Soldier vs Enforcer setup discussion (off topic from Soldier forum)

It has always bugged me that a soldier can go full out defensive and have 300 more dodge def, 200 more evade def, and the same AR as my enforcer without his procs running in an SMG defensive setup lol. Assault rifle + tracer would be the equivalent of an enf with his procs running.

At least engineer remains terrible defensively.


***EDIT***

Since this thread was seperated out from another discussion and would likely give the wrong impression based on the OP alone, the point of this thread is that both enforcers and soldiers have too much defense and the purpose of this comment was nothing more than an observation that players complain about 2700 def on enforcers being OP but making no remarks that 3000 def on a soldier is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gatester

It has always bugged me that a soldier can go full out defensive and have 300 more dodge def, 200 more evade def, and the same AR as my enforcer without his procs running in an SMG defensive setup lol. Assault rifle + tracer would be the equivalent of an enf with his procs running.

At least engineer remains terrible defensively.

---

Soldier still has to give up quite a few things to name this work. Enforcer doesn't. Enforcer also had a pretty versatile kit with multiple forms of strong defenses, many if which are also offensive tools (chain stuns and init debuffs are powerful both offensively and defensively) not to mention extremely high nano resist gives you a form of defense against things soldiers can only dream of defending (roots drains nukes etc).

Beyond that if a soldier can get more def rating than an enforcer (I'm shakey on that remark by the way) understand that I've made plenty if sacrifices to do so and enforcers can just 'have it' not needing to make choices in gear or symbiants is already a huge advantage. Every piece of armor I wear besides boots and sleeves has a trade off for my choice. The symbs/imps relevant to defense rating that I've chosen all have trade offs as well for opting for the implant over the symbiant and vice versa.

If your claim about def ratings are true, I can't feel sympathy due to the apples to oranges difference in what decisions I have to make about my character compared to n enforcers faceroll equip that's the best setup for every purpose.


Edit : when funcom puts aad/aao/heal delta/and all relevant weapon skills In each symbiant ill retract my statement but symbionts imbalances are op

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gatester

It has always bugged me that a soldier can go full out defensive and have 300 more dodge def, 200 more evade def, and the same AR as my enforcer without his procs running in an SMG defensive setup lol. Assault rifle + tracer would be the equivalent of an enf with his procs running.

At least engineer remains terrible defensively.

---

200 more def, 1/4th the healing and 1/4th the hp, 1/4th the perk alpha. sounds reasonable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lazy

200 more def, 1/4th the healing and 1/4th the hp, 1/4th the perk alpha. sounds reasonable.

---

Stuns, rage, fears, absorbs.

I would've tried evade setup as NM before switching to trox.

NM coon is most powerful on evaders.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marinegent

Soldier still has to give up quite a few things to name this work. Enforcer doesn't. Enforcer also had a pretty versatile kit with multiple forms of strong defenses, many if which are also offensive tools (chain stuns and init debuffs are powerful both offensively and defensively) not to mention extremely high nano resist gives you a form of defense against things soldiers can only dream of defending (roots drains nukes etc).

Beyond that if a soldier can get more def rating than an enforcer (I'm shakey on that remark by the way) understand that I've made plenty if sacrifices to do so and enforcers can just 'have it' not needing to make choices in gear or symbiants is already a huge advantage. Every piece of armor I wear besides boots and sleeves has a trade off for my choice. The symbs/imps relevant to defense rating that I've chosen all have trade offs as well for opting for the implant over the symbiant and vice versa.

If your claim about def ratings are true, I can't feel sympathy due to the apples to oranges difference in what decisions I have to make about my character compared to n enforcers faceroll equip that's the best setup for every purpose.


Edit : when funcom puts aad/aao/heal delta/and all relevant weapon skills In each symbiant ill retract my statement but symbionts imbalances are op

---

Honestly those sacrifices are inconsequential as long as Mongo Rage exists.

Enforcers require sacrifices for that def just as any profession would. They do not just have it. It is that view point which you seem to share yourself that annoys me. It doesn't take long to roll an enforcer on test and see what sort of stats you can actually obtain if you really doubt my word. Remaining ignorant is a choice players make after all.

It also bugs me that a tank is reaching 3k def, I don't think soldiers should be able to reach those levels. Fundamentally I view soldiers and enforcers as the same, one with max health and absorbs the other with reflects, one being a master of melee skills and the other being a master of ranged skills.

Enforcers and soldiers both get too much def as tanks, they should potentially cap out at 2500 or so as a maximum. It's no different than a doctor with so much def you cannot perk it at a tower war. There is something wrong for that to happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lazy

200 more def, 1/4th the healing and 1/4th the hp, 1/4th the perk alpha. sounds reasonable.

---

I think we can both agree, once we pass your trolling attempt, that both soldiers and enforcers have capable strengths in alpha power, damage, mitigation, and attack rating.

An enforcer with several stuns, snares, init debuffs, SA, dimach, and several high damage perks also being able to reach 2600-2700 static def rating and buffing up to 2800-2900 def temporarily is too high.

A soldier with several stuns, AS, FA, burst, high damage add, several high damage perks also being able to reach 2900-3000 static def rating is too high.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ciex

Dont turn this into next "enforcer is the nerfest" crap made by Gatester.

---

I never say that, its just trolls who like to say that in response to logical analysis and explaination of the current state of a profession. People can't seem to comprehend that the opposite of "xxx have everything" is "xxx do not have everything", not "xxx have nothing". No profession is perfect, but I notice a lot of players try to claim things like that just because they fail.

People complain about how OP 2600-2700 def saying that that much def is too much for a tank while ignoring the sacrices it takes. When a soldier can hit the same Attack rating while maintaining 2900-3000 def rating no one considers that def to be overpowered at all. It's a double standard that annoys me. Player perception is screwed up because they see what they want to see instead of reality.

Fact is, both professions have too much def, but soldiers are far exceeding that potential.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gatester

Unless you want to claim soldiers are worthless at 220 PVP I think we can both agree, once we pass your trolling attempt, that both soldiers and enforcers have capable strengths in alpha power, damage, mitigation, and attack rating.

---

where did i claim that soldiers are worthless? merely said that they have less healing ( 100something standing healdelta vs imongo + 300 something healdelta,), a weaker perk alpha (4 re perks, 2 ai perks vs 1hb/1he+4ai perks) and less hp (23k vs over 70k) which balances out the 200 extra def they can max out at.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gatester

Honestly those sacrifices are inconsequential as long as Mongo Rage exists.

Enforcers require sacrifices for that def just as any profession would. They do not just have it. It is that view point which you seem to share yourself that annoys me.

---

That's a good one. What sacrifices do you think are being made? Just attack rating? You're way off the mark if so. It is one of the many sacrifices being made. What do enforcers give up being full def? Just attack rating. That's the major difference, and it's hardly noticeable when enforcers run around with 50% def check perks, perking fixers without the need for things like 'mongo rage'.

A lot of these imbalances come from symbiants. Your infantry symbiants give you all the relevant stats you might want (aao/aad/health/abilities/weaponskills/healdelta/skilllock) with the exception of nanodelta. Compare this to artillery symbs. We only get 2 of 3 of the AAO/HD/AAD stats in most symbiants that we have, and some symbiants like the leg just flat out don't include HD for no reason. Enforcers get all these stats on all their symbiants. That's what I meant by you don't have to choose.

You're also not making as many sacrifices as I am in other categories to squeeze every last bit of defense rating out that I can get. If i want evades in the backpiece i put notucomm and lose aao/reflects/hp/abilities, you're lacking a notucomm which could give you 14 more evades if you really wanted to go the full mile but instead you'd rather use ofab back which for the tiny of cost of 14 evades, gives you health/aao/aad, so you give up 14 points of a stat that I have to have 300/25 of the other stats i have ZERO of. Refer to your helmet for another similar scenario, I get 30 evades and 45 offensive rating, you get 50 evades, 25 aao, 1000 hp, abilities and the ofab helmet proc. Between these two pieces you've now got more evades, more offensive rating, substantially more health, and procs as well as debuff resistance with your only sacrifice being '14 less evades on the backpiece' between two of these simple armor comparisons.

Across the scale I might come out ahead with more defense rating, but i've given up a ton more **** then you have. To quote you below (which I respond to next) 'Remaining ignorant is a choice players make after all'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gatester

It doesn't take long to roll an enforcer on test and see what sort of stats you can actually obtain if you really doubt my word. Remaining ignorant is a choice players make after all.

---

I said I was 'shakey' on the comment meaning a tad reluctant to assume what you said as fact, I didn't say 'go **** yourself ****** and come back later n00b'. Maybe your reputation of 'enforcerz are the nerfezt pls' precedes you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gatester

It also bugs me that a tank is reaching 3k def, I don't think soldiers should be able to reach those levels. Fundamentally I view soldiers and enforcers as the same, one with max health and absorbs the other with reflects, one being a master of melee skills and the other being a master of ranged skills.

---

They're similar if you boil them down to 2 basic concepts 'Melee/range all-around weapons / Absorbs damage' but if you want to bring 'fundamentals' into play they're quite different. Soldiers are short-term tanks, their reflect shields are meant to mitigate a guaranteed amount of damage for short periods, their primary role is dealing damage. Enforcers are meant to soak large amounts of damage consistently and through use of multiple lines of defenses absorbs/healing/nanoresist/max health buffs be able to maintain a pretty consistent amount of damage mitigation over long periods, they deal considerably less damage over time than soldiers but have much more up front damage to assist with their other role of 'maintaining threat' in short term while they build up threat with consistent taunts - signalling their role again of being long-term tanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gatester

Enforcers and soldiers both get too much def as tanks, they should potentially cap out at 2500 or so as a maximum. It's no different than a doctor with so much def you cannot perk it at a tower war. There is something wrong for that to happen.

---

If we're really gonna call them tanks, then enforcers shouldn't have nanoresist, or root immunity/removal. They should be good at absorbing damage, not ignoring tools that people use to deal damage against them. A tank should be able to mitigate incoming offensive power with defensive tools, not flat out disable incoming tools, that type of utility belongs to support/caster professions. And while we're on the subject I think soldiers deserve more than 1 single defense, i concede ams needs tweaks if they were to have additional defense power naturally (meaning perk defenses like every other profession in this game has besides agents) but they should still have more then 'strong reflect nano and when the duration runs out i have nothing' The only profession worse off in terms of 'how many lines of defense do I have?' is agents because they have zero defenses right now. They have to imitate a profession to 'kind of' have a defense, but even then as a profession they still lack one themselves even if they can poorly imitate a profession to have a 'castable' defense.

As much as it pains me to say this, but I agree with what Gate says about defense ratings of tanks at 3k being too high, imo they should cap at 24-26. Not that it makes much diff in pvm or pvp since everyone has 3-4k anyway. You are only avoiding and evading non nuke support profs lol. I think tanks should get hit, exceptions being MA/shade/fix...unfortunately also god-mode advy who should always get hit because they have every possible defense available.

That being said I am impressed with the numbers Marine has posted, since I primarily play NM it doesn't really affect me although I thought my NM sol was hot 5hit with 26-27k defenses (depending on buffs) which I might be able to boost a little to maybe 28k if I used ql300 imps and agility/evade gear instead of crappy arti symbs. Its enough to evade some pvm mobs a few times but I still rely on reflects-AMS-absorbs for defense primarily and I take any avoided hits as bonus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gatester

I think we can both agree, once we pass your trolling attempt, that both soldiers and enforcers have capable strengths in alpha power, damage, mitigation, and attack rating.

An enforcer with several stuns, snares, init debuffs, SA, dimach, and several high damage perks also being able to reach 2600-2700 static def rating and buffing up to 2800-2900 def temporarily is too high.

A soldier with several stuns, AS, FA, burst, high damage add, several high damage perks also being able to reach 2900-3000 static def rating is too high.

---

Evade soldier has
One stun that has more than a minor chance to land.
Some cool special damage
Dodge debuffs
NO CROWD CONTROL
NO ABILITY TO DO ANYTHING TO CROWD CONTROL (Free movement stims don't count, because they're not really very effective in comparison to how easily and effortlessly you can recast them)
A reflect nano that's able to be completely voided by an engineer, trader, or nanotechnician just walking up to them. Otherwise, it lasts 80s.
A little more add damage than other people
Healdelta
3000 dodge (Not evade) before wit

Enforcer has
3200 to 3400 nano resist
Easily 3200 attack rating without procs
Over 3000 defense without highway.
Ability to deroot and desnare themselves
The ability to be at max runspeed through a snare
Cocoon
Rediculous healing from bio rejuvination, regrowth, mongo, and healdelta.
At least low check perks
Several stuns
Easily more than 27000 free health.
High health before free health anyways.
Highway
Snare
A 1374 absorb that they can just straight up spam on themselves.
Fear that doesn't break like it supposed to, do an enforcer can just alpha someone while they have literally no control of their character.

I can't even so both professions have good tools now...

First off, I do not know why you are getting so angry with me now Marine. You do not know what enforcers are giving up, and you are quoting misinformation which you have clearly heard from other players. I have been hearing these same false claims for years and it bothers me, and I do not want to see you making them as well. I had more respect for you and I thought of you as a player who was more inclined to avoid such things by finding out the truth for yourself. That said you still have several options, believing my numbers, creating your own enforcer to verify them, or repeating things that I can assure you are wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lazy

where did i claim that soldiers are worthless? merely said that they have less healing ( 100something standing healdelta vs imongo + 300 something healdelta,), a weaker perk alpha (4 re perks, 2 ai perks vs 1hb/1he+4ai perks) and less hp (23k vs over 70k) which balances out the 200 extra def they can max out at.

---

I edited the first part out because you did not say that. You ignored soldiers reflects, weapon specials, and damage add, practically everything that makes a soldier strong. What you said is no different than saying doctor's deserve more init debuffing than crats because doctor nuking is weaker.

This post here though...way too much HD, more like 100 to 150 less than that depending on PVE or PVP def setup, and an enforcer cannot have Coli 10, Conc 10, Mutate 10, and Atrox Primary 10...that is 40 AI perks. 70k is probably a bit too much max health in this case (closer to 65k iirc) and is also snared and too slow unless OSB'd with GSF and wolf, which is no state for a melee profession to be in. I would say it's closer to 23k vs 38k as a reasonable comparison.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marinegent

That's a good one. What sacrifices do you think are being made? Just attack rating? You're way off the mark if so. It is one of the many sacrifices being made. What do enforcers give up being full def? Just attack rating. That's the major difference, and it's hardly noticeable when enforcers run around with 50% def check perks, perking fixers without the need for things like 'mongo rage'.

---

Enforcers give up max health, HD, and a large amount of AR to go defensive. You are giving up much of the same things correct? An enforcer with 3000 or even 3200 AR is also not going to perk a good fixer, MA or shade with a 50% def check perk without mongo rage. The only perks an enforcer can reliable land with that much AR are Nano feast, Draw blood, and bring the pain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marinegent

A lot of these imbalances come from symbiants. Your infantry symbiants give you all the relevant stats you might want (aao/aad/health/abilities/weaponskills/healdelta/skilllock) with the exception of nanodelta. Compare this to artillery symbs. We only get 2 of 3 of the AAO/HD/AAD stats in most symbiants that we have, and some symbiants like the leg just flat out don't include HD for no reason. Enforcers get all these stats on all their symbiants. That's what I meant by you don't have to choose.

---

Infantry foot has no HD. Enforcers going full def would be giving up HD here.
Enforcers need ND to perform, it is probably the most vital stat that enforcers also lack in their toolset and symbs.
Infantry symbs have no skill lock and never have.
Artillery symbs have skill lock in the left hand. I believe skill lock left hand implants are also bugged so you cannot technically make a Jobe version?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marinegent

You're also not making as many sacrifices as I am in other categories to squeeze every last bit of defense rating out that I can get. If i want evades in the backpiece i put notucomm and lose aao/reflects/hp/abilities, you're lacking a notucomm which could give you 14 more evades if you really wanted to go the full mile but instead you'd rather use ofab back which for the tiny of cost of 14 evades, gives you health/aao/aad, so you give up 14 points of a stat that I have to have 300/25 of the other stats i have ZERO of. Refer to your helmet for another similar scenario, I get 30 evades and 45 offensive rating, you get 50 evades, 25 aao, 1000 hp, abilities and the ofab helmet proc. Between these two pieces you've now got more evades, more offensive rating, substantially more health, and procs as well as debuff resistance with your only sacrifice being '14 less evades on the backpiece' between two of these simple armor comparisons.

---

What I compared was an enforcer with similar attack rating as your soldier while having 200 less evade close and 300 less dodge ranged. For an enforcer to sacrifice everything for def like you stated, his AR would drop down to values so low that even Mongo Rage would not be sufficient, not to mention additional sacrifices to max health.

Also, giving up things like the ofab back puts seperate burdens on an enforcer, such as potentially dropping an atrox enforcer out of his 2 second nano delta tick due to loss of psychic. This could be remedied with the use of the Xan blue belt of course, but again you are giving up other stats to make this trade-off.

You can also look at it another way. If you replaced your notucomm with your ofab back, you would still have a substantial advantage in def over an enforcer. You could also replace your two def utils with combat tuners and you should still remain above an enforcer in defensive values.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marinegent

Across the scale I might come out ahead with more defense rating, but i've given up a ton more **** then you have. To quote you below (which I respond to next) 'Remaining ignorant is a choice players make after all'

---

I never said you have not given up quite a bit, on the contrary I believe you have given up very important stats to your profession to reach those defensive values. What an enforcer has given up is important as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marinegent

I said I was 'shakey' on the comment meaning a tad reluctant to assume what you said as fact, I didn't say 'go **** yourself ****** and come back later n00b'. Maybe your reputation of 'enforcerz are the nerfezt pls' precedes you.

---

I was not insulted by what you said, I was hoping you would either accept my stats or verify them for yourself. I do not consider you of the same level as the players who choose to remain ignorant, which was why I insisted on a simple check on test server.

Sensible players also know I am one of the strongest advocates for nerfing the enforcer profession and have attempted to find ways of nerfing or removing practically every aspect of enforcer's which has been considered OP by players in these forums. Using "enforcers are the nerfest" against me has been nothing more than an idiots cry over the years.


Actually, if I remember correctly, a good example of when it was used against me was during a suggestion for soldiers. See, for a while I was accused of doing nothing but trying to nerf soldiers into oblivion with every word I said. I even made the suggestion to give full auto a lower first, second and third bullet land rates while giving later bullets higher land rates years ago. My intention was to give soldiers a reliable special for evaders that would hopefully avoid 4+ bullet caps on them (being similar to burst damage on evaders) while still being able to hit professions like doctors, engineers, soldiers, or enforcers with a large amount of damage.

Apparently every soldier wants that lower def check on the initial bullets on full auto now, and given that FA and AS are supposed to lock each other out I would see no reason to put a higher def check on the end either. The soldier playerbase chose to insult me and claim my motives were to secretly nerf the profession instead. I think "idiot" is an appropriate term for those soldiers who halted a suggestion which would have greatly improved soldiers had they attempted to support it rather than attack me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marinegent

They're similar if you boil them down to 2 basic concepts 'Melee/range all-around weapons / Absorbs damage' but if you want to bring 'fundamentals' into play they're quite different. Soldiers are short-term tanks, their reflect shields are meant to mitigate a guaranteed amount of damage for short periods, their primary role is dealing damage. Enforcers are meant to soak large amounts of damage consistently and through use of multiple lines of defenses absorbs/healing/nanoresist/max health buffs be able to maintain a pretty consistent amount of damage mitigation over long periods, they deal considerably less damage over time than soldiers but have much more up front damage to assist with their other role of 'maintaining threat' in short term while they build up threat with consistent taunts - signalling their role again of being long-term tanks.

---

I believe soldiers mitigate far more damage than enforcers do, in fact only an NT can come close to rivaling the amount of damage soldiers can mitigate. This could be verified but do we really have to? I thought everyone agreed that a soldier's form of mitigation was superior to enforcer's, hence soldiers are generally the better tank any time you do not need mongo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marinegent

If we're really gonna call them tanks, then enforcers shouldn't have nanoresist, or root immunity/removal. They should be good at absorbing damage, not ignoring tools that people use to deal damage against them. A tank should be able to mitigate incoming offensive power with defensive tools, not flat out disable incoming tools, that type of utility belongs to support/caster professions. And while we're on the subject I think soldiers deserve more than 1 single defense, i concede ams needs tweaks if they were to have additional defense power naturally (meaning perk defenses like every other profession in this game has besides agents) but they should still have more then 'strong reflect nano and when the duration runs out i have nothing' The only profession worse off in terms of 'how many lines of defense do I have?' is agents because they have zero defenses right now. They have to imitate a profession to 'kind of' have a defense, but even then as a profession they still lack one themselves even if they can poorly imitate a profession to have a 'castable' defense.

---

I agree on both accounts in most aspects. The NR on enforcers is fine, its the only strong defensive stat they have. Rage should not be spammable, but neither should roots and snares. Enforcers cannot mitigate much damage in PVP, but they can run away without problems so its rarely an issue. Soldiers mitigate massive amounts of damage but they have so many other vulnerabilities it becomes an issue in it's own right.

I believe soldiers would have benefited strongly from a form of rage/CC breaker or at least some sort of counter CC tools to deal with targets. At the very least a soldier should have the capability of killing targets who are in range of it for too long, and typically it is not that way. Too many professions can simply tank a soldier until AMS is down and then kill it, or run away and come back to kill it when AMS is down.

I have said it before, not that anyone actually listens, but I rank soldiers incredibly poorly as far as 220 PVP is concerned. Against any reasonably intelligent attacker a soldier is rarely an issue for every profession, and this is an issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wonderland

Evade soldier has
One stun that has more than a minor chance to land.
Some cool special damage
Dodge debuffs
NO CROWD CONTROL
NO ABILITY TO DO ANYTHING TO CROWD CONTROL (Free movement stims don't count, because they're not really very effective in comparison to how easily and effortlessly you can recast them)
A reflect nano that's able to be completely voided by an engineer, trader, or nanotechnician just walking up to them. Otherwise, it lasts 120s.
A little more add damage than other people
Healdelta
3000 dodge (Not evade) before wit

Enforcer has
3200 to 3400 nano resist
Easily 3200 attack rating without procs
Over 3000 defense without highway.
Ability to deroot and desnare themselves
The ability to be at max runspeed through a snare
Cocoon
Rediculous healing from bio rejuvination, regrowth, mongo, and healdelta.
At least low check perks
Several stuns
Easily more than 27000 free health.
High health before free health anyways.
Highway
Snare
A 1374 absorb that they can just straight up spam on themselves.
Fear that doesn't break like it supposed to, do an enforcer can just alpha someone while they have literally no control of their character.

---

Not only is the enforcer information way off but even the soldier info is wrong. I am just going to bold everything that is wrong.

Again, this is why I ask people to make an enforcer.

Yes yes we all know enf is one of the weakest tl7 profs. Much to the dismay of everyone playing them all the time in pvp.

Can we move any post by Gatester about enforcers to his own thread? It seems the guy can't get enough of them...

@ gate, we're just going to disagree for now. We can continue this conversation in PM's if it matters, but i'd rather keep this thread about the setup I posted.

"oh no, there's a profession i can't ever hope of killing because they hardcounter me in every way. i better sit down and die because i have no hope of getting away because they'll just CC me into oblivion" - said no enforcer ever.

AO forums make me laugh so much, you know if I posted from my other account this discussion would have been different. I gotta take a trip but here goes.

Soldiers should not reach 3000 static dodge and 2900 static evade close. 2500 should be the cap for soldier def because of the impact of OSB's and how much additional defense is possible. Professions like agents or bow MP's are barely reaching the same stats as this soldier, yet soldier has far superior mitigation and survival and offense than those two examples. It's not just support professions which have trouble reaching enough AR to handle a soldier at those defensive values either, things like melee advy, MA's or shades who are not offensively oriented would have trouble with a soldier setup as that. Players can buff defense far more than offense levels as well, it just makes survival a joke with as much mitigation as soldiers have.

How is it balanced for a soldier to have 3k dodge def while capable of OSBing to more than 3.5k def? Even if you dropped down to 2.7k def or so, it is still far too high, and that is an issue with the profession overall.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gatester

How is it balanced for a soldier to have 3k dodge def while capable of OSBing to more than 3.5k def? Even if you dropped down to 2.7k def or so, it is still far too high, and that is an issue with the profession overall.

---

because the sacrifice to reach that amount of def is insane. ams3? 100 standing hd? gimping a soldier to this point is pretty much the only way to survive through ams downtime. and even with that amount of def i'm almost certain he can be killed through ams3 by any semi-competant ar-setup prof.

that and a soldier's only form of active def (i.e. ams) is easily mitigated by agents/traders/engies/nts and by everyone else with the application of the w key.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gatester

How is it balanced for a soldier to have 3k dodge def while capable of OSBing to more than 3.5k def? Even if you dropped down to 2.7k def or so, it is still far too high, and that is an issue with the profession overall.

---

Because it still isn't enough on its own and most professions can break 3k attack rating or have perks that mitigate their profs low AR (80% check perks on pistol docs for example).

Because I give up enormous amounts of stats to achieve this. Because soldiers have evade support. We get evades from several nanos, and one of our primary perk lines.

Because soldiers should have something other than just reflects which either work or don't, they're not something that has any middle ground (with their current numbers) they either keep you alive
Near-indefinitely or don't do anything to stop someone from plowing through you.

The main problem with most of your arguments gate is that even if you're right about some points (and you may very well be) is that so much other stuff is currently wrong and theirs way more bigger problems than soldiers potential static evades (like 50% check perks, fixers ability to instantmeep, advys having absorbs/evades/heals/ccresist/mobility AND amazing offensive power, crats endless debuffs that all have durations which last eternally, le nukes, etc).

There's so much wrong with the game that the amount of evades soldiers can get is NOT an issue when they have actual trade offs to have some form of secondary defense while other professions are just gifted with multiple types of defense at no cost because it just happens to be programmed I to them. Maybe soldiers shouldn't get 3k dodge but they can for a huge trade off which is more than we can say about most professions who just get multiple for a of defense in whatever their most optimal equip is without giving up anything ( or little to nothing, and comparing the lack of skill lock and a bright heal delta cluster in the foot on an enforcer to the worlds difference of what a soldier gives up is largely apples to oranges).

Whatever, you're it happy with soldiers static def potential but in not happy about 3 professions being able to completely negate my ability to use my defense after its up and 4 more professions being able to deny me a chance to use my only defense with a single ability (fixer ncu hack, mp NSD, crat and enfo unbreakable fears).

I don't really see all the hoopla here. Part of the problem I see here is some of you guys think this is Atrox Online and you are basing numbers off that breed perks. Thats not how AO works. If that's the only breed you want to judge then you take the tradeoffs that comes with that.

For example...

Sol on NM sol it would not be necessary to drop all the way down to ams3 for a similar setup as Marine's. AMS4 is doable. AMS5 might still be possible using more nano skill items instead of dmg hud/utils, de'valos sleeves, bracer, and scouts armor. (tradeoff)

Enfo ND.. not a problem at all for NM enfo's. From what I can tell give up less than 1k max health (tradeoff) which in the grand scheme of things is not that big a deal for the benefit of near limitless nano (mongo/layers) without NT buffs.

I like some of the ideas Marine has posted and I've always felt that if I had more HD my sol would be near perfect...As NM i have several extra options to use while AMS is down, and adding some additional HD along with my perks could work wonders.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Psikie

I don't really see all the hoopla here. Part of the problem I see here is some of you guys think this is Atrox Online and you are basing numbers off that breed perks. Thats not how AO works. If that's the only breed you want to judge then you take the tradeoffs that comes with that.

---

until that breed perk is nerfed into the ground, all ar numbers automatically get 1500 added to them for sl perks and 3000 for ai perks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lazy

until that breed perk is nerfed into the ground, all ar numbers automatically get 1500 added to them for sl perks and 3000 for ai perks.

---

Im glad you said that.. and THAT my friend is the problem because the discusion is tryin to mix 2 different concepts. For PVP sure you can use Atrox Online numbers if you want, but PVM that MR is irrelevant when you only need 2200 AR to hit anything.

MR is also irrelevant to tanking, and survivability with HD and heals. So trying to do comparisons for both pvp and pvm based on MR is a mistake. I really never seem to have a problem perking anything pvm with my NM/solitus toons.