I said they "can have" .. not "do have". :)Quote:
Originally posted by HighOrbit
I'm just curious 'cos I seem to have missed it...
I meant they deserved more in general. see above.
Printable View
I said they "can have" .. not "do have". :)Quote:
Originally posted by HighOrbit
I'm just curious 'cos I seem to have missed it...
I meant they deserved more in general. see above.
Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
What if Engineers get SMALLER tradeskill buffs. NOT self-only.
The result would be, that Traders maintain their position as the 'best',
but now Traders and Engineers can exchange buffs with eachother
and everyone ends up with more.
didn't like that idea?
I don't see any reason why we can't be equal at this. At the moment there is a highly limited number of both our professions listed, less traders than Engis which makes this even harder.
Both (Engi's and Traders) fully buffed Engi's are the best Engineering trade skills class (WS, ME, EE, QFT) and again both unbuffed Engi's are the best. The problem, as I see it, is that we spend most of our lives looking for buffs and it's frustrating in the extreme.
what about:
I would also like it if Engineers could build/summon temporary
stationary guns like those at outposts. Or other forms of 'traps'.
What about landmines with proximity detection?
Might get engies more involved in PvP.
I dont think it's genius. But I am making suggestions.
I am only arguing against Engies stealing the Traders position as best tradeskill class.
That's all.
Almost all of us at some point have suggested a range of bots, things suitable for each occasion. Station guns has come up and personally I'd love to be able to build more than one bot. However, FC never responds to that and we remain as we are.
The ability to build base guns (as an example) would be wonderful if they would institute capturable territories etc.
Anyway, this tends to drift away from the point of the thread.
I'm not entirely sure how you can steal a position as the best trade skill class. Does it really matter that much?? If the result of this was actually beneficial for both professions wouldn't that be far more constructive???
Do you have a thriving business based on these skills?? I'm pretty sure Engi's get asked for the trade skills more, and I've never ever seen a trader advertise them, since we all know that if traders advertise they get asked for wrangles everytime they walk into a public place.
A while ago on this thread someone said we shouldn't draw comparisons between real life professions and those in here, which struck me as an incredibly stupid point. How can we not do that?? They use the same titles most of us work with everyday, there shouldn't be any question about us comparing it wouldn't make sense and would confuse the hell out of half the players.
You're not making any comment on proposals to differentiate the two classes though. Your position seems to be that Engineers should have only the same tradeskill options as Traders, but that Traders should be better at it.Quote:
Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
I am only arguing against Engies stealing the Traders position as best tradeskill class.
That's all.
Tradeskills are already differentiated elsewhere. If you want implants built, go to an MP or NT (and NT's are getting their own NP buffline, by the way). If you want clusters stripped from those implants, hire yourself a Fixer. Two steps to the process, involving more professions in tradeskills.
Saying "Traders must remain the best" serves only to exclude other classes. Differentiating the processes by profession serves to include more classes, without taking anything from the Traders' current abilities or buffing another profession to make them superior.
Minor bufflines: I've proposed it myself. The problem is getting that numerical balance right. If the buffs require Psych. Mod. or Sense Imp. then all they'll do is suck IP away from other areas, which makes calculating the correct size for the buff a bit of a guess. At the end of the day, one prof or the other will always have the biggest numbers next to their skills, which is why I think differentiation is the way to go.
Bufflines which take the Engineers' skills above those of the Trader are tantamout to a nerf for the Trader. Bufflines which leave the Trader in a position of superiority do nothing to solve the current problem for Engineers (namely a bunch of light-green skills they may as well not bother putting IP into). In my opinion, leaving the numbers as they are and differentiating the processes each profession engages in resolves the issue by removing the conflict.
In a perfect world, any new process that Engineers excelled at would be available to other professions also. However, since there is no tradeskill line that Engineers dominate, that's not really an option, hence the proposal for prof. specific tools for new processes.
Thoughts?
~R~
Quote:
Originally posted by HighOrbit
I'm not entirely sure how you can steal a position as the best trade skill class. Does it really matter that much??
Perhaps the Doctor vs Trader threads, and subsequent nerfs,
have given me my attitude about this. But if that's the way
players want to make the game, then fine.
It matters as much that Traders are the unequalled tradeskill class
as it does that Doctors are the unequalled healing class.
to put it in SAT form:
Pre-nerf Trader healing is to Doctor healing as Engineer tradeskills are to Trader tradeskills.
Sure. But engineer-only tradeskill do not benefit both professions.Quote:
If the result of this was actually beneficial for both professions wouldn't that be far more constructive???
Self-only Engineer tradeskill buffs do not benefit both professions.
Those are the requests I am arguing against.
My trader is on hold right now. (like most traders)Quote:
Do you have a thriving business based on these skills??
Until funcom figures out what our role in teams is.
In teams, I was always the healer, I cannot do that now.
Other professions are better mezers. Wrangles are for pre-buffs only.
I can lend the doc some nano now, but that's about it.
I find it hard to get motivated to level given our current situation.
That is the dominant attitude of the trader community right now.
Before 14.4, I did do tradeskills.
I did nanoprogramming. I built my own chamical mausser.
I didnt care if it was uber, it was good roleplay to build my own weapon.
And once I get a good reason to play my trader again,
I will be building my own armor too.
I have been with the game so long that I didn't advertise my services.
I have enough money. I just helped people when they asked.
This is the biggest problem. Assumptions.Quote:
A while ago on this thread someone said we shouldn't draw comparisons between real life professions and those in here, which struck me as an incredibly stupid point. How can we not do that?? They use the same titles most of us work with everyday, there shouldn't be any question about us comparing it wouldn't make sense and would confuse the hell out of half the players.
I wish Funcom had been more creative with class titles.
Do you know why everyone wants Traders nerfed?
Because they are called 'Traders'.
Damage Dealers dont want "Merchants" competing with them.
Healers dont want "Merchants" competing with them.
and now Engineers dont want "Merchants" competing with them.
It is SO frustrating.
That is why I keep telling you
The NAMES, the DESCRIPTIONS, DO NOT matter.
The only thing that matters is the game rules.
Stop making assumptions.
Stop trying to change the game based on assumptions.
Stop asking for nerfs based on assumptions.
Get rid of all these pre-concieved biases.
Traders are the best making-stuff class.
If that doesnt fit with your mental image, it's your problem.
This Profession-only crap is ruining this game.Quote:
Originally posted by Soyuz
In a perfect world, any new process that Engineers excelled at would be available to other professions also. However, since there is no tradeskill line that Engineers dominate, that's not really an option, hence the proposal for prof. specific tools for new processes.
Thoughts?
It's no less awful than level restrictions.
This was suppsoed to be a skill-based game.
It makes no sense that I cant pick up a BBI faithful and pull the trigger.
It makes no sense that a Trader couldnt use the same tool as an Engineer.
Making all this new stuff profession-only is just lazy gamedesign.
There is no grey area. Either the game is skill-based or it's not.
Anyone should be able to wear any armor if they meet the ability reqs.
Anyone should be able to use any weapon if they meet the skill reqs.
That is the definition of a skill-based game.
When you get into the retarded "Mages can't use swords" rules,
then we're backpeddling into the stone age of RPGs.
The only thing that is supposed to seperate classes
are the IP costs, skill caps, and nanoformulas.
Then it was up to us to make choices about what to invest in,
and at what sacrifice.
Now you want to draw a line between tradeskills?
Tell me what specifically Traders should be denied.
If we are ever truely able to customize weapons,
I shouldnt be allowed to? What highly desirable
widgets should I not be allowed to produce? Why?
What would to tell all us vertan traders who have been
working just as hard an engineers to get tradeskills improved?
Sure. But engineer-only tradeskill do not benefit both professions.
Self-only Engineer tradeskill buffs do not benefit both professions.
Those are the requests I am arguing against.
These I will argue against as much as you do. They're counter productive.
My trader is on hold right now. (like most traders)
Until funcom figures out what our role in teams is.
In teams, I was always the healer, I cannot do that now.
Other professions are better mezers. Wrangles are for pre-buffs only.
I can lend the doc some nano now, but that's about it.
I find it hard to get motivated to level given our current situation.
That is the dominant attitude of the trader community right now.
This is off topic, and I think best left since it'll only get us started about the same thing ;-)
Before 14.4, I did do tradeskills.
I did nanoprogramming. I built my own chamical mausser.
I didnt care if it was uber, it was good roleplay to build my own weapon.
And once I get a good reason to play my trader again,
I will be building my own armor too.
I have been with the game so long that I didn't advertise my services.
I have enough money. I just helped people when they asked.
I do trade skills in the same way. It can be nice to help people out. But don't you agree that in general the trade skill requirements are too high to make them available to the remainder of the players.
This is the biggest problem. Assumptions.
I wish Funcom had been more creative with class titles.
Do you know why everyone wants Traders nerfed?
Because they are called 'Traders'.
Damage Dealers dont want "Merchants" competing with them.
Healers dont want "Merchants" competing with them.
and now Engineers dont want "Merchants" competing with them.
It is SO frustrating.
I don't want traders nerfed again either. And at the beginning of this thread Krabbus stated the same.
That is why I keep telling you
The NAMES, the DESCRIPTIONS, DO NOT matter.
The only thing that matters is the game rules.
Stop making assumptions.
Stop trying to change the game based on assumptions.
Stop asking for nerfs based on assumptions.
Get rid of all these pre-concieved biases.
Traders are the best making-stuff class.
If that doesnt fit with your mental image, it's your problem.
Unfortunately it isn't just my mis-conception, this carries throughout the game and was bound to happen whilst they chose near-real life profession names and titles. Bad choice / design by Funcom.
And while you're correct in that it is my problem, it's also not what the manual states, and you shouldn't have to look further than the manual for an accurate description. So again, bad documentation and design by Funcom.
Anyway, I have no desire at all to take away or diminish your trade skill abilities. That would be contrary to the points I have been trying to make.
In general I believe trade skills are badly designed. There are too difficult for the required market. For example I may be able to build QL180 discs by I dunno... level 195... And there really aren't that many 190+ traders and engi's.
The fact that the Shape Armour PPPEs are so very rare strikes me as absolutely stupid and to make matters worse they are Ql60 boss drop only. Unfortunately I don't have 200 million to buy these items. And these are only the tools.
Trade skills should increase social interaction, ie more than can: you make a QL189 disc followed by the answer no.
I've got news for you: this game isn't skill-based, and it hasn't been since day one. If it was a truly skill-based game, I'd be able to use your buff nanos and we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.Quote:
Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
There is no grey area. Either the game is skill-based or it's not.
For that matter, how about the Trader-only shop? Why is that not a skill-based terminal?
~R~
Ok I'll give in again and try a slightly different angle
FC have catagorically said (in the nano level reqs thread IIRC) that no one profession should be able to work _completely_ on its own (much to the anger of soloists). The _plan_ is that all professions should offer something that none of the other can get otherwise.
So having said that and looking over the Trader I come to a couple of conclusion as to what they offer that is unique to them:
Wrangles and best Tradeskills
Then looking at the Engineer I come up with:
Nothing at all (i.e. we all know the bot doesnt count for numerous reasons)
While I accept the Traders dont want anymore nerfs, if the Engineer did become #1 at Tradeskills _at least_ the Trader would still have _something_ (i.e. wrangles) that were in demand by players (and still have tradeskills given the low number of active Engineers)
The above example also assumes that Traders tradeskills are nerfed, since we are asking for an Engineer fix and not a Trader nerf, Traders would still be as useful as they are now and have lost nothing, but Engineers have gained a much needed boost in one area.
-In other news-
I believe the implant disassembly clinic is currently usable by anyone (but one of the components is only available from the Fixer shop) but I have heard this will be 'fixed' in 14.6
-Summary-
Class-specific stuff is part of the game design like it or not. Its how FC tries to encourage player interaction, player driven economy and teaming. The argument about 'playing the game as it is, not how it says it should be' is applicable to this as much as to the class descriptions.
In other words, the game has class unique stuff, live with it and accept it. All we need to do now is get something 'class-specific' for the Engineer class.
Quote:
Originally posted by Soyuz
I've got news for you: this game isn't skill-based, and it hasn't been since day one. If it was a truly skill-based game, I'd be able to use your buff nanos and we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.
For that matter, how about the Trader-only shop? Why is that not a skill-based terminal?
~R~
I dont like "classes".
I do believe that anyone should be able to use anything,
including nano formulas
However, that's my opinion. I didn't make the rules.
So, accepting that there are classes, and that those classes
are determined by IP costs and nano formulas, then I make
my choice of which class to play based on the reasons presented.
But I dont appreciate the rules being changed
after choices that cannot be changed have already been made.
I dont appreciate the rules being changed arbitrarily mid-game.
Is that a difficult thing to relate to?
And re: your other issue, the 'Trader shop'..
.. um.. do you know what is in that shop?
I wouldnt even notice if they were removed from game.
That is hardly the type of 'shop' Traders have been asking for.
If Engineers get an engie-only shop full of overpriced mediocre weapons
that are only useful to other professions, I promise not to complain.
;)
:sigh: how do wrangles help me?Quote:
Originally posted by Warlock
While I accept the Traders dont want anymore nerfs, if the Engineer did become #1 at Tradeskills _at least_ the Trader would still have _something_ (i.e. wrangles) that were in demand by players (and still have tradeskills given the low number of active Engineers)
I click a button. You get buffed. I turn into a gimp.
You might be surprised to learn that isn't fun.
Wrangles are for everyone elses benefit. They dont help me.
Tradeskills help me. I can build stuff I can use myself.
That's what I wanted. I wanted to build/customize/invent.
I am a Trader, not your overequiping buff whore.
I do not play this game so I can spam "wrangling for tips" all day.
And you can have it.Quote:
All we need to do now is get something 'class-specific' for the Engineer class.
But it may not limit the main tradeskill classes ability to build/customize/invent.
Who said anything about helping yourself?Quote:
Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
:sigh: how do wrangles help me?
If you re-read my post I said that FC planned it so that every class should have something unique that _every other class_ would need.
So logically other classes need to help you to do stuff? Thats how you get help.
Dont blame me, I didnt design it!
lol.Quote:
Originally posted by Warlock
If you re-read my post I said that FC planned it so that every class should have something unique that _every other class_ would need.
So logically other classes need to help you to do stuff? Thats how you get help.
you just defeated the engie arguement then.
I have tradeskill buffs you need.
You dont like needing them.
And that's what starts this debate. ;)
It was never debated that Traders had something other professions need.Quote:
Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
lol.
you just defeated the engie arguement then.
I have tradeskill buffs you need.
You dont like needing them.
And that's what starts this debate. ;)
The point of this entire thread is that the Engineers simply have nothing to offer other professions.
err have you actually read this thread dude?Quote:
Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
lol.
you just defeated the engie arguement then.
I have tradeskill buffs you need.
You dont like needing them.
And that's what starts this debate. ;)
See Highorbits post - cant be bothered to waste my 'breath' (again)
The point behind the Trader shop, as I understand it, is that you get better prices selling loot back to that terminal than to any other terminal in the game. It fits nicely in with the Trader's merchant aspect.Quote:
Originally posted by Unhappy Trader
And re: your other issue, the 'Trader shop'..
.. um.. do you know what is in that shop?
I wouldnt even notice if they were removed from game.
That is hardly the type of 'shop' Traders have been asking for.
Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge you it, nor do I begrudge the Fixers their shop or their implant tools. I don't even begrudge you your superior tradeskill buffs. As HighOrbit pointed out, the problem with the Engineer class is that we have absolutely nothing that anyone else wants. Once there's a reason to go to an Engineer, whether it's for a buff, for tradeskill work or for the power that they bring to a team, then and only then will I be happy. The trick is to get it without making anyone else obsolete in the process, since as I said before that doesn't solve the problem, merely shifts it onto another profession.
Personally I wouldn't wish the Engineer's current leper status on anyone...
~R~
Yes, but what some engineers wanted, was what the Trader has.Quote:
Originally posted by HighOrbit
It was never debated that Traders had something other professions need.
The point of this entire thread is that the Engineers simply have nothing to offer other professions.
Some engineers think they should be the tradeskill masters.
Some engineer think they should get engineer-only tradeskills.
That would not be fair. That's what got me into this discussion.
It's a cop-out is what it is. Traders wanted their own shops,Quote:
Originally posted by Soyuz
The point behind the Trader shop, as I understand it, is that you get better prices selling loot back to that terminal than to any other terminal in the game. It fits nicely in with the Trader's merchant aspect.
so that they could sell merchandise to other players,
without sitting on the shop-channel all day.
If you are going to mass-produce tradeskill items,
you need a place to display them.
This is the job for a machine or NPC, not a human being.
No player would endure the monotony of standing behind
a counter all day.
Right now, all it is a place to dump junk loot.
When you are higher level, and have a hundred million credits,
how much do you think you'd care about a 5-10% bonus on
an item that usually sells for 30K. This is not something other
professions can point to and say "that's the reason to play a trader!"
If you really want to use it, spend 1 DAY getting an alt to 25,
and then you can mule all your loot. You will find it's not worth the trouble.
Tho this is not really relevant to the discussion, but I didnt bring it up.
Engineers should get something. I keep repeating it.
Engineers are a profession that needs more to fill it out.
I feel the same way about traders post-nerf.
Almost all of our nano lines are now broken and/or useless.
The two professions are closely tied, and if Funcom wants
to do something that improves both, awesome.
But the Traders should always have the tradeskill edge.
Engineers should get their own special abilities not related to normal tradeskills.
Like building/summoning other pets and larger equipment.
I see the engineer as the guy who builds/designs outpost
artilery and maintains the slayerdroids and juggernauts.
You guys should be able to generate a Juggernaut somehow,
at extreme cost, for special occasions / large battles.
And stationary guns as mentioned. (they could only fire upon
enemy players to avoid problems w/ PvM) And I think landmines
that explode upon a player coming within X meters would be cool.
Focus on the bigger heavier military type stuff.
(I'm really hoping territory capture will finally come w/ the expansion)
Let the Traders maintain thier item-production advantage.
Off-topic, but I'll give you a short critique anyhow...
Sounds like you're proposing PvP gear for the Engineer, mostly high level. It's an ... interesting suggestion, given that the Engineer is pretty much a non-PvP class right now. You don't think we'd be stepping on anyone's toes if we suddenly jumped from gimped to competent in one easy step?
I can see some problems with the ideas, unfortunately. Correct, precise placement would be a nightmare, given the way bot shells work. For a static emplacement this would be a real handicap. Think about how difficult it is just to get your apartment furniture placed right, and you can click on the exact point you want for furniture - you can't for bots.
Secondly, and most importantly, this adds nothing to the Engineer's desirability to teams if it's all PvP only. Juggernauts, while a nice idea in theory, will run afoul of the same problems with pathing and navigation that affect the larger bots currently (mostly inability to get through doors and tight spaces). If they're brutally expensive and high-level only, they're not even much good for the solo game.
Cheers,
~R~
yeah..
I'm giving you ideas with no real contemplation behind them
because people keep asking me what Engies should get,
if they can't steal the Traders stuff. Like there's no alternatives.
I often hear Engies saying they are useless in PvP,
so I did start thinking of stuff to fill that void.
It's a roleplay thing too. When you see an Engie
with a 12 foot Slayerdroid, you think big military hardware.
If we can get territory to defend, a guild could fund
an Engineer to produce a Juggernaut.
This would probably be an outdoor area we are holding.
And I dont see how those guns at outposts would pose positioning problems.
They already swivel around and shoot in all directions. It's just a stationary mob/pet.
You should get your Kami-bots.
But we don't know what they'll do yet.
Earlier I dreamed up Engie-produced tradeable "battlebot" pets.
Toys maybe, but people would want them. Just look at Wen-Wens.
I think that would be ok as Engie-only since pets are your thing.
You say you want stuff to make you more desirable to teams,
but the tradeskill stuff we've been arguing over wouldnt do that.
The high-level team-mission situation is totally screwed up.
At lower levels, having an Engie with a good bot is worth
putting up with pathing issues for. At higher levels, people
get more impatient. Hopefully more outdoor zones,
and expansions, and (one day) better pathing will help there.
A way to implement profession built items can be based off of the fixer grid concept. The fixer grid nano summons a nodrop temporary item which is then used on a grid terminal to access the fixer grid.
I propose that engineers get a nano line of "Manufacture widgets" which summons a nodrop temporary tradeskill component. That tradeskill component is then used in tradeskill recipes to make stuff. There should be 5 types of widgets, with the engineer gaining access to a new widget every 40 levels. Each widget should be a part of 4 or 5 different recipes. The various recipes should include custom/modified weapons and armor, custom/modified bot enhancements, and custom/modified utilities. The line focuses mainly on building/modifying equipable items.
Likewise, I propose that traders get a nano line of "Import luxury goods" which summons a nodrop temporary tradeskill component. They also get 5 types of widgets, spaced about 40 levels apart. These luxury widgets are used in making distinctive social clothing, stat altering foods and stims, custom furniture, and vehicle/clothing/armor tints. The line focuses mainly on building/modifying useable or placeable items.