Could atroxes be made viable for female players please?

I spoke to the original poster in game.. wonder if you guys realize they're a fairly new paid player.

I read the thread and I didn't see a single bit of screaming or shouting (generally represented in typed chat with capital letters). I did see profanity but after reading some of the semi-sexist responses.. well, I don't blame them. If I was new around here and got the reactions some had over a simple suggestion.. I might feel like doing the same thing.

Gotta love the forums.. always giving a warm welcome to new people :)

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Originally Posted by Caloss2

First point: it was all the screaming, shouting, name calling and swearing at other people raising a valid point on Lore that caused the troll remarks, thankfully now those pages are deleted.

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Ah okay. Well this is what happens when things get deleted and the only thing left is a puzzle of words you're trying to solve.

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Originally Posted by Baby

Ah okay. Well this is what happens when things get deleted and the only thing left is a puzzle of words you're trying to solve.

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I read before the deletions. there was no screaming/shouting.. just a person swearing because they got pissed off with the troll responses they were getting.

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Originally Posted by Traderjill

I did see profanity but after reading some of the semi-sexist responses.. well, I don't blame them.

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What?

The suggestion was based on Lore. Lore states Atroxs look masculine because of how pumped full of testosterone they are. OP didn't like this, flips out.


Also, alot of the responses are based on the fact that the gaming world is being invaded by PC/SJW tumblrites and are dragging the entire industry down to appease a none existent and supposedly 'oppressed' minority.


So yeah.


Also my GF thinks Atrox look fine as they are and she can't stand AOs graphical system. *shrug*

I don't understand how would removing gender bias from a breed with unique bonuses that impact gameplay drag down the entire industry.

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Originally Posted by Raggy

What?

The suggestion was based on Lore. Lore states Atroxs look masculine because of how pumped full of testosterone they are. OP didn't like this, flips out.

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This isn't an accurate portrayal of the series of events that took place in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Raggy

Also, alot of the responses are based on the fact that the gaming world is being invaded by PC/SJW tumblrites and are dragging the entire industry down to appease a none existent and supposedly 'oppressed' minority.

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A lot of the responses are based off of the assumption that the original poster is trolling. Why they would even jump to that conclusion, in my honest opinion, only reflects on them personally. If you start a suggestion.. one that you're serious about.. and people respond with statements indicating you're not serious and you're trolling, how would that make you feel? I can tell you that it would be annoying for me though it is rare that I start cursing someone out over it (I did a couple months back however.. we all have a bad day).

As for supposedly oppressed minority. I'm 38 years old and a black female gamer. I can tell you that my experience in games is not going to resemble that of a lot of the people that play this game. When you are in a situation where you either have to hide who you are IRL or deal with stereotyping and hate speech if you do.. then you'll understand why some of us don't mind things being a little politically correct/safe in a video game we play for fun.


Now regarding the semi-sexist comments. I'm talking about statements like this guy's:

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Originally Posted by Voiran

only issue here is that you dont understand the fact that nobody is forcing you to choose atrox. soli enf gets like 1k less hp at 220 than trox. Also soli would be more viable choice for you since you most likely dont have any skill at twinking.

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He had a couple more in the thread.. I dunno.. why would she likely not have any skill at twinking? He also made a comment indicating that because she might be interested in a feminine atrox that she was ugly IRL (that was one heck of a leap of faith).

People on the forums are so jaded that a new person comes and suggests something and they can't wait to tear them to pieces. It is absolutely ridiculous and embarrasing to read to be honest. Theories of alternate characters, trolling, etc.. over a reasonable suggestion to add a couple heads in game? The community of this game is one of the things that I always loved but if this is what we're presenting to the few new folks that start paying for the game then good lord.. why would they stay?

And well.. Lore.. there's always ways to overcome Lore and there is nothing gamebreaking or even majorly significant about a feminine head when you see so many troxes running around in dresses, bikinis and tutus.

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Originally Posted by Raggy

The suggestion was based on Lore. Lore states Atroxs look masculine because of how pumped full of testosterone they are. OP didn't like this, flips out.

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OP was annoyed at being accused of trolling, NOT for being disagreed with. As far as I'm concerned the prime directive for any suggestion or game amendment must be that it makes sense within the context of the game, so if you're disagreeing with me on those grounds, chances are we'll get on like a house on fire and probably have some great conversations even if we never end up agreeing.

The deleted posts were me being accused of trolling, by one user, and my responding in a pretty pissed-off manner to that one user, because as I said in one of the deleted, I really can't conceive of a more dismissive, marginalizing, dehumanizing thing to say of someone than that they don't really mean what they say because it's so stupid and wrong they must be saying it purely for a reaction. To say nothing of the sexism inherent in some of the posts. So I put that one user in his place, and he couldn't handle it.

I really don't want a rehash of what happened earlier, so take this post for what it is: trying to clear up some of the puzzle of words Baby mentioned being left after a thread is trimmed of fat. The user who caused the hostility is in my ignore list, so though I imagine he'll inevitably reply, I won't see it. The matter is closed, all I want is for people who came late to know that I really welcome conversation whether it's to agree or disagree, and that I am being misrepresented by certain people because I reacted badly to being accused of "trolling" by making this thread.

Now, Raggy, regarding what you say about atroxes looking the way they do due to testosterone - all I have to say is that if Adventurers can transform into tiny parrots and massive dragons without the assistance of plastic surgeons, I'm sure you could have atroxes with longer hairstyles and slightly better skin.

In AO, your body can be destroyed and re-created on a whim. You could conceivably get Atroxes who choose to exist in a Solitus-shaped body, or hardcore hippies who prefer to live in the bodies of wolves in the middle of a forest for their whole lives. That kind of thing can be done with the technology available in AO. So why couldn't atroxes who identify as more feminine than others choose to look slightly more feminine?

I'm not even asking for there to be skinny, feminine-bodied atroxes made available. They wouldn't be any stronger than the other breeds then. Part of what makes an atrox an atrox is their ridiculous muscle tone. But would an atrox no longer be an atrox if she grew her hair out a bit? I don't think so.

I'm not even asking for sexy atrox heads. Just atrox heads that look like the owner has made an effort to assert their individuality and gender identity the way the male-looking heads do.

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Originally Posted by Pafpuf

I don't understand how would removing gender bias from a breed with unique bonuses that impact gameplay drag down the entire industry.

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I don't understand why it's even an issue? If you can't 'identify' with a character, what are you even doing playing the medium?

You don't see people wandering around screaming "THIS BOOK IN THE FIRST PERSON WOULD BE SO MUCH BETTER IF THE MAIN CHARACTER WAS A QUASIGENDER HAMSTER ON FIRE".

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Originally Posted by Clamperouge

Now, Raggy, regarding what you say about atroxes looking the way they do due to testosterone - all I have to say is that if Adventurers can transform into tiny parrots and massive dragons without the assistance of plastic surgeons, I'm sure you could have atroxes with longer hairstyles and slightly better skin.

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I'm sure you could. I'm sure you could even have Yalms with high-caliber rotary miniguns on the side to strafe leets with. Just because I want it, doesn't mean it's going to happen. Besides, AO has alot more pressing issues than a new hairstyle and makeup for a predominantly masculine breed.

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Originally Posted by Raggy

I don't understand why it's even an issue?

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It's not an issue, it's a suggestion that makes sense from every possible angle. The issue is with insecure men who can't imagine a muscular woman in a virtual world.

http://www.hrsport.net/photos/orig/4...0000441379.jpg

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Originally Posted by Pafpuf

It's not an issue, it's a suggestion that makes sense from every possible angle. The issue is with insecure men who can't imagine a muscular woman in a virtual world.

http://www.hrsport.net/photos/orig/4...0000441379.jpg

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That's a very odd conclusion and presumption in one.

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Originally Posted by Caloss2

That's a very odd conclusion and presumption in one.

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No offense but that's par for the course of this thread.

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Originally Posted by Raggy

I'm sure you could. I'm sure you could even have Yalms with high-caliber rotary miniguns on the side to strafe leets with. Just because I want it, doesn't mean it's going to happen. Besides, AO has alot more pressing issues than a new hairstyle and makeup for a predominantly masculine breed.

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Yalms with miniguns would affect gameplay. More feminine atrox heads wouldn't. Also, yalms lacking miniguns doesn't marginalize an entire gender.

Personally, I don't agree AO has any more pressing issue than addressing the (presumably accidental) lack of catering to female players' ability to have atrox characters whose presented gender identity reflects their own. Like myself and one or two others have said, they don't play atrox due to this issue, though at least one other than me would like to. What could be more important than fixing the accidental marginalization of a gender?

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Originally Posted by Clamperouge

Yalms with miniguns would affect gameplay. More feminine atrox heads wouldn't.

Personally, I don't agree AO has any more pressing issue than addressing the (presumably accidental) lack of catering to female players' ability to have atrox characters whose presented gender identity reflects their own. Like myself and one or two others have said, they don't play atrox due to this issue, though at least one other than me would like to. What could be more important than fixing the accidental marginalization of a gender?

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With a dev team of 3 people, diverting attention to a simply irrelevant 'problem' WOULD affect gameplay because nothing would get done regarding gameplay for an extended period of time while they 'fixed' this.

Despite the fact there are 3 other breeds in the game with VERY feminine features, including the ACTUAL gender.


It is NOT an issue. I don't play Solitus because I can't stand how they look, despite the fact a few of my toons would benefit from it. Why can't you do that?

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Originally Posted by Raggy

Besides, AO has alot more pressing issues than a new hairstyle and makeup for a predominantly masculine breed.

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So I indeed was right with my assumption. This is just about what the devs should work on and what not. Or rather what others think they should be working on and what not.
So afterall this is just about certain angry people and not the original game suggestion.

Here's a thing guys: Just because something gets suggested doesn't mean the staff will literally drop everything and focus on a make up tutorial for atroxes.

I'd rather see the rebalance, new engine, exploit fixes etc as well, but I do understand that these things are a hell of a lot bigger, than just copying a file from "fe/male faces" and put it into "atrox faces".
(I'm technically challenged, so it might not be that simple.)

If you're just saying "no" to this because you don't want anyone to get something before you get your cookies, then your argument is invalid.

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Originally Posted by Baby

If you're just saying "no" to this because you don't want anyone to get something before you get your cookies, then your argument is invalid.

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I'm say no because it's nitpicking with an none-existent issue.

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Originally Posted by Baby

I'd rather see the rebalance, new engine, exploit fixes etc as well, but I do understand that these things are a hell of a lot bigger, than just copying a file from "fe/male faces" and put it into "atrox faces".
(I'm technically challenged, so it might not be that simple.)

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This is basically what I've wanted to say, but given peoples' reaction to the mere suggestion of female heads, I dreaded to think how they might respond to my making assumptions about the technical difficulty of the suggestion and being wrong.

And Raggy, here's the thing: I think yalms with miniguns are irrelevant. I think the new game engine is irrelevant. I think everything but this issue is irrelevant, because as I've said, the issue prevents me from playing the game the way other people, both male and female but comfortable with masculine-looking characters, get to. As far as I'm concerned it may as well be a bug that prevents me from clicking on the soldier, keeper or enfo profs at startup, and that's why it's the most important issue, IMO.

We all have our priorities, and yours aren't correct just because they're wider.

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Originally Posted by Raggy

I'm say no because it's nitpicking with an none-existent issue.

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But it's not a non-existent issue. I've raised it, a couple of others have agreed with it, and if I remember correctly Traderjill mentioned the issue having been raised multiple times over the years. You don't get to dismiss it as not being an issue just because it doesn't affect you.

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Originally Posted by Clamperouge

This is basically what I've wanted to say, but given peoples' reaction to the mere suggestion of female heads, I dreaded to think how they might respond to my making assumptions about the technical difficulty of the suggestion and being wrong.

And Raggy, here's the thing: I think yalms with miniguns are irrelevant. I think the new game engine is irrelevant. I think everything but this issue is irrelevant, because as I've said, the issue prevents me from playing the game the way other people, both male and female but comfortable with masculine-looking characters, get to. As far as I'm concerned it may as well be a bug that prevents me from clicking on the soldier, keeper or enfo profs at startup, and that's why it's the most important issue, IMO.

We all have our priorities, and yours aren't correct just because they're wider.


But it's not a non-existent issue. I've raised it, a couple of others have agreed with it, and if I remember correctly Traderjill mentioned the issue having been raised multiple times over the years. You don't get to dismiss it as not being an issue just because you think it's not an important one.

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This is just the thing though. YOU, YOURSELF, cannot play an Atrox because YOU cannot stand it. Why must the dev team drop what they are doing to appease YOU?

Why can you not just carry on without play an Atrox? If it really bothers you that much, why are you even playing? (I hate saying that)


If I bought a book and I didn't like the main character, I wouldn't send a letter to the author saying how much I couldn't identify with the MC simply because the MC has arms longer than mine or the wrong shape of elbow, because the author would laugh, rip it up and throw it away.

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Originally Posted by Clamperouge

This is basically what I've wanted to say, but given peoples' reaction to the mere suggestion of female heads, I dreaded to think how they might respond to my making assumptions about the technical difficulty of the suggestion and being wrong.

And Raggy, here's the thing: I think yalms with miniguns are irrelevant. I think the new game engine is irrelevant. I think everything but this issue is irrelevant, because as I've said, the issue prevents me from playing the game the way other people, both male and female but comfortable with masculine-looking characters, get to. As far as I'm concerned it may as well be a bug that prevents me from clicking on the soldier, keeper or enfo profs at startup, and that's why it's the most important issue, IMO.

We all have our priorities, and yours aren't correct just because they're wider.


But it's not a non-existent issue. I've raised it, a couple of others have agreed with it, and if I remember correctly Traderjill mentioned the issue having been raised multiple times over the years. You don't get to dismiss it as not being an issue just because it doesn't affect you.

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It just doesn't affect the game as much as a plethora of other problems do, and those problems affect more players than just you, as you're new to the game you're probably not even aware of 10% of all the problems AO has that are likely to end this 13 year old game with all its' huge history.

There's a new breed of players coming to MMO's the PC crowed, staring at the finger missing all that heavenly glory.

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Originally Posted by Raggy

This is just the thing though. YOU, YOURSELF, cannot play an Atrox because YOU cannot stand it. Why must the dev team drop what they are doing to appease YOU?

Why can you not just carry on without play an Atrox? If it really bothers you that much, why are you even playing? (I hate saying that)


If I bought a book and I didn't like the main character, I wouldn't send a letter to the author saying how much I couldn't identify with the MC simply because the MC has arms longer than mine or the wrong shape of elbow, because the author would laugh, rip it up and throw it away.

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To your first question: because it's a matter of gender equality. If this was about my not liking that atroxes are hunchbacks, you would have a point. But it's not about my distaste for a minor matter of aesthetics, it's about my refusal to portray myself as male yet having to if I want to (in my opinion) play the best breed for certain profs.

Why I'm even playing is because there are other profs that I don't feel strongly about being an atrox on. I have a solitus adventurer and an opifex fixer. I'm perfectly happy with them. What's upsetting is that I don't get to play certain profs unless I'm willing to present as male. I consider that extremely exclusive. We've heard from women in this thread who don't, and it's great that they don't, but to me being made to present as male if I want the stat distribution atroxes offer is unfair.

You're being deliberately obtuse, here. Stop reducing this to a matter of absurdly tiny aesthetics. The gender your character presents as is hardly as minor as having too long arms or a funny elbow. Gender identity is one of the most important part of anyone's makeup whether they acknowledge it or not. Why shouldn't you be able to have your character reflect it, or at the very least not reflect the opposite?