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Vix I could certainly provide any such information if I had been involved in any attacks. But since I am not involved in attacks, and I am in a profession that would quickly be dispatched it would be pointless for me to attend a battle.
But yes I could certainly give screenies, and a log of attacks. Its not that hard...
Since day one of the war? Excellent. I would be very interested in a log and screenshots since day 1 of the battles. Remember, can't have any breaks in the log or it becomes valuless. Perhaps you can post it here?
Ok, Smarty pants, I was referring to if I was an Org leader and it was within my powers I could keep a log of all the tower attacks. And the orgs within the treaty alliance would have to give me the screenies since I cant be everywhere all the time. And its not like you can fake a screen shot.
./me smiles innocently at Benjacrat then winks her eye at him.
I think you see point that it's to late to go back in time to figure out who fired the first shots. I would propose that, if this cooperative come to fruition that you have a reliable person from EACH faction constantly logging tower attacks. This way you can compare and make sure there are no alterations in the document.
Oh yes, I wouldnt have it any other way. And the 3 people would have to be objective, nonbiased people.
That should be easy to gather from my quote!Quote:
Originally posted by Benjacrat
ahem...Jayde
"It becomes troubling to me, then, that the Clans--now under the influence of the Sentinals--seem to be becoming more like the organization they are allied against than they would like to believe. Let’s not forget that this war was mostly a war of ideology and freedom, not of greed. "
Where in the world do you get off saying I am like a Sentinel? We propose nonagression pacts so that "''''''*ALL*"'''''' factions may conduct mining operations free from harassment. Not just for the Clans. Have you not read anything about what we are trying to do? And if you havent, why do you speak about people which you do not know.
"the Clans" and "under the influence of."
The bureaucracy of the Clans have come under the influence of the Sentinels. It's a known fact. The Sentinels are now dictating Clan policy within Tir--basically the capital of the Clans.
Nowhere do I state that all Clanners agree with the Sentinels. But it is obvious that quite a few do. The fact that the Clans are allowing the Sentinels to dictate and basically turn Tir into a Sentinels stronghold is reflective that not many seem to object that much, though.
To be sure, I have many Clan friends. I also know qutue a few that are aggressive and hostile toward Neutrals.
When the Clanners harbor bigots like Commander Steele, it is rather troubling. To declare Neutrals--which have never made any drastic, overt, or widespread effort to subvert or fight againast the Clans--as *worse* than Omni-Tek--who are your direct enemies...and have made numerous attempts to destroy and crush the Clans--simply smacks of ignorance and disregard of peace and humanity.
As a Neutral, I hold pretty equal views of Omni-Tek and the Clans--and such a topic is complex and long-winded, therefore not fit for this line of discussion--however, I have very strong feelings regarding the Sentinals. No matter how you dice it, the Sentinals are little more than petty criminals and thieves, and the fact that the Clans seem to be supporting them more often than not is very troubling.
-Jayde
I also fail to see the connection of the Clan/Omni civil war, and the recent opening of Notum fields for mining by the ICC.
It becomes sadly ironic that the war between Clan and Omni has mindlessly dragged on for so long that most citizens don’t even know the original reason or impetus behind it at all.
Was not the whole reason for the Clans to promote freedom? Yet Neutrals are now viewed as enemies simply because they do not prescribe to your every opinion? Not to be judgmental toward the Omni-Tek way of life, but it is saddening to be persecuted by a group of people who were originally in a very similar environment and situation as today’s modern Neutrals.
What this really seems to boil down to is that the Clans want as much Notum as they can, and they will crush anyone in their way, affiliation be damned. Neutral citizens--who merely wish to maintain their own way of life--are now deemed as “evil” simply because they “get in the way” of this goal.
Would your rather attempt to force Neutrals to take on the guise of Clanners, so they can work in Clan mining facilities against their own principles? Sounds like the kind of thing the Clans used to fight against…not for.
-Jayde
Yes Vix it is obviously an act of agression...
BUT, it does NOT logically follow that a Neutral that attacks a Clan holding is taking sides with Omni. It in NO way logically follows.
What I WOULD expect ANY leader to think is this:
Guild A attacked, without provocation, guild B and hence committed a criminal act.
Or...Guild A attacked, WITH provocation, guild B and hence exacted just retribution.
If said leaders aren't SURE of either of those scenarios then I would EXPECT them to withhold their judgement...especially those that live in glass houses of their own.
You notice though that in NEITHER case above was it necessary for me to tack 'Omni', 'Clan' or 'Neutral' to the front of Guild A or Guild B...hmmm...ANY of you understand what I'm saying?
I just love how each of us is so qualified to be judge, jury and executioner...all in the name of faction...a tag that has become meaningless with ICC's deregulation.
While I don't deny the difficulty in determening guilt in accusations of agression, I also do not see how it is any different that determining guilt in any criminal act...evidence is supplied by witnesses and a judgement is handed down. Please review my proposal on the filing of grievances.
My proposal can be found at www.whispers-edge.com under the public forums.
Quote:
Originally posted by Vixentrox
When a neutral guild takes over a Clan or Omni mine...that is an act of agression. Most Clan leaders had no objections to Neutrals staking a claim somwhere. The big problem came when Neutral guilds decided to TAKE land that was already claimed by a Clan guild. Now I am not ignorant and I know some Clan guilds were criminal and attacked Neutral holdings. I and many other clan leaders argued against such actions. Now having no formal record of who did what to who first, what are most Clan leaders to think when they see Neutral guilds attacking their Clan brethern? What would a neutral leader think? Or an Omni? That's right, in the absence of knowing for sure which playground bully started it you are going to support your friend, ie faction.
In reference to Benjacrat, can you produce such a log and screenshots? Becuase if not...I have made my case. No one knows for sure who bent who over the table first as it stands today.
In the future, if this cooperative is formed and I hope it is, perhaps a set of logs can be started. The problem remains that the existing grievances, real or imagined will still be there.
*walks in and looks around* I am late I see.
Neutrals.. is the wrong word to use to describe the part of the population that is not affiliated with either clan nor omni. The right word is Independent. That way you will not so easily make the mistake of thinking about us as, to quote our beloved Fisk, "thoughtless indifferent drones".
Now, I do agree fully with what Nelida said in her last post. To think factions is very easy... but it is not right. You have to look at the people behind the "factions". The Desert Winds for instance is willing to work with both Omni-Tek and Clan personell in our fight to protect Rubi-Kas delicate ecosystem. We are also willing to take steps against those who harm it wether they be Clan, Omni or Independent.
So as an example: If we see it as necessary to remove a mining complex that is releasing unfiltered waste into vulnerable marshland, blaming that attack on every Independent person on Rubi-Ka borders on childish stupidity. Like every Independent person even cares about marshland! I actually think very few do.
To get to the point before I fall asleep: To generalize people into set factions is a bad idea overall. It only serves one purpose. To make it easier to know whom to hate. And when has ever hate lead to anything good?
aww Shucks, I was all ready to majorly rip this article apart, but I got here too late. All my points were basicly stated already.
*sigh
Anways:
I am Neutral. My Neutrality does not mean that I represent other neutrals.
My neutrality does not mean that other neutrals are responsible for my actions.
My neutrality does not mean I owe any allegance to other neutrals.
My neutrality does not mean that I am responsible for the protection of other neutrals.
My neutrality does not mean I expect anything from other neutrals.
I'm guided by my love of Rubi-ka, and my desire to see her safe an free.
Those who follow my ideals are my allies. Those who do not, are not.
Jayde, pardon me while I rip your view of the Clans to shreds...
I dont know who you think LET the Sentinels come in Tir and take it over. I sure as hell didnt. Every misinformed word that comes from your mouth seethes the anger deeper into my mind on how little you really know. The Majority of the Clans are against the way the Sentinels marched into Tir and took it over.
The CoA does not even agree with the Sentinels actions, and the member guilds were once their greatest supporters. SO where in the HELL do you get off coming in here saying that our policies are influenced by the SENTINELS.
Maybe if the Clanners on Dim2 are so bad you should switch to RK1. But coming into a thread involving RK1 politics and lieing about what we stand for just WONT fly.
***Pardon me but maybe on RK2 that is the case. But on RK 1 it is the exact opposite***
Excuse my lack of self control, but I am sickened by your misinterpretations of our goals. This thread was began so that I could show my disdain for the people that you bring into the conversation. And you dare to sit there and call me one of them.
And who has tried to enslave you into working in clan mines? I certainly want no such thing. We propose peace from agression. Not sharing of profits or anything of the like. We just want to limit our enemies. I dont know how the hell you got that confused with us making you work for us.
Jayde, if your going to talk politics, please know what THE HELL YOUR TALKING ABOUT!!!!
(Sorry, just tweaked my last nerve. I dont know where your getting you information.)
Seems members of my org Blix and Tris have pretty much said it as far as the Desert Winds are concerned. We are prepared to make friends and enemies on all three sides if needs be (in the spirit of fun roleplay), we are neutral to this pathetic omni clan war, and have our own agenda. If we undertake operations against an individual org we are moving against that org and not that side. If we make friends with an org we are friends with that org and not that side.
OOC we will likley defend neutral interests as necessary
RP we may attack/befriend all three sides as necessary
Somewhere on these boards, there is a post that is called “Shades of Grey”. The message this post brings is that in all factions, whether they are Clan, Omni or neutral, there are those who take a more radical point of view and those who are more “neutral”. This is as much a fact today as it was in the past. But indeed, the Notum mining seems to carry this even further.
I do not wish to discuss the ins and outs of neutrality, as it has been done over and over again. But let’s stick to the fact that not all neutrals are “against” but many indeed are pro. Pro all those who try to make this a better world, pro all who respect life, affiliation set side. This to is neutrality.
It is wrong I believe to treat all alike, Clan, Omni and neutral, as neither of them is united in opinion and attitude. After some early skirmishes, The Independent Rubikans have adopted a strict non-offensive policy, unless we are forced into it. This was not done out of fear or weakness, but because of our believes of what is just and right. It is not up to me to clarify the motives of others. But as I do not judge a faction by the deeds of some of its members, I hope my guild will solely be judged by it’s own deeds.
Just to further illustrate the differences between the Neutrals...........
My guild, The Independant Rubikans, will NOT initiate an attack, as some other Neutrals reserve the right to do. Our interest is purely defensive, nothing more. It is our opinion, like Nelida's and Vix's, that aggressive actions will only serve to incite the Clans and OT to rise up and strike us down. We also will not *assist* our Neutral brethren in an attack, as it is counter-productive to the interests of Neutrals as a whole, in our opinion. Indeed, it may well be counter-productive to our very survival.
We are not weak, by any means. Inferring that from my statements here would be a mistake. In fact, if the need arises, IR will fight as fiercely and as passionately as anyone........but only to PROTECT, not to attack. We much prefer to coexist peacefully with our neighbors and friends, be they Omni, Clan, or Neutral.
To recap: we will not assist other Neutral guilds in any aggressive actions. But we WILL help to defend from un-provoked attacks; both our Neutral brothers and sisters, and our allies. I am not the leader of IR, and hope I haven't overstepped my bounds here. But I have confidence the message would be the same.
edit: Ahhh, I see Yarko and I posted at the same time :)
/me hands Benjacrat a fried leetleg ****ed with tyme and rosemary. "Eat this.. it will make you feel better"
Other people: Silly neutrals, we know what a neut is, you neuts haven't a clue as how to be neutral. If you ever decide to use a gun at a clanner, ot, fellow neutral, or a rollerrat you are not neutral. We have no idea as to what you have become, but you sure aint no neutral anymore, cuz we all know what one of those are, and that's a...hmm...err...well it's not one of you people with neutral written on your id tag anyway.
So stop whining and pick a side...
Me: Yawn... *blasts another rollerrat, still remaining neutral*
heh, thanks Tris. I needed that...You always know just how to make me feel better ;)
*sigh*Quote:
Originally posted by Nealandbob
We also will not *assist* our Neutral brethren in an attack, as it is counter-productive to the interests of Neutrals as a whole, in our opinion. Indeed, it may well be counter-productive to our very survival.
You fall into the same trap as many others here do, Nealandbob. It's sad to se a fellow 'Neutral' do such a thing.
Would you please explain to me which interests 'neutrals' hold as a whole, that bars us from initiating attacks? I mean, since a number of 'neutral' guilds reserve this right and all, it can't be as universal as you might like to think.
You seem to claim a cohesiveness to 'neutrality' that simply does not exist. To imagine that all neutrals have the same, or even similar, goals is a HUGE oversimplification, and as such downright wrong. There IS no 'interests of Neutrals as a whole', except for the desire NOT to be associated with either Clan or OT, and staging attacks (well justified of course) will in no way affect this.
By the way, you will all notice that I hold the word 'neutral' in some disdain. It's too easy to confuse with 'bystander' or 'pacifist', as some seem to do. </me glares at several Omni and Clan representatives> Trisagiona suggests Independent, which is a far better word, but my personal favourite is Unaligned.
And yes, Necc, that is an attutude I have seen for myself on occasion. Never could figure how those people thought. Must be aliens, or something. Assuming neutral means pacifist. *laughs out loud*
_________________
This is only my opinion of course, but I'm entitled to it.
BattleFalcon
Member of Desert Winds
*sigh*
Call yourselves Neutral, Independent, Unaligned. It doesn't matter. What I have been trying to get through to you is that the majority of leaders (certainly Clan, probably Omni) don't CARE! Neutrals are lumped together (wrongly) just as all Omni (wrongly) is. Just as many Neutrals lump all Clans under one title. You really have no clue how close you are to having the full wieght of the Clans smash every mine you possess becuse of the actions of a few agressive Neutral guilds. Last night a leader had it on "good authority" that at least one and possibly a second Neutral guild are being paid by an Omni guild to attack the Clan. Whether this is true or not, it was one more reason to incite the Clans against Neutrals as a WHOLE. Very few Clan leaders are willing to speak out on your behalf anymore. Every day I see a new leader ready to destroy the Neutrals. Don't you get it? Don't you SEE? As Nealandbob said, you have incited the Clans. I sincerly hope there is time to avert disaster becuse, if it continues on course, there is no WAY you can withstand ceaseless and repeated attacks by the many Clans your aggressive Neutral brethern have driven into a rage. You don't have the people or resources. This is not a slight...just the plain truth. So please...once again...I implore all who wear the neutral tag...MAKE it YOUR interest to police your own. It is an injust world and I fear deeply for my neutral friends.
</me prays to god your still not mistaking him for one of these peoeple because its getting very upsetting that people dont understand what hes trying to do>Quote:
Originally posted by BattleFalcon
</me glares at several Omni and Clan representatives>
Sounds good to me. I can call you Independants. Seems more fitting to the Desert Winds cause anyways...Quote:
Trisagiona suggests Independent, which is a far better word, but my personal favourite is Unaligned.
People are still thinking that we dont get it. I started this thread so I could show the "Independants" that I do understand and recognize that they all have their own agendas. I have spoken with many neutral guild leaders in the past week, and I understand fully that "Independants" are just that. Fully independant...