The Neutral Council...

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Originally posted by Neuromncer

1)I disagree. Ross had no interest in the neutrals untill they banded into this coalition, and then he saw a group, organized, that could tip the favor of this 'war' onto the side that controlled them. And trust me, it is much harder to control 100 ants when they are scattered, then 100 ants that are grouped together.


2)Guilds of the executive... that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, I can tell you that. Officially? Does that mean that your precious Coalition decided that, or did you go talk to the 40 some odd unaffiliated neutrals and ask them? I though so...*spits*


3)Man? You call me 'man' one more time, and I will make sure that you are not! Mark my words, 'The formation of a visible coalition of neutrals will lead to all our dooms'

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1) Meister was spouting the same BS spiel about us being omni tek property 4 months ago. It's not new. And we are still in formation. The coalition, i'm sorry to say, is still peanuts.

2) You think i LIKE having 9 people i don't know taking the decisions? (ok, maybe 8, i'm mate with fabouille) but still? You think i'm happy Dreammate is on the council??? With her actually GOING OUT with diamondcut??????

* stay calm man, don't flame Dreammate.... you promised yourself *
3) My mistake sugar ;)

Baenre, you've just about got my point of view bang on.

I say if the ICC is going to be goostepping around Newland, I want them to be under the authority of a neutral council. By 'neutral council' I do not mean the neutral coucil, but rather a Neutral Military Council. This Military council would be separate from the General Council and from the ICC. Otherwise, I fear that the ICC peacekeepers would be under control of the other corporations, and would soon turn this into a nasty war.

On the other hand, I'm not so sure that this Military Council would ever be created, and were it created the 'peacekeepers' would probably still be under the influence of the other corporations. So unless we could be assured that the Military Council is given total authority, I think it would be safer just to not have the peacekeeprers here.

Jujuwalker: I think it's time to invest in a quality jockstrap, man.

Sorry for the time in between posts, but while out exploring I ran across an old stockpile of beer, and well, you know what happens when that happens ;)

Now, where was I.... Oh, yeah, there is some debating going on here:

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From Martov

What, are you trying to piss me off? Your little--and little IS the proper word for you--"you did not read what I had written" comment was a cheap excuse to sidestep what I wrote. This time, I'll do it in cutesy-wutsy point form so I don't overtax your thick atrox skull.

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Why, thank you! I am little, and that is the nicest compliment I have had in some time! Now, the comment about my thick atrox skull, I believe that was uncalled for. And your tirade against what I had wrote had nothing to do with what I was talking about.. then again, neither does this one.

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1) The neutrals are considered to be Omni-Tek employees according to the ICC. Philip Ross decides to use this as an opportunity to clean up Omni-Tek's reputation and to expand. Note the fact that the neutral coalition had nothing to do with this happening. If you belive otherwise, read his little chat again. Nowhere does he talk about meetings with the neutral council, nor is it refered to at all.

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What I am saying is that because of the neutrals now banding together, they are getting noticed, not in a good way in my opinion. What, do you expect Ross to come out and say 'Now the neutrals have some cohesion, we at Omni Tek feel that we need to do something?' Of course not.

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2) The ICC, after some 'encouragement' from Sol Corporation decides to come on down to the big happy Rubi-Ka ranch, contradicting their earlier statement on the neutrals.

3) The neutral council is (probably) in favor of sending an emissary to the ICC. Note that as of this time, the ICC has little knowledge of the neutral coalition.

4) Neuromncer claims there will be a big war here because the neutral council (who have been in a massive PR campaign as of late, or not) will suddenly rip off their masks and turn out to the Sol Corporation board of directors. Neutrals get their brains washed then shrunk and go off to fight both clanners and Omniserfs where they are promptly slaughtered.

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God, how I love the way that you put words into my mouth. No where did I mention I thought the neutral council was in the pocket of SOL, (but, now that you mention it.... hmmm.....) ;)

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5) Number four turns out to be BS because there is no PR campaign, and saying 'Sol Corporation' around the NLF guys is a good way to get killed. Furthermore, the council being a democratic group is currently split on the ICC issue.

LEFTOVERS (BUT THEY STILL TASTE VERY GOOD. SO YOU'D BETTER EAT THEM OR IT'S NO DESERT!):

-Your argument that we should be lying low is patently foolish. Neutral cities at the moment are ripe for the picking, more disorganization makes them only jucier to an egotistical Clan or OT. While I am opposed to having a large all-powerful government (like Omni-Admin or the Council of Truth) I don't see how having a defence force is going to hand us over to OT or the Clans when their purpose is to do the opposite.

-Municipal government is a long way from a full-fleged faction. What I meant was something along the lines of a Mayor plus defence and trade chairmen for each town. I happen to follow municipal politics where I live, and I can assure you, they are never, ever going to turn into some fearsome dictatorship. More often than not, they squabble.

-If you think a democracy should represent every single person, then you too are living in a dream world. A democracy is meant to represent the majority.

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I really wish that I could follow your line of thinking... no, I mean follow how you make the radical conclusions based on what I have said. What I am saying, and I will spell it out for you, is this:
The Neutral Coalition not only has an agenda all of its own, which may or may not in the end help the neutrals, but what they have done is put the neutrals on the 'map', so to speak. At one time we (the neutrals) were inconsiquential, as we were nothing but little groups. With the advent of the Neutral Coalition, we now may start to be seen as something much more, and with the ICC coming down (which, I might add, I have never said was due to the Coalition), we now could be considered a side in the struggle. I want to Coalition to disband before they draw to much attention to us. Pure and simple, we don't have the manpower to stop either the Clans or OT from wiping us out if they wanted to. But why would they? We 'were' nothing but a very loose knit, disorganized few. Now, we are 'organized', have ICC peacekeepers to protect us, and a 'Council' to govern us. Sounds to me like trouble.

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Originally posted by Mister_unknown


1) Meister was spouting the same BS spiel about us being omni tek property 4 months ago. It's not new. And we are still in formation. The coalition, i'm sorry to say, is still peanuts.

2) You think i LIKE having 9 people i don't know taking the decisions? (ok, maybe 8, i'm mate with fabouille) but still? You think i'm happy Dreammate is on the council??? With her actually GOING OUT with diamondcut??????

* stay calm man, don't flame Dreammate.... you promised yourself *
3) My mistake sugar ;)

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1) But maybe, just maybe, the peanuts are going to cause the elephants to stampede.

2)There can be nothing good to come of that. You know it, I know it, and anyone that doesn't know it, will soon. Now, just hope that the Dust Brigade keeps out of the picture.

3) Well then! *blushes* Sugar, eh? :)

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Originally posted by Martov
Baenre, you've just about got my point of view bang on.

I say if the ICC is going to be goostepping around Newland, I want them to be under the authority of a neutral council. By 'neutral council' I do not mean the neutral coucil, but rather a Neutral Military Council. This Military council would be separate from the General Council and from the ICC. Otherwise, I fear that the ICC peacekeepers would be under control of the other corporations, and would soon turn this into a nasty war.

On the other hand, I'm not so sure that this Military Council would ever be created, and were it created the 'peacekeepers' would probably still be under the influence of the other corporations. So unless we could be assured that the Military Council is given total authority, I think it would be safer just to not have the peacekeeprers here.

Jujuwalker: I think it's time to invest in a quality jockstrap, man.

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Have you been smoking Bronto Dung? Now you want a Military Council to be formed? What in gods name are you thinking?! That would be like asking Omni AND the Clans to make sure we were no longer a threat, because with the formation of a military council we damn well would be!

I'm going to use point form again here because that seems to be working for me.

1)

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What I am saying is that because of the neutrals now banding together, they are getting noticed, not in a good way in my opinion. What, do you expect Ross to come out and say 'Now the neutrals have some cohesion, we at Omni Tek feel that we need to do something?' Of course not.

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I want to comment here, but your statement is condradictory and confused. Give it another shot.

2) The fundemental flaw in every single one of your arguments is that they are all based on heresay. Give me one proof of your arguments and I will take you seriously. Admittedly, I have commited some of the same crimes in my arguments--but I was trying to point out the errors in your statements and that there are other alternatives.

3) Rather than a military council, you would prefer to have the ICC (who is backed by Sol and the other corportations) running the show? It is more probable that having Sol bouncing about Rubi-Ka there would be more violence than having the peacekeepers locally controlled.

*I realize that number three was a bit of a prediction on my part, but there is plenty of evidence that Sol corportation wants Rubi-Ka. Look in the timeline and the reasons for the ICC peacekeepers' arrival.

I'm sorry i had not idea this was a millitary council?

I thought it was poliltics?

If it is one then please Neuromncer accept my very humble appolgies, and if you propose disbandment i'll second it.

I think we got enough Itchy Triggered Loonies out there with the OT, Clanners and other's moving in, without us adding to the problem!

You get to Millitary side of things then people will ask which side you support, asking to make treaties with you. Then you end up being a side. You stick to poliltics give the others a place to come and talk out problems you avoid war.

I'm not saying dont defend yourself, but what is now being spoken of by some quarters of this forum is different.

Though I will say this I spotted a News Report from Mr Silver from the Sentinel's. Now I've not read it yet, but knowing what he is like I can see war might be on now for a long time.

Nice to see the retoric has calmed a bit.

Kind regards

Blackpagan
NT
NLF

Okay, maybe the term 'Military Council' was a bad choice of words.

1) The 'Military Council' that I--and only I--had thought up was never to replace or to take over the current Neutral Council.

2) The 'Military Council's goal was to prevent any of the ICC corporations trying to use the ICC peacekeepers as a military force against OT or the Clans. I had envisioned it as a guard dog of the peacekeepers from the corporations. I don't want a war and that's why the 'Military Council' was on my mind.

3) If I keep on getting misinterpreted, I'm going to clean house and wipe some of my previous posts because the only one that matters now is my point of the hearsay. Clearly, posting ideas for forthcoming problems are not welcome here.

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Originally posted by Martov
I'm going to use point form again here because that seems to be working for me.

1)

I want to comment here, but your statement is condradictory and confused. Give it another shot.

2) The fundemental flaw in every single one of your arguments is that they are all based on heresay. Give me one proof of your arguments and I will take you seriously. Admittedly, I have commited some of the same crimes in my arguments--but I was trying to point out the errors in your statements and that there are other alternatives.

3) Rather than a military council, you would prefer to have the ICC (who is backed by Sol and the other corportations) running the show? It is more probable that having Sol bouncing about Rubi-Ka there would be more violence than having the peacekeepers locally controlled.

*I realize that number three was a bit of a prediction on my part, but there is plenty of evidence that Sol corportation wants Rubi-Ka. Look in the timeline and the reasons for the ICC peacekeepers' arrival.

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Yes, I will admit that all I have right now are theories. My reason for wanting the coalition to break up is due to the fact that these are theories, and I hope every night when I go to sleep that they remain theories, and no one does prove them. Now you speak of wanting a 'military coaltion' to police the ICC? My friend, you seem to forget that to the ICC, we neutrals are a VERY insignificant percent of the population of RK. I can think of no way that, given our current numbers and differences, that there would be a way to do this. And once this Military Council starts, expect both Clan and Omni (and even perhaps with the backing of the ICC) to wipe us out. When we were seen as uncollective, we were safe. Now the coalition has given us a face, we are no longer.

Martov dude,

your ideas are welcome here, I might not agree with them but as I have said I'm democratic.

So dont just go off and kill your posts. A debate is happening here and it has shown that there are more the 2 side's (keep or disband) to this story.

Explain more of what you mean. Tell us your vision of the Council, its role its goals and what boundries should be set.

Dont just go and leave the Floor.

Blackpagan
NT
NLF

First off, I think some of your initial concerns might have had to with the name Military Council. I just wanted to get the point across. Here are some alternatives (Feel free to throw in some of your own):

-Defence Council
-Peacekeeper Organization Comitee
-People's Liberation Army (NOT FUNNY, MARTOV!)
-Neutral Protectorate Comission (NPC?)
-The Independant Shield
-ICC Neutral Overseers
-Independant Defence Organization
-Peacekeeper Review Group
-The Army that fights sometimes, or other times, we can never really decide whether to fight or not... (NICE TRY, MARTOV. YOU'RE STILL NOT FUNNY)

I could go on like this forever, literally.

The reasoning behind the Military Council was to
prevent, not create a war. I was concerned about the reasons for the ICC's arrival, so I felt that a 'watch dog' was needed to decide where and when the ICC peacekeepers did their thing.

Being a watch dog group, the Military Council would be independant of both the Neutral Council and the Corporations of the ICC. It would be a totally non-political group. The members of the Neutral Council would not be leader of any Organization to further this non-political ideal.

The powers of the Military council would be limited to deciding upon the actions of the peacekeepers. For instance, were the peacekeepers to intervene in a OT/Clan battle, the peacekeepers would first need approval from the Military Council.

That pretty much wraps up my idea of the Military council. The idea was simple. It was a watch dog group and nothing more.

My main concern with the Military Council is whether or not any one will actually listen to the Military Council and the integrity of the Council--though integrity is a problem with any democratic group.

Integrity is a problem that all groups will face. Even Individuals face.

Every day walking around people judge others on many things, the way you look, the peope you hang with, how you speak, reputation etc.

Look at Mr Radiman his Integrity is challenged, the CoT too but mostly his. Now I'm not going to comment further on that, at this time. But integrity is important. As a schollar of history look at some of the Leader of earth 20th and 21st centry. How much integrity did they have. Now its hard to say. How much does OT have? Not much it would appear. The ICC well? CoT, CoA all groups at the moment would appaer to have very little.

A Defence force, properly put together and with popular support might even get my backing. So some of the more agressive names might have to go. If the ICC will agree to be govened when they act by such a force? Well to be honest I think probably not. I'm not slating you Idea Martov I just dont think they will listen you us because we are too small.

Now on to Neuromncer?

Well could you bullet point your theories for us. I know they are in your posts, but for the sake of simplicty can you list them in one place. If its a pain in the ass to do then just say and I wont ask again.

Regards

Blackpagan
NT
NLF

and it is something I can never make up to her.

Nevertheless Cyani is neutral at heart and has made me very close to that also.

I love you dear wife.

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Originally posted by Mister_unknown
cyani sugar.... when did you switch? What happened?

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Wow, you guys really sound like Clanners back before the workers rose up.

Seriously, go back and read the thread.

And this is coming from me, a level 160 Neutral who's been so since he walked out of the Arrivals Hall 14 months or so ago.

Read the thread. You ALL sound like Clanners.

the anarchy you enjoy today and the 'government' that many of you seem to see this Coalition becoming.

The concept is rather simple and is that your Coalition maintains itself as it is today but instead of 'dictating' courses of action simply 'recomends' such after studying and debating the facts around any given issue. Instead of a 'government' it becomes more of an advisory panel offering guidance neutrals in general. No enforcement of rules, no sanctions for not taking the advice and no standing military. In this manner you can maintain your anarchist life style and your neutrality.

Neuromancer may very well be correct that the formation of a 'government' gives you too much visibility today. However a government does NOT necessarily mean 'sided'. Switzerland of old Earth was a government and a very structured society and still very much neutral. It seems to me that some of you view 'neutral' as being anarchistic while others just view it as not choosing sides in this battle. Until that basic difference is settled I don't think you'll come to much of an agreement here.

My bigger worry, given my interest in your autonomy, is the upcoming faction choices Clans will be making. It is likely that one of the Sentinels will become one of the largest Clan factions...a faction that takes a VERY dim view of neutrals, lumping them in as Omni employees and hence their enemy. This view is shared by quite a few Clansmen including some from my own. It has been my struggle to make them see differently.

Unfortunately the thinking "if they ain't with us then they're against us"...an immature, uninformed and narrow-minded concept I feel personally...seems far to prevalent amoung peoples that claim to be fighting for freedom. I'd think YOUR freedom to be neutral would be right in line with their own ideals but apparently that concept simply escapes many of them.

I've also seen the attitude that it is even bad to have 'ambassadors' to Clan and Omni organizations. This, I think, is a mistake. Because of the attitudes expressed above it becomes critical to bring a clear understanding of what neutral means to those that have lived so sheltered a life that they can not discover this on their own. Clearly with the advent of the Clan affiliations this is going to make this task more difficult. I would personally start with those affiliations that are much more radical in thier thought toward neutrals and have Coalition representatives approach the Clan leaders and begin discourse. You can, of course, choose to call these representatives something OTHER than ambassadors...Cultural Exchange Researchers or some other such whitewash.

Anyway, I will continue to support your autonomy as neutrals even if such support comes to disfavor within my Clan.

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Originally posted by Neuromncer


Obviously you did not read what I have written. I don't have a problem with the ICC coming. What I have a problem with is a council that has it's own agenda in mind, and is causing Ross and others to notice the neutrals. Get a highly visible group together, with a political agenda, and what once was at most an annoying pest is now a hive of killer bees, that is my problem. Most of us were happy with not being on the radar, but now due to this coalition, all the neutral population is under the crosshairs.



What you are talking about is making the Neutrals a side, which I am sure that SOL and ICC would love. It would give them the needed handhold into Rubi-Ka that they were looking for. And you fools are giving it to them!

Speak how you may, but all rightful citizens of Rubi-Ka have access to this feed, and I know it is hacker proof. As to me not talking about it? What the hell are you talking about? What is it I am doing? If you feel the need, link this post to your feed, but I will continue to only post here.

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VERY MUCH OOC: I... I actually think that Silverstone is a cool dude. Were it actually possible to join his Clan, I would.