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Best way to keep this going is to have VP upgrades to existing gear. Want to make multilayered combined armor?
Oooh, ****, I guess you need that upgrader which is 150K VP per piece.
Apply to everything. Hell the whole expansion should be nothing but VP upgrades for existing gear :P:P
Alternatively to loot tables, and if that is too complicated and not cost effective to do, maybe VPs should be given as rewards to missions (SL and RK), just like tokens today.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixOfAges
It is just that looting it from dead mobs seems awkward.
People who run around kamikaze chain capping everything, are obviously abusing the very reason why the whole place was created for , and not long ago they are also started abusing the fact any death penalty was removed, and you dont even have to rebuff to go straight back to kamikaze duty.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixOfAges
I can bet 10 $ dolla that designers of the place didnt have any idea there will be something like coordinated groups attempting to perform kamikaze 4-caps, lol.
They wanted to do a place where competing groups of players would beat the living **** out of each other, losing one would go to deco, winning one getting get to cap point an defend it or go to another that needs attention.
What we have instead, are groups of kamikaze cappers that run around and arent even interested in killing defenders, just hoping to cap for long enough so the 4-cap can kick in, and hoping not to die , survive and try to run to another control point.
But as i already pointed out, i dont blame the players, i blame the design.
I totaly agree, what we need is,,, hmm, maybe something like static mines that could be dropped around the entrances to M and the coriddors leading up to each cap point....Quote:
Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick
Maybe the mines could have like a snare on them, then people wouldnt be able to kamikaze to each point, they would just get snared and killed...
Nick your so smart i will go suggest it to devs right away!
Oh how I would love a proper PVM way to get VP. But it might kill GBS action. Well make it run less often at least.
Personally I think being able to get VP via PvM is a design flaw in general.
VP should only be obtainable through "scenario-PvP". Obviously a lot of "PvM'ers" will object to this notion but to be perfectly honest, they just need to get over themselves.
I'm betting a lot of people right now are itching in their fingers to write "That's ridiculous. I hate battlestation PvP and it's really horrible of you to suggest that we should be forced to PvP in order to get the stuff we want."
My reply to that is.. no one is forcing you to do anything. If you want VP-stuff then you got to work for it. Just like those who play this game mainly for the PvP will have to work to get everything else. If you don't enjoy PvP'ing then you HAVE options. Just use a different kind of armor or different kind of weapons. Think Ofab is the best option for you at a specific level range? Well, then do the work if you want it. I think Alien armor and Dust Brigade is pretty good and there's a lot of PvM gear that I want but I wont ask for PvP-ways of getting it. There is a time and a place for everything. VP-gear is the one and ONLY gear-reward for PvP'ing there is in AO. The rest is pure PvM. Even VP is slightly shared with PvM content as it is now with LE missions, which doesn't even make ANY sense in the first place.
I think the main problem here is that some people seem to feel that everything in a game should be designed to please pure PvM'ers one way or another. I strongly disagree. PvP is just as important to a MMO as PvM or tradeskills are. PvP is NOT a "silly wacky" addition to the game. It's a huge, important and BASIC part of a MMO. PVP'ers deserve their own content and achievements just as much as anyone, yet I'm not asking for equality. I just want this one thing to be for PvP'ers.
Let's take WoW as a random example. They didn't always have instanced PvP and a PvP-reward system. When it was introduced, Blizzard made sure that you had to be involved in a lot of PvP to get all that gear. Not JUST so that PvP'ers would have their own little island of content but also to keep some sense of pride in the PvP-gear. If you had a full set of PvP armor and PvP weapons then people would see you walk by and think "that's a dude that has a lot of PvP experience". If Blizzard made this PvP armor available also by farming sheep then that sense of pride would be destroyed.
There are many good reasons why other games have separated PvP-rewards with PvM. Another reason is to give PvP another purpose, another goal, another carrot to keep PvP active. PvP is one of the main supporting pillars of most MMO's and trying to make PvP-content more accessible via PvM is disrespectful to PvP and in a low population game like AO, it's just a BAD idea. Horrible and selfish idea.
To me, this whole thing is nothing more than a bunch of people that want a reward but don't enjoy the method of getting it, so they want to CHANGE the method in order to serve their own personal needs, whilst completely disregarding the fact that there are a lot of people who DO enjoy the method of getting it. Well, that's just pathetic. There are many sports I don't enjoy but I wont ask for gold medals in the grocery store because I don't like the original method of getting them. Medals, money, prestige and fame is part of the olympics. I wont ask for things to be changed so I can get a piece of that pie without getting in shape. If I want prestige and fame then there are other ways of getting that. I have options. So do pure PvM'ers. In fact, pure PvM'ers have ALL the options atm.
Maybe PvP titles should be given via PvM as well? Kill X amounts of mobs to get PvP titles. If you think it would be cool to have "captain" next to your name then you could go and kill 500 hecklers. Screw the dude that had fun being active in PvP to get it, now people will just assume he got it from being in a heckler pocket team. Who cares about him or what he thinks, it's all about what we want, right? As long as we get whatever we want, the way we want it, that's all that matters in the end. Having different perspectives and personalities and ways of having fun is just not important. Just sit back, I will stroke your hair and sing you a soft song while I have my little elves draw up this doctors degree diploma for you. I know you aren't a doctor but.. shhhhh *strokes hair*... all that matters is that you get it the way that is most comfortable for you.
"Hush little baby, don't say a word"
"Mommy's gonna get you an Ofab Bird."
"If that Ofab Bird won't swing"
"Mommy's gonna buy you an Ofab Ring."
*strokes hair*
Shhhh....
shhh....
If only it were so...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocene
That's a brilliant idea, lets also hire an army of Chinese slaves to plant those mines while other players can enjoy the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uaintseenme
Oh wait, i heard Engineer professional volunteered that Engineers can do it, and are also willing to pay for it too.
They should make BSs more attractive and functional to the people that want to PvP and go to them rather than just trying to drag those that don't want be there in to get them running. They made them as they were thinking those that don't want to PvP would go and like BSs since even if you sucked and couldn't stand a chance in a fight you'd have some function as a suicide capper, by meching up, going in a turret or something. Then later some may decide to make a PvP char so they can fight too. That didn't work right away so they tried dragging them there with a huge VP bump to BS to get all their vacant BSs going. That was within a month or so of launch but one of the things drawing people away then was the new AXP on demand that even the PvPers were plugging away at. They should have waited longer before making huge changes like those, the degree by which the VP was boosted was too much as well. In the end their intent and how they tried to make it a reality no matter what was the biggest problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick
There are a number of things they could do with BSs to draw the people that want to be there and make them more functional so they don't need to drag others in, at least as much if at all. Two or three generated teams out of all the people signed up rather than side vs side. That way so long as there's enough people in total signed up everyone goes in rather waiting around and you always have a chance to win the round so less people leaving. More layouts that could be randomly selected at the start. BS team chat channels. Other ways to win a round which are selected randomly at the start. RS buffs for lower BSs or allowing a round to start with as few as eight (in total) signed up if a round hasn't started in the last so many minutes. There are many others and all have been floating around for the past two years.
The game had always been PvM with PvP on the side so suddenly figuring they can try to make people like PvP in AO was the mistake. PvP people complain about having to do raids, gain lvls and such but it had always been a PvM game with PvP on the side so having to PvM in the game should have been expected. Although as they are making at least most raid zones instanced, some of their loot being tradable and lvling made easier over time those complaints are being addressed. VP though has been a stagnant issue since the excessive BS boosts that keeps resulting in long often heated threads.
VP gained on a kill automatically in missions like XP would be the ideal method. I've never been a fan of the idea of it all being just an end reward. Unless doing low lvl missions where you can even splatter the bosses there will be those that died just before the boss does so are zoned out and miss the reward. If they allowed those out of the zone, that zoned out in the last x minutes or were a long ways out (like at the door) to get the reward then that would be very easily abused. Then what about cases where the boss is just too much for your group? You did most of the mission, just not the last kill, RK and SL mission bosses can be wimps compare to LE mission bosses. Tokens can be earned in solo missions with no bosses as well as by turning in guns another player could have farmed. Placing sole importance on the boss kill in those missions for both VP and types is too much, make it worth doing sure but not all or nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocene
The surest way to control it, allow it to work reasonably and avoid most abuse is it functioning like XP and requires you to be within a certain range of the kill. It could still be abused by keeping the other char just out of harms way but the end bonus only idea would be even more easily abused plus adds the other problems.
Why do you keep trying to make it sound like placing mines is a huuuge undertaking? You press a button if you want to place a mine. If you don't want to place a mine, you don't press a button.Quote:
Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick
You make it sound like engies have to take off all their gear, sit down for 30 sec, then combine 17 items in their inventory to create 1 mine, then /petition FC to get permission to place the mine and then place it, then put on all gear again and then keep PvP'ing.
It's kinda like if someone gave you 1000$. They told you you can spend it on whatever you like or you don't even have to spend it at all. It's up to you. Then you start whining about the responsibility of having 1000$ in your wallet or the work needed to open a bank account and all kinds of stuff that is completely off the wall.
It just that he wants active combat, because controlling pets, defensive perks, throwing an AS around then and massively augmenting a team is you know, passive.
Not much point to discuss it here. So shortly, why do you keep trying to make it sound like it isnt? i already explained it to you , if you dont want to listen to reason, i can only suggest you to go and get some Battlestation /played on Battlestation with 220 Engineer, than come back discuss their matters once you get some perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrangeline
And i dont mean its so complicated or omg we are so nerfed everybody kills us but no one wants to believe me or other rubbish like that, but you need some personal view on how gameplay looks if you dont want to trust mine.
PS. I believe i told you about 27 times how much the "dont like it dont use it" argument is worth.
Cheers.
With 2 hour duration team auras, yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by K1nkstaah
This is really a VERY bad example. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Wrangeline
First, they dont GIVE me anything. I'm paying them.
Second of all , i dont get to choose what they give me. I can only give suggestions that i dont even know if they read them.
Last but not least, if 97 people out of 100 who pay them keep asking for 3 years for certain kind of content and keep receiving the exact opposite all the time , then this isnt a whining, its a legit complaint.
So yeah, as far as top 10 horrible examples go, i think your would make it there quite easily. :p
Now the correct example would be: i went to a brothel. They charged me in advance. I asked for a hooker with biggest tits. I had to wait 3 years in waiting room. Then they send me to a room when i found black male dude dressed as a Santa.
So i go down again, and then i meet this Wrangeline person who is very suprised, why i am complaining.
Ocene & Wrangeline:
You don't like VP gained in ways other than PvP but most VP buyable items aren't tagged PvP only plus can come in a wide range of QLs. I looked over the WoW rewards you can get for battle zones (or whatever they are called) a good ways back (so could have changed since). Most were high lvl items or PvP only if not high lvl plus you have to remember they have way more people. The situation between the two games is not the same. Also how many other games really allow you to get gear from PvP? UO, AO and maybe others used to let you kill and loot corpses (just those items that were not insured in AO) but as far as I know most to all dropped that. Many people as far as I know PvP as they like it, not as the game gives some reward aside from epeen.
With things as they are you get those that like IHaveHugeNick will complain that they feel the BSs aren't fun or as fun as they could be since there are those PvMers that suck at PvP and just try finish the round rather than fight. How ever the win method or other things could be changed with VP as it is there would still be those going to get their non-PvP only gear and try to get the round finished in a hurry or may just sign up and avoid going AFK. That's not good for you and it's not good for them.
Also as keeps being said most BSs just plain don't run. Seven out of nine have very little to no activity so basically saying "just sign up, get your VP and stop whining" doesn't work. If they don't run it's not even an option. Then when those dead ones do run it can just be with people farming VP by trading 500-0 wins with enough alts to get it going. As most rewards are not PvP only and come in a wide range of QLs the most reasonable thing would be to make the means of access to VP something that works across all lvls with the player base the game has. As BSs don't and haven't for the past two years unless they get LOTS more players or sign people up for BSs automatically whether they like it or not don't expect the situation to change. Of course if they quite literally shove BSs down everyone's throats you can expect a mass of cancelations to the point of killing the game entirely.
Yeah, its still passive, but you still have to make sure people are in range, etc. You have to move around for debuff auras to take effect. You have to manage pets. You have to manage perks. It isnt exactly q/afk stuff here. It may not be keyboard raping fun that some other classes are, but it's certainly not amazingly passive stuff either. Adding mines to the mix gives you one extra thing to manage, which doesnt somehow make things more passive in any way.Quote:
Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick
Well, perhaps they should, but seperating it all again isnt really the option now, because this is where population problem kicks in. Trying to get Battlestation running outside prime time hours can be futile task as it is. Moving one of the groups elsewhere , will propably kill it completely. It has to be fixed up there.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixOfAges
I was thinking perhaps introducing a good fast PvM way to gain VP will stop at least all the 211 people in ToTW gear from spending time on Battlestation for months trying to farm the armor.
Maybe it push them to farm it through PvM, then go get level, get more proper gear, and then finally they would come back when they feel like it , to try and have some fun. Because the current system, scares them away and makes them hate that place for good.
Caring if people are in range is given when you move with a group. Moving is just as much an active combat, as me breathing infront of monitor. Its not like anyone else stays rooted. And i CAN just do /follow and still massively augumented the team, in fact, i can still augument it propably more then any other profession can :pQuote:
Originally Posted by K1nkstaah
Other than that, i really see no point discussing this, what can i say, i played 10 i think 220 professions on Battlestation level, Engineers are definitely drastically more passive then everything else. Only ones i didnt play are Trader, MA,Enf and Agent(but i have TL5 Agent ), all 4 are quite complicated and dynamic as far as my knowledge goes.
There simply isnt any other profession that would come even close to Engineer when it comes to passivness of combat. The only part of a game when you have to press more then a few clicks is when you buff or when they kill your pet. The most repeated complaint on Engineer forum is propably "give is some FUN tools". It IS a problem.
So yeah, forgive my lack of boner over planting some mines.
As I've said before even if they did add some improved alternative VP it's not like everyone not interested in PvP would leave. It's the same if they fix up BSs. So long as it is the higher gains method then even with an improved alternative and improved BSs some may split their gains while others would still go to just BSs to get it done faster if they can. Then with BSs more functional and varried they should get more to sign up as while some may want to be purely either or others are fence sitters that would appreaciate improvements at BSs as well as in missions as they do both.Quote:
Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick
Another thing I keep saying is how improvements to BSs would do more to improve things at BSs than more VP. Just how many times have you been number 20+ or 30+ in the queue but it's not running since not even six are signed up on the other side? After that goes on long enough the ones in the long queue leave, or log off. By avoiding that problem in the first place with even just the BS team idea would improve things and keep them more active. Making them more functional so they could run more effectively plus more appealing to the PvPers that are sick of BSs as they are now should compensate for a few less from the PvM crowd.
Then it's not like they'll yank mechs or turrets and even in other win methods those that don't stand a chance may have some function. Even just alternate layouts would help get some PvP people that left back and have no effect on PvM people signing up.
It's still something extra to manage, though having said that the only class I havent played as a 220 on BS is .. an Engineer :p. But it does seem that there would be plenty of buttons to press. Moreso if you want to do things like spam reflect aura so it lands, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick
Though tedious buffing for minutes is pretty much anthrax to PVP fun, as is slllooowww ass sneaking and one hit wonder disables/debuffs which (other than the sneaking) would irritate engineers and make them unfun to play. Which is why my Agent is on the shelf atm. I wouldnt mind a bit of FC attention pointed at how 'fun' classes are to play at times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanofox1
No one?