Kiry, noone has been exploiting anything
Quote:
Originally posted by Kiryat-Dharin
Inits.
I feel no pity whatsoever for anyone who was exploiting bugged inits to scope heavily and not have to worry about the recharge portion of their weapon cycle. So they have to change.
Oh ****ing well.
Sorry, but no one is going to convince me that a bug fix is a bad change. Learn to use different weapons, different tactics. If in the process this reduces the damage that docs and traders (and NT *weapons*) do, well, to me that seems a step towards restoring the game to the original vision of soldiers, enforcers, MAs as primary physical damage dealers, with NTs and agents contributing hefty damage via nukes + weapon and AS + weapon respectively.
Yeah, MAs will hit a little faster. So? They already cap. If they scope for the extra crits, this'll *hurt* them more than it helps. If they don't, they'll just be sitting at a lower aggdef, so they'll be harder to hit. Doesn't change their damage output at all.
Jynne said it better, and more politely, than I can at this point. This enhances the abilities of professions who rely on high inits (fixer, soldier in many cases, enforcer, agent, any profession wearing slow recharge weapons) and decreases the effectiveness of scopes. It really is that simple. Stop trying to make it out to be more than it is.
It still take s a LOT of IP to get a scope on....especially for Atroxes.
I have a lot of weapons in my arsenal, and I have tested them thorougly. Being a dmg dealing prof tends to make you search very hard for something that works...both for dmg/time and max dmg on alpha strike.
Shall we see...E-beamer, Armwerks, Seburro, Nova, IEC, Techtronica, CHS, HGB, River6, Tellus, Freedom arms, XM laser, Heavy grinner, Blackhole, Sunburst, x-3 Flamethrowers, Martins.... even a sword in my early days so I could do dimach ...lol.
Implants for defensive buffs, Implants for attack rating, A mix between those... I have a long list of what I have tested.
Currently I can use anything except shotguns. And none! Not even the Martins rifle they took out do enough damage to be a real threat to anyone except som poor nanomage in rez. The healing profs outheal anything those weapons can do. And since crit is still available to them through self buff and scopes. They just became a lot stronger (relatively speaking)
For those that rely on scopes to have any chance at all this will be a disaster. The traders and MA`s wont be bothered by this fix since their abilities wont be touched.
Wether MA`s cap or not isnt the issue. The issue is that they will retain their immense speed, UVC and scopes. For the trader its the same...but with debuffs insted of UVC.
This further imbalances things...
Re: Kiry, noone has been exploiting anything
Quote:
Originally posted by Beartwo
Wether MA`s cap or not isnt the issue. The issue is that they will retain their immense speed, UVC and scopes. For the trader its the same...but with debuffs insted of UVC.
This further imbalances things...
WRONG!
If the MA scopes, then he's hurt by this change. If the MA doesn't scope, then he's aided. How hard is this to understand?
MA with scope = much slower MA.
MA with no scope = less crits for the MA.
As to traders, the same goes, and they're even more crit-dependent than an MA; shotty damage kinda sucks if you aren't critting. So, if they stick on the scope to maximize crits, they're going to do WORSE now because the init debuff on the scope will take full effect. If they leave the scope off, they won't crit.
Simple, isn't it?
The only valid point you made is in relation to healing; there, I agree. It's hard to do enough damage to take down a healing class as is, and will probably become harder now. That said, that's an entirely different issue than this, and needs to be addressed whatever happens with inits.
Are you purposefully ignoring the fact that the people you're complaining most about (MA scopers, trader shotty scopers) are the ones HURT the most by this? Or are you just stupid?
Re: Re: Kiry, noone has been exploiting anything
Quote:
Originally posted by Kiryat-Dharin
WRONG!
If the MA scopes, then he's hurt by this change. If the MA doesn't scope, then he's aided. How hard is this to understand?
MA with scope = much slower MA.
MA with no scope = less crits for the MA.
As to traders, the same goes, and they're even more crit-dependent than an MA; shotty damage kinda sucks if you aren't critting. So, if they stick on the scope to maximize crits, they're going to do WORSE now because the init debuff on the scope will take full effect. If they leave the scope off, they won't crit.
Simple, isn't it?
The only valid point you made is in relation to healing; there, I agree. It's hard to do enough damage to take down a healing class as is, and will probably become harder now. That said, that's an entirely different issue than this, and needs to be addressed whatever happens with inits.
Are you purposefully ignoring the fact that the people you're complaining most about (MA scopers, trader shotty scopers) are the ones HURT the most by this? Or are you just stupid?
Since when did this end up in namecalling?
I think I have asked a resonable question, without childish language, so please be grown up enough to answer in a normal fashion!
I will elaborate a little on the MA/trader theme.
What stops them from upping and implanting their inits just like me?
Then they can (just like me) scope their little hearts away and get all the benefits from this...Except they cant fight at full def anymore.
I dont know what speed an MA can normally hit with, but I am pretty sure he/she can get above 784 init(my scopes init penalty). I know their fists are faster than any gun I have (except maybe some of the flamehrowers).
So how is it that they are being penalized? They can still use the scope for another +15% (or whatever scope they have). They have a some of the fastest weapons which in turn needs less aggbar to fire/hit fast while leaving evades high enough to overcome my atk rating.
The only penalty is agg/def bar setting ...they will still crit like mad.
Re: Re: Re: Kiry, noone has been exploiting anything
Quote:
Originally posted by Beartwo
Since when did this end up in namecalling?
Since people chose to completely ignore the rest of the post and re-ask questions that are answered. Since people choose to whine that things are going to change, but don't stop to think about how they're going to change. Since people BLATANTLY disregard the explanation of the change, and just whine about thier pet peeves instead, despite the fact that the change is a mini-nerf to those pet peeves.
Quote:
I will elaborate a little on the MA/trader theme.
What stops them from upping and implanting their inits just like me?
Then they can (just like me) scope their little hearts away and get all the benefits from this...Except they cant fight at full def anymore.
Just like now, you mean? Only they can't fight at full def! So this is... an IMPROVEMENT. Yep, MAs/traders who are scoping will be hurt by this. Tell me once more why this is a bad thing?
Quote:
So how is it that they are being penalized? They can still use the scope for another +15% (or whatever scope they have). They have a some of the fastest weapons which in turn needs less aggbar to fire/hit fast while leaving evades high enough to overcome my atk rating.
Just like now. Only they'll have to be a fair deal further towards full aggro which means they'll be that much easier to hit. Once again, I fail to see why you're so upset about this.
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The only penalty is agg/def bar setting ...they will still crit like mad.
They have a +24% crit nano. Of course they're going to crit. The difference is, now they'll either do it slower or be easier to hit while they do it.
Once again, I have to ask: Are you purposefully ignoring the fact that the people you're complaining most about (MA scopers, trader shotty scopers) are the ones HURT the most by this? There is NO way for someone with a 15% scope to do better under this new ruleset than they do under the current ruleset. None.
The delta factor for this change can be considered as the difference between your positive init effects (buffs, implants, items, trickledown) and your negative init effects (debuffs, scopes).
Given that the maximum positive init effect while wearing a scope is on the order of 400-500 (trickle-down+implants+nanos), there is no possible way to do better with a 15% scope (-800). 8% scopes will probably not change your speed much at the high end, but won't help you either, situation normal. Low scopes will be allowed to become faster, as should be.
If you genuinely don't get what I'm saying, I'd be happy to run some math for you. But I'm getting pissed at the people who take this as an opportunity to whine about their pet peeves without realizing that this actually affects the peeves negatively.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Kiry, noone has been exploiting anything
The problem isnt in wether they will be penalized, the problem is that others will be penalized more, because they are so dependant on the damage they do! (crits= dmg)
You may think me slow and halfwitted, this will hurt the classes that are struggling the most with not being able to do enough damage more than it will traders and MA`s.
I am not ignoring anything, and if you read my post you will see that. The question is: Do the benefits of this fix outweigh the detriment? And does this fix penalize those scopers that use this bug today very much at all?
You dont have to think of maths to see it, its common sense. My best dmg dealing weapons are slow, theirs are fast and this is especially true in the case of the trader. Their .favourite weapon is insanely fast compared to most soldier weapons.
This means that they will be firing faster than me with a high ql scope, with extreme atk rating and therefore will crit more.
The MA doesnt have as high atk rating, but UVC makes up for it. I will always have to fight at full aggro while using a scope. They dont now, and they wont after this fix, since their firing rate is so much faster than mine already. So they still have a much higher crit chance than me, and better evades than me, even if this improves it slightly.
So where is the improvement? They cant go full def when they fight and still have the same hit rate? It doesnt take a lot to negate the 1.5 secs on the Ithaca, but it does on any 2-2,5sec + weapon.
The positive effects are not in balance with the negative effects as far as I can see. There are no weapons that I can use with a TIM scope that will get close to the dmg I can do with a CHS or Nova/IEC (with a scope).
If you can show me maths that say that a 1,5 second weapon is more adversely affected than a 2,5 sec weapon then I will agree.
Edit:
Thx for agreeing to peisinoe =P
Re: Forget this whole thread
Quote:
Originally posted by Beartwo
FC has (in its unfatomable wisdom) decided to nerf the nerfed scopes.....
How is that for a double negative?
They should have been nerfed to begin with. Leaving an item in the game that was worthy enough to nerf was backwards logic anyway. I'm glad for this chance.