NT Testing / Feedback requested for latest patch on Testlive.

Hey guys.

As I mentioned recently, NT's were going to be getting adjustments, and today's Testlive notes indicate just that. Unfortunately, there's some kind of network oddity between myself and the AO servers at the moment which looks like Funcom's fault (*points fingers at them unassumingly*), and I can't even log on for more than 30 seconds at a time, or I'm getting the "logon handler is down" stuff.

I'll get that sorted out with them, but I'd like some of you to hop on test to check it out for me and provide feedback. I'm certainly not a fan of any changes to GIVA, so that one irks me a bit to read. I specifically wanted to avoid changes to it, but... that happened anyway.

Michi and I had tossed a lot of these ideas around, but I didn't really expect to see ALL of them and the change to GIVA put in place at once.

NS1 being shop buyable is awesome, so props to Michi on that, at least. It's about time!!

Anyways, check it out, and let me and Digital know what you think. Are these changes too much? On paper, it looks like it, but I have no way to test anything right now :(

*Looks for MP nerf... sees nothing* Hmm... that could be a bit of an issue for us :S

Most seems "fair" but i don't get the change to GIVA at all, it's mostly annoyng for us to get that extra second :)

These was already an extra second if you were casting 3x IU in between (assuming lag was not so much of a factor). I suspect this will create a ~2 second window of... *ok... wut do I cast now...?*

That would be extremely annoying.

I could be wrong but the nerf to NTs in pvp doesn't seem as big as some wanted besides the unwanted nerf to GIVA.
NTs can now go Izzi double > GIVA for a stronger initial hit as well as fit 2 perks into it due to the extra reflect piercing time, this will require testing tho to see how easily doable it is for the average NT.

This is just from testing for 10 ish minutes on NT and noticing times, another thing to note is the 6 sec cooldown on Tactical nukes instead of its old 12sec cooldown. * Doubles have a 2 sec recharge now also*
I know it locks Double but going Double > GIVA > IU or AAO debuffs > Tactical > IU will prolly be the new nuking order for offensive NTs.

Well, it seems Funcom fixed their internetz, so I'll have a look and see what we've got shortly.

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Originally Posted by Rockdizzle

I could be wrong but the nerf to NTs in pvp doesn't seem as big as some wanted besides the unwanted nerf to GIVA.
NTs can now go Izzi double > GIVA for a stronger initial hit as well as fit 2 perks into it due to the extra reflect piercing time, this will require testing tho to see how easily doable it is for the average NT.

This is just from testing for 10 ish minutes on NT and noticing times, another thing to note is the 6 sec cooldown on Tactical nukes instead of its old 12sec cooldown.
I know it locks Double but going Double > GIVA > IU or AAO debuffs > Tactical > IU will prolly be the new nuking order for offensive NTs.

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It's not much of a nerf.

GIVA is pretty obvious; 10% slower cycle. The reflect-stacking change will mostly mean more nano drain. Def focus NTs are slightly worse off.

Following, I'm assuming 30% reflect, negligible Rad AC and no +damage, neglecting GIVA because that's just a cap whenever it's up; doesn't change much.
If you're going through rrfe, Double+IU is about 2.2k dps, up from 1.9k Double/Tactical spam. 16% damage increase.
If hitting through large reflect (NS/AMS), Tactical+IU gives 1.5k dps, assuming every 2nd Tactical uses GAVI instead. That's down from 1.9k Double/Tactical spam. 26% damage decrease.

Putting perks through the extra window from Double is probably a buff, but dunno how to quantify it.
Also, there are 0.5s and 1s windows in the new off focus nuke cycle which make it more amenable to root/blind/whatever.

It looks like NTs lost some OBed survivability, gained damage against most of the professions, and lost damage against themselves and soldiers.
Will have to think about it for a bit more and see if I'm missing something.

You can't do Double+IU the same way Tactical+IU was being done, the recharge makes it so only a insta cast nuke like GIVA will get the reflect piercing benefit.

Double+GIVA > Tactical+IU > Double+GIVA etc etc will be the most effective way of making use of the reflect piercing.

I will test this before speaking too much about it but given that IU is not instacastable and that Doubles and Delayed nukes now share a cooldown it seems that while NT's didn't lose too much PvP DPS, we managed to lose Alpha. And in AO PvP.. Alpha DD is a good chunk of what matters for a Offensive Focus NT.
Are Delayed Nukes even worth using at this point? I fail to see how as it's a wasted Double cast.

I'll see if I can pick fights with the usual targets, particularly those that we already had low success against.. and report on it. If I'm reading this right they shouldn't go down unless they fall asleep.

My reading on this from a theoretical standpoint is.. we lost enough alpha that we may be in trouble to anyone who knows how to fight a NT properly (I kill a good chunk of NT's routinely on my Soldier on Live by simply engaging them properly..) AND we had a 10% nerf on GIVA which will realistically affect PvM more than it affects PvP. We're not gods in PvM damage so that's uncalled for, again.

@Rockdizzle: I'd say the rotation will be, depending on target: CB, Start Perks Up, Double+GIVA, IU, Carefully timed 2nd Double+GIVA to line up with the high DD chaining perks. If the target's not dead by then we likely are.. as Aegis gives us a very limited time frame to do things with.

Will make a new post after getting on test and brawling a bit.

From ICC Shop:

"Nano Crystal (Nullity Sphere)
Rarity: Exotic
Quality level: 90
Price: 52,500,000"

*facepalm*

Well, it's in the store now at least, but still needs a few 0's taken off that price. If anything, NS2 should be the credit sink, and NS1 should be consistent with the cost of other regular nanos. From the perspective of a leveling toon, it would be fantastic to have, but not at that price.

Regarding nuke changes and PVP, I'll deffer that to Digital after he gets a chance to take a look. I will say I don't like the GIVA change, though. I'd still prefer to see a dual functioning nuke (basically, casts different depending on the type of target) over messing with GIVA's timings, if it needed adjusting at all. *From a PVM standpoint* GIVA should have a 9 second cooldown, because without noticeably great damage, we're nothing. The possibility to make dual functioning nanos should make balancing PVM and PVP easier in our case. Can GIVA work in both PVM and PVP perfectly as a single action nano? I had my doubts initially with 18.7.

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Originally Posted by Rockdizzle

You can't do Double+IU the same way Tactical+IU was being done, the recharge makes it so only a insta cast nuke like GIVA will get the reflect piercing benefit.

Double+GIVA > Tactical+IU > Double+GIVA etc etc will be the most effective way of making use of the reflect piercing.

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I think Double+IU is more dps than Tactical+IU through rrfe, even though IU will be attenuated.
You're right about that rotation though. That means that through-reflect damage is 1.7k dps instead of 1.5k I had. So only 10% high-reflect nerf, not 26%.

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Originally Posted by DigitalBath

I will test this before speaking too much about it but given that IU is not instacastable and that Doubles and Delayed nukes now share a cooldown it seems that while NT's didn't lose too much PvP DPS, we managed to lose Alpha. And in AO PvP.. Alpha DD is a good chunk of what matters for a Offensive Focus NT.
Are Delayed Nukes even worth using at this point? I fail to see how as it's a wasted Double cast.

I'll see if I can pick fights with the usual targets, particularly those that we already had low success against.. and report on it. If I'm reading this right they shouldn't go down unless they fall asleep.

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The delayed nuke lets you put IU through reflects. Once reflects are high enough, that should be more damage than just a double.

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Originally Posted by srompu

The delayed nuke lets you put IU through reflects. Once reflects are high enough, that should be more damage than just a double.

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On Test Doubles are now delayed as well though, which allowed me to put IU into Double's Pierce Reflect window.

It works in this funny way:
On User:
Cast Offensive Focus
On Target:
Cast Pierce Reflect, 2 hits, 1.5s delay (each lasts for 1sec)
Damage 3000-5500, 2 hits, 1.8s delay

It has a 2sec recharge. This means that to be sure you land something it SHOULD be a short/instant cast. But if you're really quick about it, IU actually fits. I tested it with a 220 NT vs a 220 Agent running TMS X and it went through, doing capped damage and negating the reflect shield.

This actually makes it worse for all the Soldiers out there who were complaining about us allowing everyone to break their AMS in a way that everyone else could take advantage of by effectively doubling the amount of time they're at 0% reflects.

So as far as what I could test.. It seems New Delayed Doubles+IU will be better than ITN+IU in every way.. and ITN will thus be largely useless.

Interesting, it didn't seem like IU could fit in at first but I guess it can making my first comment on the nerf not being as big as others wanted more true. Ran on test and tried it and it worked.

The fix is fairly simple tho, separate the 2 hits(delayed to 1.8 secs still) and remove the second reflect piercing.
No idea why it has a second reflect piercing when both hits can be delayed seperately to hit at the same time, it was even done before this patch.

*Clarification*

The point of these changes wasn't really focused on Pierce Reflect at all. The point was to spread damage out a bit, giving players a bit more reaction time. With that in mind, did it work?

If as a side effect Pierce Reflect is too strong, I was told it can be reduced from -100% if needed. However, making the actual Pierce Reflect mechanic only benefiting the NT casting the nuke didn't come up.

52m for NS1 in the nanoshop, and that's after the patchnote that said the nanos would be cheaper from those terms? Ouch :p (And I assume that's 52m from an endgame char with tons of Comp Lit.) That's at least one 0 too many! Maybe even two of them.

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Originally Posted by Vinkera

*Clarification*

The point of these changes wasn't really focused on Pierce Reflect at all. The point was to spread damage out a bit, giving players a bit more reaction time. With that in mind, did it work?

If as a side effect Pierce Reflect is too strong, I was told it can be reduced from -100% if needed. However, making the actual Pierce Reflect mechanic only benefiting the NT casting the nuke didn't come up.

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It's not the power of it that's at fault here. It's the duration. It currently lasts for 2 seconds instead of the previous 1sec.
Unless there's a clear way of making sure Pierce Reflect only benefits the caster (or, at least, just NT's if the former's not possible), then a reduction on its duration is the way to go.

As for giving players a bit more reaction time.. I see no real point to it. Why?

If an Agent (w/Concussive Shot+specials and other perks) and Shade (Disorientate+specials and other perks) can be stealthed and have a 4 second stun + a rather massive alpha on you with 1 second of reaction time I don't see what was wrong with our alpha having a 2sec not-from-stealth warning with huge flashy red graphics on it. Not to mention that to hit several profs you also have to hit them at least once with CB, giving them even further warning.

I don't want Agents or Shades nerfed. I just don't want NT's nerfed for no good reason. People just seem to not be used to the concept of NT's having an alpha.. but if they get instagibbed by other profs it's perfectly fine. What's the difference here?

imo the pierce reflect thing should just go away. I don't think it has any merit anymore.

Hm. I never got IU through Double, no matter how hard I spammed. Perhaps lag. Isn't that a huge damage boost though? Edit: Can't math this early. Dunno how much of a boost it is.

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Originally Posted by DigitalBath

As for giving players a bit more reaction time.. I see no real point to it. Why?
I don't want Agents or Shades nerfed. I just don't want NT's nerfed for no good reason. People just seem to not be used to the concept of NT's having an alpha.. but if they get instagibbed by other profs it's perfectly fine. What's the difference here?

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Well, agents and shades are vulnerable in ways NTs aren't. They also have a stun. Very different styles.
Because of that though, I don't think the 2s wait makes sense. NTs don't gank people.

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Originally Posted by Vinkera

The point was to spread damage out a bit, giving players a bit more reaction time. With that in mind, did it work?

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Not sure. "Spread out" and "reaction time" seem different. Damage is notably higher and not spread out at all.
The 2s wait on Double gives time to think over your life mistakes, but the nuke has landed so I'm not sure what that means. On live you land one nuke before reaction anyway.
I suppose on live Tactical-Garuk-Double is more compressed damage than you can get on test, but that had longer warning and lower dps.

Maybe I'm missing something? This patch seems like a general improvement to OF NT.

Seems kinda like a nerf to me, Srumpu. Although the weird +1 sec on the reflect is not to my liking... the reflect pierce seems like some sort of attempt to fix up the pretty much main issue that we spammed as NT professionals... But in a bizarre way, especially since the real solution was to fix the stacking order on damage caps, reflects and absorbs. Which was done a long time after reflect pierce was introduced :(

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Originally Posted by srompu

Not sure. "Spread out" and "reaction time" seem different. Damage is notably higher and not spread out at all.
The 2s wait on Double gives time to think over your life mistakes, but the nuke has landed so I'm not sure what that means. On live you land one nuke before reaction anyway.
I suppose on live Tactical-Garuk-Double is more compressed damage than you can get on test, but that had longer warning and lower dps.

Maybe I'm missing something? This patch seems like a general improvement to OF NT.

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Well, the problem there, is when these complaints came up, not many people decided to offer their 2 cents. Instead, it was just complaining and personal insults. In other words, completely useless babble. Michi told me we had to do something about it, so we did. Best? Nah, I knew it wouldn't be.

Spacing things out, without really reducing damage, was kind of the goal. I think it was probably a path of less resistance to move Doubles to "NT Dot Strain B", both as its new function and making a Tac Nuke, GIVA Double combo impossible. In terms of how that worked out, I'll take Digital's word for it. Michi said he was open to other suggestions, and I hope he still is. I'd think of this as a great opportunity to give some nice variation to Doubles. Something a bit more creative would be nice, I think.

But if these changes suck, they suck. Tell me why, and hopefully we can get other little tweaks to iron them out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vinkera

From ICC Shop:

"Nano Crystal (Nullity Sphere)
Rarity: Exotic
Quality level: 90
Price: 52,500,000"

*facepalm*

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When it's available; even at this price, I call upon the wealthy NTs out there to invest in the next generation by buying it; maybe even for strangers - if they seem like they have merit as an NT.