General questions about new nanos...

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Originally Posted by Harios

btw.. what most people don't keep in mind..
is that we can probably self this easy in some months.

I bet many +nano skills items will be added in the future :)

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I'd still like to know what kinda of weird logic is behind giving nt's new nanos with 1.6k-1.7k-ish reqs, when according to a relatively untwinked nm nt I know - she has around 2k-ish in all nanoskills. That's not maxed, no 300 symbs, afaik research not even done, or counting the new nanoskill hud thingies.

But your average fixer probably isn't selfing SWS X, with 1755 MM reqs (or is, but just barely). Yet we're given a short hot - a nano that is cast *IN COMBAT* that needs 1894 MM. I don't mind swapping stuff around to get 1894 MM for sws 11 - although it'd be tough, because I can't take the Hawk off, therefore no phulaks.

No fixer I know casts the 25% slip nano, with it's 1.7k PM/SI reqs. Yet we're given a combat debuff that needs 1.7k PM/SI.

Just makes no sense to me that a nanocasting profession with all green nanoskills gets easy reqs, and a middle ground-ish profession with all dark blue nanoskills gets the reqs needing 300 symbs and arith to cast.

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Originally Posted by Harios

btw.. what most people don't keep in mind..
is that we can probably self this easy in some months.
I bet many +nano skills items will be added in the future :)

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Oh please...YOU can remain calm about this beacuse YOU got more details as a professional.
Try getting into our position mkay? All we wanted was some official backup for the stuff they made up.

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Originally Posted by Ecelon

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=87991

this is what a fex fixer need to cast the new hot in fight, without any nano skills on the armor, and now towers or contracts. you can surely get some skills out of armor without losing to much ar/def from a css equip so you might not even need the research hud.

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I lol'ed @ ur setup ;)
gl @ swapping all that huds while in bs, just to get the 3 mins short hot ;)

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Originally Posted by Kain97

Just makes no sense to me that a nanocasting profession with all green nanoskills gets easy reqs, and a middle ground-ish profession with all dark blue nanoskills gets the reqs needing 300 symbs and arith to cast.

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Ye thats another thing id like to get explained...

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Originally Posted by Koizumi

I lol'ed @ ur setup ;)
gl @ swapping all that huds while in bs, just to get the 3 mins short hot ;)

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jeah than don't bother about snares/roots that didn't land sry you can't have all, and i said if you tak in towers/contract + one bit of nano skills on the armor tab (shoulder pad bracer or ring) you have enough to leave out the research hud making it posible to remain at the as scope so you're as won't decrease.

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Originally Posted by Avari

300 symbs used to be close to impossible to equip, now it's different. A game evolves, you aren't let in on the big plan, neither am I, but I'm guessing that these nanos will be very castable in the future.

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So you think i should wait a year or two?

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Originally Posted by Avari

These nanos do not seem intended to balance anything, but rather fix some old issues for some profs...

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So you think fixing old issues is worth waiting a year or two? Thought they are old by now.

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Originally Posted by Avari

Another notion I'm finding very likely is the relation between nano/combat professions atm. There are plenty of weapons that no nano prof can ever equip or utilize if you aren't making a crap load of sacrifices - why should it be any different the other way around? Should combat profs get to cast all their nanos in the best combat gear? Some doctors give up the 220 heal in order to do more dmg, that's their choice.

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What is your point? Doc has to give up on 220 heal for QL 300 KEC? If a fixer gives up a QL 300 hawk should FC give him 220 doc heal?

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Originally Posted by Ecelon

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=87991

this is what a fex fixer need to cast the new hot in fight, without any nano skills on the armor, and now towers or contracts. you can surely get some skills out of armor without losing to much ar/def from a css equip so you might not even need the research hud.

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ffs its the guy with setups again

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Originally Posted by Koizumi

Oh please...YOU can remain calm about this beacuse YOU got more details as a professional.
Try getting into our position mkay? All we wanted was some official backup for the stuff they made up.

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I have no idea what will be added in upcoming patches.
I have been in your position for 4 years+?
I know exactly how you feel and I know the frustration.
It sux to be dependant on test Databases sux :/.
And you post your anger because you want to be heard and want to have some kind of influence.

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Originally Posted by Koizumi

I lol'ed @ ur setup ;)
gl @ swapping all that huds while in bs, just to get the 3 mins short hot ;)

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You have to make a sacrifice to use these nano's.
Use +nano skills HUDs+armor+etc to cast them.
That is the whole idea behind these nano's.
If you don't think it is worth the sacrifice, don't use it.
After all.. anarchy online is about making choices :).

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Originally Posted by Kain97

Just makes no sense to me that a nanocasting profession with all green nanoskills gets easy reqs, and a middle ground-ish profession with all dark blue nanoskills gets the reqs needing 300 symbs and arith to cast.

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Even if I can understand the frustration, think about it, are those requirements that low? For a NT, they are damn easy, right, but NTs, among other profs, are supposed to be the best at nano casting. Numbers have some kind of meaning, even taken outside of the prof they are related to. 1600ish is easy for a NT, but that's what they are made for. The same 1600ish is harder for other profs, but they aren't supposed to have an easy time at it.

I won't link requirements to usefulness, cause that's a flawed debate imo, but what if, let's imagine, new NT nanoshield had liek 2800ish reqs, or even 3kish... would that make any kind of sense? Sure, that would bring us in the same case than all the prof that will have issues casting their new nano(s), but what would be the sense in that? 3k reqs for 3% betterment? What would you expect your prof to cast with 3Kish requirements?

Don't think in terms of proportions, think in terms of actual numbers that cross the barrier of professions. Imo.

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Originally Posted by Ecelon

harios they won't be happy if these nano skill items don't add although weapon and evade skills cause they don't want to have a choice between casting all nanos and haveing max ar they want one version of end equip in which everything is castable you have the maximum ar posible and the maxium of defs, so called "all in wonder".

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Couldn't say it better :)

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Originally Posted by Harios

After all.. anarchy online is about making choices

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And if you'll excuse me for saying so, it's about time some of the combat profs (not all!!) face this as well :)

Some funny quotes :)

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Crats got 1469/1633 reqs. Same, castable with current gear w/o swapping.

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Motivational Speech: Improved Heroic Measures
Psycho Modi from 1913
Sensory Impr from 1913
Time&Space from 1471

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Thing is - new nanos have lower reqs than existing ones for casting professions

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Crat are supposed to be casting prof or not ?
Cause :
Motivational Speech: Heroic Measures
Psycho Modi from 868
Sensory Impr from 868
Time&Space from 782
And have a look to the improved one just above... 1k+

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NTs have to sacrifice 1 hud/utils slot and some place on shortcut bars.
Same goes for crats.

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Thanks again to have a look above.

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Comments like "Lower nano req's please cause i can't cast them in NR1/2" are most likely from the pvp community, with a sense of irony at least.

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Moreover, if all profs are able to be NR1/2 how about toolsets from others profs ?
ie what about root/snare/debuff/stun/... ?
I think it's a good thing to choose beetween perk NR and cast last nanos.

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I find it ridiculous that to cast engineer buffs engi need to be 220/perked for nanoskills/300 symbs/full arith/relay/NCU, while NTs can cast these nanos at 201 with 200- symbs/deck/no research/no perks in conc, well, there is 215- lock on these nanos, so NTs won't cast it on 201.

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Just makes no sense to me that a nanocasting profession with all green nanoskills gets easy reqs

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Don't forgot that NT means "NANO-Technician".

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Engineers are supposed to go full tradeskill/nanoskill setup? What for? To enhance their team with blockers and use that remodulator that doesn't do damage, but helps their side kill evaders?

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Mind explain 'your' vision on what engineers are suppose to do...you probably reply that you don't like to be called out to avoid answering the question but worth the shot.

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Engineers are supposed to be killer ? or tradeskiller prof ?
Renember to read description of prof while choosing it.

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Are crats supposed to solo LotV soon with range of init debuffs/evades/damage dealing available to them?

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Without healing, you'll be down in 5sec.

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Other profs can temp equip the hud/util item, cast the buffs and then re-equip combat gear.

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Equip delay on nanodeck : 30.00s
Maybe not enough in order to avoid what you are talking about.

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Oh PLEASE!!!
To cast my new team heal i have to give up ALL cc/cm (HUGE dd/ar nerf) get nano attunement thingy (as nerf) and get ai30(huge time sink) or simply resign on Xyun/CoLI (huge nerf agin)...

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As I posted before, in arith/db nanoskill armor and a pair of the lya glasses, I still need champ of nanocombat trained as well as the fixer NCU and a comm relay equiped just to think about self casting the new HoT without swapping my weapon which is damn well hard enough to equip already for most every fixer out there to self cast it.

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Do you have NR1/2/3 perked ? :D

The new nanos are intended to be something that you shouldn’t take for granted. They offer tactical options for your character if you want to make the changes necessary to use them. We know for example that they are very difficult if not almost impossible to cast with NR trained, thats the whole point and exactly why they are set where they are set.

It’s a choice you have to make on an individual level for your character. The designers took a great deal of care to ensure that the math was correct and all the nanos can be cast by the relevant profession. There is nothing ‘impossible’ about the requirements, but there is a choice for you to make, and yes, you might even have to sacrifice something else to be able to use them.

That is the intention.

On a side note when it comes to designing items we generally have to face the fact that at least as far as the feedback is required we are often in a ‘no win’ situation! These new nanos are a great example. When items are within the current budgets players have for skills on their characters then the items are seen as ‘too easy’ to equip and the game is being ‘dumbed down’, then when we make items that are intentionally at the high end of what’s possible, and will be a challenge to equip (and I would thus say something to aim for and be a true target for high level players, something you guys have asked for in the past) then they are suddenly ‘too hard’.

In this case that’s very much the intention. They are not intended to be easy to equip and are something that you will have to consider whether or not to use on an individual basis.

None of that is to say that there might not still be further adjustments, because there might be, but these nanos are designed to have higher casting requirements and will not be altered so as to make them 'easy' to use and equip.

Edit - what Sil said :)

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Originally Posted by Silirrion

We know for example that they are very difficult if not almost impossible to cast with NR trained, thats the whole point and exactly why they are set where they are set.

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Then please consider that Engineers have NEVER been able to train NR because even without it trained we struggle to use our top nanos. Most don't use top nanos, especially on Battlestation where our pets no longer have the "permanent" advantage that was previously stated as being a reason for higher requirements.

I'm all for professions that run with NR trained having to sacrifice but that simply is not true for Engineers.

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Originally Posted by Silirrion

The new nanos are intended to be something that you shouldn’t take for granted. They offer tactical options for your character if you want to make the changes necessary to use them. We know for example that they are very difficult if not almost impossible to cast with NR trained, thats the whole point and exactly why they are set where they are set.

It’s a choice you have to make on an individual level for your character. The designers took a great deal of care to ensure that the math was correct and all the nanos can be cast by the relevant profession. There is nothing ‘impossible’ about the requirements, but there is a choice for you to make, and yes, you might even have to sacrifice something else to be able to use them.

That is the intention.

On a side note when it comes to designing items we generally have to face the fact that at least as far as the feedback is required we are often in a ‘no win’ situation! These new nanos are a great example. When items are within the current budgets players have for skills on their characters then the items are seen as ‘too easy’ to equip and the game is being ‘dumbed down’, then when we make items that are intentionally at the high end of what’s possible, and will be a challenge to equip (and I would thus say something to aim for and be a true target for high level players, something you guys have asked for in the past) then they are suddenly ‘too hard’.

In this case that’s very much the intention. They are not intended to be easy to equip and are something that you will have to consider whether or not to use on an individual basis.

None of that is to say that there might not still be further adjustments, because there might be, but these nanos are designed to have higher casting requirements and will not be altered so as to make them 'easy' to use and equip.

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It's a sound concept and because AO doesn't have the talent-tree setup that WoW for example has, skill-reqs becomes the natural way to make players choose. The only thing that remains to be seen is if the reqs are indeed right for people to make the choice to use them when looking at what they have to give up. And to see if some professions have to give up "too much" compared to other professions. But as you said, those things will be looked at in the time to come and that's good.

*fingers crossed that it will work out :)*

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Originally Posted by Shrubberyman

Even if I can understand the frustration, think about it, are those requirements that low? For a NT, they are damn easy, right, but NTs, among other profs, are supposed to be the best at nano casting. Numbers have some kind of meaning, even taken outside of the prof they are related to. 1600ish is easy for a NT, but that's what they are made for. The same 1600ish is harder for other profs, but they aren't supposed to have an easy time at it.

I won't link requirements to usefulness, cause that's a flawed debate imo, but what if, let's imagine, new NT nanoshield had liek 2800ish reqs, or even 3kish... would that make any kind of sense? Sure, that would bring us in the same case than all the prof that will have issues casting their new nano(s), but what would be the sense in that? 3k reqs for 3% betterment? What would you expect your prof to cast with 3Kish requirements?

Don't think in terms of proportions, think in terms of actual numbers that cross the barrier of professions. Imo.

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I thought the general idea was that *everyone* would have to make sacrifices to cast the new stuff though? Where's the sacrifice nt's have to make? Or crats, or mp's? I haven't talked to a crat or mp about the reqs, but based on what I've heard, they're just as easy as the nt nanos, or require a tiny little tweak. As opposed to the fixer nanos, which require a comparatively large sacrifice, or a higher level of achievement, so to speak. Imo, the actual numbers aren't important. It's the size of sacrifice per prof. And it's unbalanced.

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Originally Posted by Ecelon

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=87991

this is what a fex fixer need to cast the new hot in fight, without any nano skills on the armor, and now towers or contracts. you can surely get some skills out of armor without losing to much ar/def from a css equip so you might not even need the research hud.

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So, you're saying we need to ditch being able to equip our 300 ofab weapon(last I checked, we were actually a weapon profession ... we're at least not a nano profession looking at our dark blue nanoskills) by using the art eye, we need to create a new character or buy an item from someone else since some of us weren't low enough level to get that handy +15 nanoskill HUD item, and that we need to spend several billions of credits or pray we're lucky enough to win the roll in bots on ql300 symbs that everyone wants to get as well so that they can sell for .... billions of credits total, and on top of that, you want us to only be able to keep 1 util slot open for whatever we may need, as well as gimp ourselves in other areas to have the IP to cast the other buffs. If thats all, hell, I'm completely game for it.

edit: forgot that a HUD item needs to be equipped to cast the new nanos anyway, so something in the setup needs to go or it needs to be rearranged.

edit #2 N/M, it can go in util 1, so now we have no basic hud/util slots available, all for that awesome short HoT.

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Originally Posted by Ecelon

jeah than don't bother about snares/roots that didn't land sry you can't have all.

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Fixers snaring ppl to death! ;D
Well, theoreticly, they ARE able to control speed of their enemies, so with enuf nanosk33lz they should b able to stop your breath aswell eh? ;)

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Originally Posted by howlin

So you think i should wait a year or two?

So you think fixing old issues is worth waiting a year or two? Thought they are old by now.

What is your point? Doc has to give up on 220 heal for QL 300 KEC? If a fixer gives up a QL 300 hawk should FC give him 220 doc heal?

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Wouldnt agree with fixing old issues but i agree on the rest.

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Originally Posted by Silirrion

On a side note when it comes to designing items we generally have to face the fact that at least as far as the feedback is required we are often in a ‘no win’ situation! These new nanos are a great example. When items are within the current budgets players have for skills on their characters then the items are seen as ‘too easy’ to equip and the game is being ‘dumbed down’, then when we make items that are intentionally at the high end of what’s possible, and will be a challenge to equip (and I would thus say something to aim for and be a true target for high level players, something you guys have asked for in the past) then they are suddenly ‘too hard’.
In this case that’s very much the intention. They are not intended to be easy to equip and are something that you will have to consider whether or not to use on an individual basis.

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Ur jumping from one extreme side to another.
Wouldnt it b possible to make similiar nanos that would AT LEAST not require swapping into arith? A middle solution...making a choice between sacrificing the items in hud and waiting for nano research AND usual setups?
But than agin ud have to think out something usefull to make people decide to reperk, do iprs and switch em...and alot of us know that FC aint so gr8 @ that...

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Originally Posted by Harios

I have no idea what will be added in upcoming patches.
I have been in your position for 4 years+?
I know exactly how you feel and I know the frustration.
It sux to be dependant on test Databases sux :/.
And you post your anger because you want to be heard and want to have some kind of influence.
You have to make a sacrifice to use these nano's.
Use +nano skills HUDs+armor+etc to cast them.
That is the whole idea behind these nano's.
If you don't think it is worth the sacrifice, don't use it.
After all.. anarchy online is about making choices :).

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Hmm...Its rly good FC has professionals like You, that can remain calm in situations like this, and make ppl understand other points of view...
I think i wont bother anymore, ty...

There is one positive aspect to the high requirements of the new nanos - leveling MPs and traders should be in far higher demand again :) (same comment for pvp teams).

Silirrion: Good to hear that the nanos are intended to give challenges for some professions to really push their setups. May I ask why this only applies to certain professions? The proposed new trader nanos require the grand total of one drain to cast. No swapping, no looking for CMs, no wrangles... I'd far prefer harder to cast, more effective nanos personally :p.

Sil, that is a good idea in theory, but the nanos need to give an actuall benifit to losing what ever you did to cast it.

Take the new engie pet reflect, it has the exact same reflect stats as the rk one and near 2x the skill requirement to cast. The only benifit, it works in sl.

If your going to have a give some to get some setup the getting part has to be compareable to the giving. And for the most part the player base as stated this is not true on the nanos.

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Originally Posted by Acetylcholin

Sil, that is a good idea in theory, but the nanos need to give an actuall benifit to losing what ever you did to cast it.

Take the new engie pet reflect, it has the exact same reflect stats as the rk one and near 2x the skill requirement to cast. The only benifit, it works in sl.

If your going to have a give some to get some setup the getting part has to be compareable to the giving. And for the most part the player base as stated this is not true on the nanos.

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There's a polish saying for this, unfortunately i dont know how to translate this:
"Zamienił stryjek siekierke na kijek" eh? ;)
Basicly what sil wants us to do is to change the gool'ol WV Beetle that we know how to use and love for a new cardboard box with 4 wheels that <might> get us to work tomorrow :/

No I don't get that from him. What I get is he wants to offer us a red beetle or a blue one, and just never looked at the blue one to see if it was a beetle or a cardboard box.