For those interested in an IP-wipe:

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Originally posted by zeroframerate


Uhhh, Snarf, you're clearly not even reading at this point. Maybe if I type in all-caps (the language of the immature and angry), you'll understand better.

Here goes! Apologies ahead of time to other readers, but this is just too funny. :D

OKAY SNARF CAN YOU READ THIS? OKAY HERE WE GO. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT LEVEL AFFECTED THE ACTUAL COST OF THE BONUS YOU PURCHASE WITH IP. HOWEVER IF YOU TAKE A LONG-TERM LOOK AT IP COST FOR A SKILL AT A CERTAIN LEVEL, THE AMOUNT OF IP NEEDED TO PURCHASE A SKILL UP TO THAT LEVEL DECREASES AS YOU GO HIGHER IN LEVEL. PLEASE REFER TO MY PREVIOUS POST IN THIS THREAD FOR THE COMPUTATIONS. THANK YOU.

Wowzers that's ugly to type in all-caps. :D

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Zero. you are misleading with your words.

Let me clear things up for you.

It costs more IP to play the game from level 1-100 then it does to Wipe IP for a level 100 character because of the bonus to skills that Ablilities give. An IP wipe would cause high level characters to allocate all points to abilities first, press accept, and give them a HIGHER STARTING BASE for skills then they would have had they started from level 1, without the extra cost in IP.

My Example is my 56 pistol skill (only gained through base abilities) costs 8 IP to take from level 56 to 57. A level 1 Nano NT that pumps his pistol skill 1 point will cost him 8 IP. Yet he is nowhere near 56. Thats the problem.

> The kicker is if I want to pump my pistol skill from 56-57, it takes 8 IP, same as it did at level 1. If you do an IP wipe, you will give very high level characters the ability to save thousands more IP then they would have had they done things progressivly

Sure. That argument is fine for those very few skills that you will keep low enough where the attribute-contribution is relatively large compared to the skill value. A rare example is something like elec? eng, where you may raise it by 5 at a low level to be able to use night vision. By level 100, your mech eng is now 5 points higher than you really need it and therefore you can argue that you have wasted 5 skill pts worth of IP.

But very very few skills are raised like this. For all core skills, you usually want the highest value possible at any skill level. Or, the skill is sufficiently high that contribution due to a change in attributes makes it insignificant.

I think you'd find that the overall effect is totally negligible considering the amount of IP you get at higher levels. There are far larger problems with IP reallocation than a level 150 character who gets 75,000 IP per level skimming off a total of 3000 IP on pinpointed skill allocation.

Snarf!

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Originally posted by Lucid Flow
The kicker is if I want to pump my pistol skill from 56-57, it takes 8 IP, same as it did at level 1.

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Couple of queries:

1. Is that a specialized skill for you?
2. Do you have any implants that contribute to that skill?

And this one will be so fun for me:
3. What level are you?

If your answers to 1 & 2 were NO, I'm *guessing* you're early 90s. I'd be curious to hear as I'm eager to correct and adjust my spreadsheet. :) Wrong or right, I'll benefit. :)

Bah, don't waste your breath, Snarf. I'll take it from here.

*prepares for post*

Now, Zeroframerate, since you have 0 framerate, I suppose you are still in the newbie backyards. However, if you are not, then you must be incrediably ignorant of the game's mechanics.

Now, when a skill is based on an atribute (Shift + Left click to see them), it requires that attribute to be raised.

ex: Body Dev. is dependant on mostly Stamina. Now, if you have 6 stamina, you can't have very high body dev.

However, if you put no points into body dev, and maxed stamina, you would still have quite a bit of body dev.

Now, if you where level 200 with no stamina\other atributes, you would have whatever you started out with.

All points raised by Atributes mean that they DO NOT add to the cost of the skill. (ex: max out stamina you would have a lot of body dev, but it would be incrediably cheap to raise)

Ah, tisn't it a nice joy in the newbie backyards? I hope you enjoy your stay!
~Chris

Quote:

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Originally posted by Lucid Flow
Zero. you are misleading with your words.

Let me clear things up for you.

It costs more IP to play the game from level 1-100 then it does to Wipe IP for a level 100 character because of the bonus to skills that Ablilities give. An IP wipe would cause high level characters to allocate all points to abilities first, press accept, and give them a HIGHER STARTING BASE for skills then they would have had they started from level 1, without the extra cost in IP.

My Example is my 56 pistol skill (only gained through base abilities) costs 8 IP to take from level 56 to 57. A level 1 Nano NT that pumps his pistol skill 1 point will cost him 8 IP. Yet he is nowhere near 56. Thats the problem.

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That's exactly the point I'm trying to get across! I completely and utterably agree with you! :D Higher starting level = higher starting base from which to purchase skills = less IP spent because of higher level!

I'm on the exact same page as you, Lucid Flow. :) Your findings agree with mine.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Snarf
> The kicker is if I want to pump my pistol skill from 56-57, it takes 8 IP, same as it did at level 1. If you do an IP wipe, you will give very high level characters the ability to save thousands more IP then they would have had they done things progressivly

Sure. That argument is fine for those very few skills that you will keep low enough where the attribute-contribution is relatively large compared to the skill value. A rare example is something like mech eng, where you may raise it by 5 at a low level to be able to use night vision. By level 100, your mech eng is now 5 points higher than you really need it and therefore you can argue that you have wasted 5 skill pts worth of IP.

But very very few skills are raised like this. For all core skills, you usually want the highest value possible at any skill level. Or, the skill is sufficiently high that contribution due to a change in attributes makes it insignificant.

I think you'd find that the overall effect is totally negligible considering the amount of IP you get at higher levels.

Snarf!

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Well snarf, how about this. Your NT so your main skill is Int and Psy for your nano skills and your nano pool. At level 151, I couldn't GUESS how much Intelligence you have, but i'll guess around 400 for the sake of argument only (i'm way off I know).

Look at all of your main skills that are 80-100% dependant on Intelligence? You are telling me that if you pumed your intelligence to full max of 400, then added implants raising your base abilities further, that wouldn't be considered an exploit because you started with base nano skills of over 100+ yet they cost the same as they did at level 1?

In the end, all 6 nano skills, that would be hundreds of thousands of IP in the top end that you saved because you STARTED at way over 100 rather then in your 10s like every other NT has.

Is that fair?

P.S. I'm sorry I have no way of actually figuring our the numbers of IP spent or your Intelligence at your level. I think the point is made though.

Now if Megabio would only talk about the topic in the thread instead of going off on a different tangent completely. Thanks for the contribution, Megabio, but at least try to stay on topic next time. Thanks!

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Originally posted by Megabio
Bah, don't waste your breath, Snarf. I'll take it from here.

*prepares for post*

Now, Zeroframerate, since you have 0 framerate, I suppose you are still in the newbie backyards. However, if you are not, then you must be incrediably ignorant of the game's mechanics.

Now, when a skill is based on an atribute (Shift + Left click to see them), it requires that attribute to be raised.

ex: Body Dev. is dependant on mostly Stamina. Now, if you have 6 stamina, you can't have very high body dev.

However, if you put no points into body dev, and maxed stamina, you would still have quite a bit of body dev.

Now, if you where level 200 with no stamina\other atributes, you would have whatever you started out with.

All points raised by Atributes mean that they DO NOT add to the cost of the skill. (ex: max out stamina you would have a lot of body dev, but it would be incrediably cheap to raise)

Ah, tisn't it a nice joy in the newbie backyards? I hope you enjoy your stay!
~Chris

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Quote:

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Originally posted by zeroframerate


Couple of queries:

1. Is that a specialized skill for you?
2. Do you have any implants that contribute to that skill?

And this one will be so fun for me:
3. What level are you?

If your answers to 1 & 2 were NO, I'm *guessing* you're early 90s. I'd be curious to hear as I'm eager to correct and adjust my spreadsheet. :) Wrong or right, I'll benefit. :)

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Level 72

No Implants to Pistol

I never spent any points in my Pistol skill

Agility: 146

Sense: 142

And I just checked, my pistol skill is 46, not 56.

Absolutely no RPG in history that I know of, online OR offline, has EVER allowed you to reallocate IP's.
Why would AO?

>In the end, all 6 nano skills, that would be hundreds of thousands of IP in the top end that you saved because you STARTED at way over 100 rather then in your 10s like every other NT has. Is that fair?

Sorry Lucid, you misunderstand the IP system too, although a lot more poetically so :)

The cost to raise a skill one point is the same _no matter where I start_. Starting with all attrs at base, it costs me 5 IP to raise MC from 10 to 11, or whatever the default start value is.

Taking your scenario, if I pump int to 400 so that I have 100 MC, the cost for me to raise MC from 100 to 101 is STILL 5. It is still 5 because this is the FIRST time I have manually raised this skill. The displayed value is a summation of other factors that go into determining your total skill.

The IP cost to raise a skill one point starts at 5 and increases from there at the same (quadratic) rate, regardless of what my attribute contribution is:

SKILL_LEVEL = base_level + learned_level + attribute_contribution.

And learned_level is independent of all other variables.

Therefore the order in which I place attributes and skills to reach a displayed skill level is irrelevant.

I'll try to find our old chart of equations that spelled out the skill system clearly.

Snarf!

Quote:

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Originally posted by Snarf
>In the end, all 6 nano skills, that would be hundreds of thousands of IP in the top end that you saved because you STARTED at way over 100 rather then in your 10s like every other NT has. Is that fair?

Sorry Lucid, you misunderstand the IP system too, although a lot more poetically so :)

The cost to raise a skill one point is the same _no matter where I start_. Starting with all attrs at base, it costs me 5 IP to raise MC from 10 to 11, or whatever the default start value is.

Taking your scenario, if I pump int to 400 so that I have 100 MC, the cost for me to raise MC from 100 to 101 is STILL 5. The IP cost to raise a skill one point starts at 8 and increases from there at the same rate, regardless of what my attribute contribution is:

SKILL_LEVEL = base_level + learned_level + attribute_contribution.

And learned_level is independent of all other variables.

Therefore the order in which I place attributes and skills to reach a displayed skill level is irrelevant.

I'll try to find our old chart of equations that spelled out the skill system clearly.

Snarf!

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Snarf, that is my point. :) An IP wipe wouldn't save you points on the low end where you spend 600 IP for 32 Electircal Engineering, it saves you IP on the high end when it costs you hundreds of throusands of IP to raise your matter creation from 700-800 because you started at the base of 100, yet are still capped at 800 for your level (or whatever your current cap is).

You are just proving the counter point.

IP Wipe = Bad because it gives players more IP then they should. The higher the level you are, the more IP you save.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Lucid Flow
Level 72

No Implants to Pistol

I never spent any points in my Pistol skill

Agility: 146

Sense: 142

And I just checked, my pistol skill is 46, not 56.

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Okay, adjusted for the pistol skill difference on my spreadsheet and it's showing level 76, so it's close! Of course it (my spreadsheet) doesn't account for if Funcom rounds-off/up/down fractions, so IP cost might be slightly off in increments at certain points along the scale. If Funcom rounds up, then it's quite possible that you can have a higher base due to gains in fractions (anything greater than .0 becomes 1.0).

Keep in mind that buff/implant/attribute effects are NOT part of the cap.

I am an Atrox NT, lev 152. My int is officially capped at 400 -- that means the number of times I may raise my int is 400 times (in my above equation, learned_skill -- to be precise i think it's learned + base skill, base being a breed's starting value). However, I currently have 452 int due to implants and other things.

Likewise, caps on skills (such as title caps) are not effected by contributions due to attributes. Title caps only allow you to manually raise a particular skill a certain number of times in a period of time.

You don't skim off anything at the upper end because there's nothing to skim off! You naturally max all of your skill increases and the attribute contribution is just a nice bonus!

Snarf

Quote:

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Originally posted by Snarf
Keep in mind that buff/implant/attribute effects are NOT part of the cap.

I am an Atrox NT, lev 152. My int is officially capped at 400 -- that means the number of times I may raise my int is 400 times (in my above equation, learned_skill -- to be precise i think it's learned + base skill, base being a breed's starting value). However, I currently have 452 int due to implants and other things.

Likewise, caps on skills (such as title caps) are not effected by contributions due to attributes. Title caps only allow you to manually raise a particular skill a certain number of times in a period of time.

You don't skim off anything at the upper end because there's nothing to skim off! You naturally max all of your skill increases and the attribute contribution is just a nice bonus!

Snarf

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That is true, you are right. I had forgoten that Base Abilities dont account for your natural cap.

But that is only half the problems for skills you want to max every level. What about things such as pillows that you never plan on upgrading? There are many skills that have no purpose for in maxing. Things such as Flingshot, Burst, Full Auto that are generally used only for equiping. What if you don't NEED max of anything to equip a level 200 item? While many high level players max them anyway, what if you didn't need to? My point is simply that there would be a lot more IP saved not just from bad skill choices but because of players who understand how the system works and know how to abuse it. It will be abused.

My point is it's not clear cut. There has only been one skill color change in recent history and that's not reason for a full utter IP wipe, just an IP wipe of an Advents Multi-Weild skill.

Nerfs to other items have never been so drastic as to warrant the IP spent useless. Name 1.

Besides, no game in history has every allowed this, and Funcom would be blind and stupid to allow it. But hey, if they do, what is stopping me from legally gaining more IP then I should? Nothing, it's all legal when they give people chances like this.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Snarf
The cost to raise a skill one point is the same _no matter where I start_. Starting with all attrs at base, it costs me 5 IP to raise MC from 10 to 11, or whatever the default start value is.

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Snarf, no one is arguing that and we've stated that we agree with that several times already. It's clear folks aren't understand what's being said here.

Think of spending IP this way: what you spend it on actually affects a bonus to your base and you are in no way affecting your base when you spend IP. You spend IP to give yourself a bigger bonus in the skill.

Been fun playing, kiddies ;)

Here are some of the stats Iworked out with a bunch of AOers months ago. This was an original draft copy, Ill try to find the full rundown:


Attr: Attributes: strength, agility, intelligence, sense, perception, stamina
Skills: abilities such as brawling, smg, trade skills, etc.

* Determination of a Character's Attributes

Current_Attr_Level = Breed_Starting_Attr + Practiced_Attr_Level
Breed_Starting_Attr: constant, each breed has set starting attributes
Practiced_Attr_Level: attr increases as a result of putting IP points directly into an attribute.

Practiced_Attr_Level cost:

Cost_To_Raise_Attr_To_X+1 = (BreedAttrMultiplier * X)
BreedAttrMultiplier = constant, per attr type per breed

IP_to_get_attr_from_base_to_Y = BreedAttrMultiplier * [ (Y(Y+1)/2) - (Breed_Starting_Attr(Breed_Starting_Attr + 1) / 2)]

IP_to_get_attr_from_X_to_Y = BreedAttrMultiplier * [ (Y(Y+1)/2) - (X(X + 1) / 2)]


* Skill Levels

Skill_Level = Base_Skill + Practiced_Skill_Level

Base_Skill = 4.45 + (1/4) * Skill_Formula
Skill_Formula = strpercent*(Str_Attr) + agipercent*(Agi_Attr) + stapercent*(Sta_Attr) + intpercent*(Int_Attr) + perpercent*(Per_Attr) + senpercent*(Sen_Attr)

Skill_Level: the true numerical value for a skill, as displayed in game
Base_Skill: a component of Skill_Level, based on physical attributes. We don't think this constant is correct, but it does provide accurate results.
Practiced_Skill_Level: skill level increases as a result of putting IP points directly into a skill.
Skill_Formula: each skill has a formula that indicates the relative
weighting of physical attributes on the base skill.

Practiced_Skill_Level cost:

Raise_Once_Cost = Skill_Base_Cost + (0.2 * Skill_Base_Cost) * Skill_Total_Raises
Skill_Base_Cost: constant, based on color of skill for your prof.
Skill_Total_Raises: the total number of times you have raised this skill.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Snarf
Been fun playing, kiddies ;)

Here are some of the stats Iworked out with a bunch of AOers months ago. This was an original draft copy, Ill try to find the full rundown:


Attr: Attributes: strength, agility, intelligence, sense, perception, stamina
Skills: abilities such as brawling, smg, trade skills, etc.

* Determination of a Character's Attributes

Current_Attr_Level = Breed_Starting_Attr + Practiced_Attr_Level
Breed_Starting_Attr: constant, each breed has set starting attributes
Practiced_Attr_Level: attr increases as a result of putting IP points directly into an attribute.

Practiced_Attr_Level cost:

Cost_To_Raise_Attr_To_X+1 = (BreedAttrMultiplier * X)
BreedAttrMultiplier = constant, per attr type per breed

IP_to_get_attr_from_base_to_Y = BreedAttrMultiplier * [ (Y(Y+1)/2) - (Breed_Starting_Attr(Breed_Starting_Attr + 1) / 2)]

IP_to_get_attr_from_X_to_Y = BreedAttrMultiplier * [ (Y(Y+1)/2) - (X(X + 1) / 2)]


* Skill Levels

Skill_Level = Base_Skill + Practiced_Skill_Level

Base_Skill = 4.45 + (1/4) * Skill_Formula
Skill_Formula = strpercent*(Str_Attr) + agipercent*(Agi_Attr) + stapercent*(Sta_Attr) + intpercent*(Int_Attr) + perpercent*(Per_Attr) + senpercent*(Sen_Attr)

Skill_Level: the true numerical value for a skill, as displayed in game
Base_Skill: a component of Skill_Level, based on physical attributes. We don't think this constant is correct, but it does provide accurate results.
Practiced_Skill_Level: skill level increases as a result of putting IP points directly into a skill.
Skill_Formula: each skill has a formula that indicates the relative
weighting of physical attributes on the base skill.

Practiced_Skill_Level cost:

Raise_Once_Cost = Skill_Base_Cost + (0.2 * Skill_Base_Cost) * Skill_Total_Raises
Skill_Base_Cost: constant, based on color of skill for your prof.
Skill_Total_Raises: the total number of times you have raised this skill.

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This has no value to anybody that can't speak German. ;)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Snarf
Been fun playing, kiddies ;)

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I'm going to work on these figures later tonight to see if they actually jibe. It's easy to take someone else's work and claim it as your own, which is no doubt what you are doing.

I can be insulting to. Your perpetual trolling isn't needed here, kid.

Quote:

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Originally posted by zeroframerate


I'm going to work on these figures later tonight to see if they actually jibe. It's easy to take someone else's work and claim it as your own, which is no doubt what you are doing.

I can be insulting to. Your perpetual trolling isn't needed here, kid.

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He's not trolling Zero, he is actually right on one part. If you plan on maxing a skill, base abilities will have no effect on IP spent to max the skill at any given level.

What he isn't accounting for is the times where there is no need to max the skill, such as spending IP to Equip a Yalmaha or a Kodiak, or various range increasers any trade skills or Computer Literacy (what reason does anybody need more then 750 (801 for NTs for Recompilers)?

There are plenty of examples where you don't ever need to max a skill. IP Wipe would leave that exploit open for blatant use and LEGAL use.

The original statment skill stands. It takes more IP to level 1-100 then it does to wipe a level 100 character and allow a reallocation of IP. It's just the way things are.

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Originally posted by Lucid Flow
He's not trolling Zero, he is actually right on one part. If you plan on maxing a skill, base abilities will have no effect on IP spent to max the skill at any given level.

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Well ... goody because I'm not saying that either. @_@