away my acro perks?
-It's possible to kill a fixer, just don't expect it to happen more than once a year even if they aren't wielding the onehander. Your SA is all you have as far as weapons, otherwise you will get a random hit/land, and your SHD will start to rip up their low HP sooner or later. With the incoming roots/snares/AS changes, you're not gonna have much issue with them once you get to running.

Advy's-
Pistol-you'll get alphad or survive to the 2nd alpha, won't be able to do enough dmg to do anything to them really. Only SA and procs will do anything really to them (unfortunately, they have so much heals you need the stun proc to do anything to them)


Melee-pretty much same as pistol except a little less OP. You're still gonna get ownd
-They are still perkable. You don't even need 5k AR to do it, you need to time things right. Your main concern with them is their ability to see you and your inability to do anything to them from thereon (once they detect you, they will react to survive it). You have a few perks at your disposal to check for perkability without compromising your sneak (this will likely change after rebalance however) if they can't see you. But even in def setup your evades will mean mostly nothing.

other shades-
It's like a cripple fight
-If you come across a shade that's been finished in their setup and their perks, don't expect to win it. If you're both equal, expect it to be a very long or very short fight.

Keepers-
Yeah, we have nem nano, big woop. Not like we have enough AR to do anything to them. They still evade everything we have, and even have healing enough to out heal anything we do to them.
-You do have the AR to deal it off to them. Actually, only a few keepers I dislike fighting (Hi Thapiggy and Obkeep). I still have issue using the nemesis nano on them, because it does suck to have to rebuff so much. It's up to you to click that button and up to them to deal with it I suppose. Your DR nano will be changed anyway. But once you SP them there's not a whole lot that they can hit you with without Mongo Rage.

Soldiers-
Can't complain about them, unless they have the stupid AS carbine (nerf this weapon please...or better yet, nerf AS)
-AS nerf incoming.

Agents-
If it's in evade setup you probably won't win, if not, it's a 50/50 chance you could win, depends on who sees who first. And even then, it depends on who can kite/defend against a kite better
-They're easy enough to kill. So are you. It's a pretty fair game in either case really. Your option is to hug conceal as much as they do and use the chaos of a skirmish to your advantage. They aren't root graft immune either.

MA-
AS, Ice arrows, SA, brawl, dimach dead shade. nuff said
-What can we say? They're superior. Nerfing their evades is simply destroying that class, and giving us the ability to perk them without sacrificing def would be OP. On that, though, avoid 'em.

Tarder-
I don't even stay in bs if I see these anymore, it's no point. (when 1 trader can kill a whole team of the opposite faction, that's just stupid)
-Yes, 1 trader drain and you're out of the game, 2 trader drains is superfluous. If you see one and you are sneaked, it is completely in your favor however.

NT-
Our worst enemy. They should have the biggest nerf of all when it comes to shade pvping them. I tested this extensively, and I can say that there's no possible way for us to beat them if they are setup a certain way.
-Sneak. Once it's focused on another target, all it can do is run once it realizes half of its HP bar was chewed off in less than a second.

May your perks land.

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MP's-
Not applicable, not pvp'd a whole lot of them

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Bow MPs instakilled by shades,
Shield MPs instakilled by shades under MR

So, you got 3.8 static evades and 2.8k AR?

In my experience:

Doc: easy to kill, even when they're in a team you can kill them in a few seconds.
Agents: Die almost instantly if you can get in their range
Enfos: They can't hit me and I can kill them quick. Once had two of them trying to kill me and I killed both.
Soldiers: ams is very annoying but they can't hit me after I use the full drain perk line on them, you can easily outlast ams in those situations and do something else.
MP without shield: very easy kill because MP's don't get any love.
MP with shield: best to ignore cause can't perk them or hit them, but MP pets are theonly pets with low AR so you won't really notice them. You could kill a pet, only takes 5 seconds anyway.
Engy: these are op in pvp, though perks will land I've never encountered an engy that din't go on to coon and bio rejuv. If they want they can be unkillable by shades. Their pets can land some hits.
NT: another op prof, don't even bother going NR because NT's have an op nano to kill your NR anyway and it will land through 5k NR. This prof is just op. Everytime I see one they do their way to powerful alpha and have 90-100% reflects. Oh and some are unperkable. It's not only shade that has a problem with these, all profs have problems with NT's cause they can alpha anything.
Keepers: unperkable and specials barely touch their hp and they heal instantly.
Crats: unperkable, they root, they area root, their pets can hit cause they're not MP. Just can't do anything against them besides SA and backstab (if it doesn't miss). If you drain their pets you still don't have enough AR to perk them but their pets won't be so dangerous.
Advy: unperkable, basically can't do anything against advies and they have so many specials
MA: unperkable, can't do anything against them and they can stun and do high damage
Trader: if you see them first you can alpha them, if they drain you there is not much you can do.

Shades can get 3.3k AR self with drains or 4.3k def permanently if you keep drains up and cycle perks well. 4k def perma without drains, that's a lot.
It's a choice you have to make, we're the only prof that can just switch setups on the fly and can reach good numbers on both offense and defense, just not at the same time.
We're deffenitly best when sneaking up on someone.

Look at MP, they can't reach our AR or def no matter what they do, plus their pets are the only worthless ones in pvp that can't hit crap. Shade isn't so bad if you try out MP.

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Originally Posted by Weltall

So, you got 3.8 static evades and 2.8k AR?

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Dude, that's practically SoZ MP stats, it sucks. ;)

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Originally Posted by Nesja

.....but MP pets are theonly pets with low AR so you won't really notice them.


plus their pets are the only worthless ones in pvp that can't hit crap. Shade sn't so bad if you try out MP....

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Rihwen has higher AR than Carlo.

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Originally Posted by crattey

Rihwen has higher AR than Carlo.

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Bot has higher (or at least close to) AR then Rihwen + extra damage proc(s).

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Originally Posted by -Klod-

Bot has higher (or at least close to) AR then Rihwen + extra damage proc(s).

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You're saying that as if I don't know it :) (Though a 5% chance 2-3k proc is hardly an extra) I think the CEO has slightly higher AR than Rihwen, even, since we got Corporate Strategy.

All of which is besides the point. I was merely pointing out that the Rihwen is hardly worthless, certainly not to the extent the above poster was trying to make it appear. This:

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Originally Posted by Nesja

...Crats: ..their pets can hit cause they're not MP...

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is a gross misrepresentation of reality, and I do so like to point those out :p

I ran around with nearly 3.2k AR and had a great time on my shade unless I was rooted. Far easier for me to kill people with shade than my enf unless I go full out AR setup as well. If I wanted, I could get over 3.3k AR and with the APF proc and using Blur I would bet keepers and advy would even be perkable.

If we can perk it, it will die.

Keepers: unperkable and specials barely touch their hp and they heal instantly.

LOL!

My how the thread can stray.

In any case, to the OP, don't gauge your performance or set your standards based off of any experience you have. It's best to just enjoy it. For instance:

I've perked MAs, shades, fixers, advies, and crats. They died, I won. It means absolutely nothing, and don't take it as a measure of anything else, because I could/have run into them again and again and I may insta splat them, and I might get nailed to the wall despite what happened in previous encounters. Any number of factors play into those sitations: gear (and that goes further into belt/NCUs/HUDs/utils/armor/neckboard/yada yada, alphas being a major one as well), their perks may have not been up, they may have been debuffed, you may have been ninja buffed or affected by a friendly AoE, and so on.

You will run into a player that you wasted with little effort that you can't kill again, you will run into a doc that just will not die and you will run into docs that splat easily, you will run into the enfo that runs from you, you will run into the NT that roots you, triples you, and just in time you ran them down and insta splatted them (that was a fun one). You will run into so many situations and you will come out with so many varied outcomes that you cannot sit back and call it good or bad.

And being a shade, you are going to EPIC fail gank alot, and you will wtf-out-of-nowhere murder alot. It's part of the fun.

With the incoming rebalance, AS is getting nerfed more than it has any right to (100% interrupt chance on melee hits) and the 3 second cast time if the user isn't concealed (I'm okay with this if it stays at 11 second cap instead of moving to 20 or so seconds). And roots/snares will be on cooldown timers so 1 person can't keep you in place as long as their nanopool allows. Shades are getting great passive PVP boosts, the only thing we can wait to see are the runspeed changes, and whether or not we get a sneak speed boost. And since most of our perks are chained, the majority of your perks will still fire at 1 second instead of the 2 second sweep over all professions.

tldr version: it's not so bad. It will get better according to what little information we've gotten, with the exception of our SP perkline's debuffs lasting only 15 seconds (which is necessary to defeat a few professions considering that by the time you're done with all your SP perking you've got maybe 5 seconds to squeeze in a kill or gtfo). The SP perking should still be fine against pet professions if you perk their pets instead of them.

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Originally Posted by Gatester

I ran around with nearly 3.2k AR and had a great time on my shade unless I was rooted. Far easier for me to kill people with shade than my enf unless I go full out AR setup as well. If I wanted, I could get over 3.3k AR and with the APF proc and using Blur I would bet keepers and advy would even be perkable.

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The APF proc is a nice -200 evade close combat (and a NR debuff as well for the higher proc instead of the lower one; you will get 2 from your blue box), but the APF proc isn't so reliable from what I've seen. Blur is a much better bet, but you should still always cast that APF proc. Keepers are perkable now, advies are less so but your assassin role dictates you gotta be keen on the timing.

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Originally Posted by Gatester

If we can perk it, it will die.

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Almost completely true.

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Originally Posted by crattey

You're saying that as if I don't know it :) (Though a 5% chance 2-3k proc is hardly an extra) I think the CEO has slightly higher AR than Rihwen, even, since we got Corporate Strategy.

All of which is besides the point. I was merely pointing out that the Rihwen is hardly worthless, certainly not to the extent the above poster was trying to make it appear. This:



is a gross misrepresentation of reality, and I do so like to point those out :p

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He's more or less right, since crats have (more or less, again :)) working CC tools and two attack pets. So yeah, Rihwen is, indeed (more or less), worthless. :D

i say author of thread need to twink and l2play shade

i bet most ppl read that will agree, just pointless crying of someone who failing at pvp and blame game for that

Tarder-
I don't even stay in bs if I see these anymore, it's no point. (when 1 trader can kill a whole team of the opposite faction, that's just stupid)

is this thread for real?or is the op on dope lol

On my tl7 shade i never faced such problems too.

I found that Engies are fearsome, but their pets have a terrible pathing, is very easy stuck em somewhere else than ur back.

Nts, well if u "/shout Nuke me i didn't perked nr".. u are dead. If u grab an nt from sneaking, and having Quintessence of Transfixion/Stupefication running, means dead nt.

Engies are rough, but I find the best option is to scare them into using cocoon with some weaker perks and run off for a few seconds.

And sure, it sucks being easy to kill in an AR based setup, but when I am the "second" attacker I feel very comfortable with the shade profession. I have more problems being melee than being a shade but not everyone suffers from that the same either.

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MP with shield: best to ignore cause can't perk them or hit them, but MP pets are theonly pets with low AR so you won't really notice them.

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Shield MP pet will eat shade fast, if shade will not kite or kill the pet =)
Dont forget about +300ar pet buf for shield MP and another 280ar from perks.

Even if non-trox shade kill the pet, shield MP is able to recast it in the fight.
I was recasting my Rihwen like 10 times once I fight an opi shade.