Will my voice be heard?

Please forgive my LONG ASS rant but I feel this is very necessary after spending several days reading posts.... (and yes this is the right place for this post) I get to my point eventually (you can skip to that part if you wish. I just hope someone up there will here me.

I still consider myself a little new to the world of AO(lvl 36 agent), but not to that of mmorpgs. My friends and I dreampt of a day where games similar to this would exist. Back in the days of BBSes, 2400 modems and games like Land of Devastation (aka LOD). We created a game, much to that of AO, but had elements that would make our game much larger, but workable (from a dev and prog POV). Things like our economic system was extremely complex, but easy to implement based on a supply and demand structure. The world we created was so complete that you (the end user) would be an individual in the game, you could effect the whole storyline impacting not just established players, but noobs as well. You would fill your profession, whether owning a store and selling supplies and developing new weapons, to chasing down leets attacking your children, to even massing a small army of NPCs and your friends, controlling a large flying vessel and taking over the enemies' HQ or even a whole city (logistics withstanding).

So here is my question, what makes this game any different from games like everquest or dark ages of camelot? These online games seem ONLY about killing, raising and exp. But where is the outcry for something not so mind-numbingly stupid, what's to gain from doing mission after mission, killing bosses and completing computer generated missions? AO seemed to me to promise this. But the more posts I read and the longer I play I am beginning to be quite disenchanted by super-imposed reality.

Why is it that our voices are heard only to a small degree? True dev and progs are limited, speeds of computers are limited, money is limiting and it is impossible to please everybody. Exploits exist and the smart survive... protections need to be set in place in order for order to reign... but isn't this ANARCHY? the massive uprising of the suppressed demanding a new government, with no one in control but the small guys with all the weapons?????

So MY POINT? This storyline.... yes very cool, unique to a certain degree (in that it is different then the others out there.) But the story line evolves..... doesn't it? There isn't a single quest we go for to "end the game", is there? So whats the point in playing there is no end... But that is why I play, there is an underlying factor in this game that lets me be an agent, or a nanomage or even a crat... But does the crat act in a government that affects the game... does he have the ability to listen to the people and vote for things that change? Can the agent really get a mission to try to assassinate another crat, becoming like the wind and change the course of the game (I know cheesy analogy), or heaven forbid acting as a double agent?????? Instead of concentrating on a "pre-written" story to dictate future "addons" to the game, why not let the end-user write the story with his/her own actions in the game. And another player write about it, after all this is what we're might be led to believe about the AO right? (I hope so at least)

Bottom line: Make the game truly interesting with not a new "storyline", but by letting the lives of citizens advance a story in a way, so that a random lvl 20 adv could go out and discover something (thats what adv do right explore and map the world?) another player say a clan was creating (possibly building a HQ???). And say the adventure returns to his fellow omnis and a skirmish starts and which ends up destroying the complete buildings, ending up in a massive retaliation leveling parts of Rome.

Will the game be implemented enough so game impacting events could happen without the knowledge of the progs and devs. Yes I know this is wishful thinking. A game like that would led possibly to an ANARCHY among the players and an established system of omni-domination and clan-suppression would disappear...

This game is supposed to be an alternate reality (aka virtual reality) so why can't we live our lives here as well? The social aspect exists, but the world doesn't seem to have the possibility of bigger randomly changing events that allow us to get out of the dungeons, killing generated bosses and delivering imaginary items to imaginary companies that don't impact anything except our pocket book, and some ip. <- BORING!!! Lets do something different for a change, I'm tired of the same quests and the struggle for the next level. I want my player to get out and impact something, maybe nothing world-changing but at least something new, something I could do differently... This game is supposed to let us impact it... will it or am I under some diluted reality that I will never see.

Will our voices cry out? Will it be heard? After all I spend what around $10 a month to pay for a game I want to play... Not a game that I think maybe may live up to its expectations.

But I still play, I have faith in this game, it seems to have at least the potential of becoming one of greatest of the MMORPGs. I don't play any others now... just this one. Let's see what happens. What's your voice for the direction of our lives? Will it be heard?

-The Mystro

"You try to sneak, but you fail miserably and will never amount to anything other than a pathetic leet."

P.S. I know this is a long shot, but if you devs are watching... I would like to be contacted... I, like everyone else, have some great ideas..... :-)

Don't get me wrong, I agree with a lot of things you've said, some of them I even agree with very strongly, however...

Quote:

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Originally posted by Mystro
This game is supposed to be an alternate reality (aka virtual reality) so why can't we live our lives here as well? The social aspect exists, but the world doesn't seem to have the possibility of bigger randomly changing events that allow us to get out of the dungeons, killing generated bosses and delivering imaginary items to imaginary companies that don't impact anything except our pocket book, and some ip. <- BORING!!! Lets do something different for a change, I'm tired of the same quests and the struggle for the next level. I want my player to get out and impact something, maybe nothing world-changing but at least something new, something I could do differently...

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Whilst trying desperately not to sound like a broken record, the answer to your paragraph above is in you.

To a large extent FC simply give us the stage, and they as owners of the theatre that houses it sometimes (i.e. not very recently) tell us what other performances are going on around us. However you are the actor - and this is an improvisation performance you've signed up for.

People are probably getting bored of me saying this, but personally I hit level 100 back in mid-February (coincidently the same time the storyline fffroze)... and since then I've not done one single mission, nor taken part in a single hunt. Why? Because as you said; "<- BORING!!!". I did nearly a year of that, and have no (current) desire to do it anymore.

So what have I been doing the past five months? Some organisation stuff yes, but mainly role-playing and taking part in events, and to be honest the org stuff was role-playing & events anyway - and that is it. That's all I've done.

So if you want to do more than missions, hunting, and chasing XP & IP... go find yourself a RP org... and do something more.

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...364#post558364

It's not all FC's fault.

The only thing holding anyone back from having meaningful fun in this game is... themselves.

Some electronics company (I think it's Sony, could be wrong) uses the slogan "Go Create". That about sums it up.


Garret "Bonefish" Silvestrini
Director - SPARTA
Director of Operations, OTSEC

Founding Member of the Omni-Tek Security Council

garret.silvestrini@ot-sparta.org
www.ot-sparta.org

This looks like the perfect opportunity to introduce my own rant, so bear with me while I harp on at length. Forgive me for being in no danger of getting to the point any time soon.

Personally, I think FC have done a good job of getting what we have to us with the resources they have. No-one is ever going to be completely satisfied, and it is the nature of these things that the vocal ones (forum inhabitants) tend not to be represntational of their player base.

What they've given us is indeed a stage to act upon, and I wholeheartedly agree that there are lots of fun RP things that can be done on that stage that don't involve missions or hunting or PvP or anything of the sort. Like you, I'm sick to death of the level mill, and I'm only level 50!

So if there is so many other things to do, why do people constantly complain about a lack of content? Answer: reinforcement. The game as it is reinforces doing missions and hunting and pvp. When you do a mission you get tokens (if you're not neutral) and you get xp and cash and loot. Hunting is the same, only without the tokens. PvP gives you titles. Role-play gives you... ? The glib answer is it gives you a nice feeling of having had fun, but to be honest so do all the other things and they give you an additional reward too.

The problem is something that I reckon SWG will have as well, and almost any other MMORPG out there at the moment: levels. Skill levels, character levels, whatever-they-are levels - when you have levels, you have a reward structure that is based around the actions that the levels promote. And it is impossible to come up with a system that is non-abusable and properly rewards role-play. So the game is immediately discrimatory against such actions.

It takes someone with a very particular mindset to role-play in the face fo such game conceits. To be honest, of the MMORPGs I've seen AO does the best at promoting this. Why? Because there is a well-thought-out conflict. Because there is something worth talking about, and different people with different views. I can have a debate about the points of view of various clans, or the position of ICC in all this. I can utilise these various factions and power groups within my own stories, limited in scope they may be.

The difference between a single-player and multi-player games is the player. In the former, the game designer caters directly to them. They can offer just rewards for 'role playing'. In the latter they cannot, for one player becomes thousands - all of whom want to be the hero.

Are MMORPGs in general flawed? Possibly. We always have to remember that at heart, this is a game. And in a game most people don't want to be the streetsweeper. They want to be the hero. It's escapism. That's why we have NPCs. We want to be something other than our real life selves. Someone more important, or more powerful, or more respected. Even something different. The key is something ideal.

The fundamental problem with an emergent player-run system is that most people have to play the masses in order for some people to play the heroes. That's not what I want in a game. I get that in real life- I'm a member of the masses. I'm not a rock star, I'm not a vice-president, I'm not a secret agent. So I play something that allows me to be these things in a game.

UO got it wrong when they suggested you can play shopkeepers. Playing shopkeepers is actually no fun. It is a giggle for a bit, but the effort of getting stock, pricing, selling, buying and wotnot loses its appeal. Anyone who gets a kick out of that kind of thing soon realises that it is just as fun in real life, and considerably more profitable.

So why is this a rant? It's a rant because I have no solution. I cannot put my finger on the source of the problem. Is it Funcom? Us players? Some mix? MMORPGs in general? Society? Our parents? The internet? TV? Soda-pop? I have no idea. I have no answers, and I have no firm grasp of where the problem lies. But there is a problem, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing this on so many forum threads and generally getting so worked up about it.

How many people want to tell a story? And how many want to hear a story in which they are the main character?

Don't confuse virtual reality with ideal reality. As soon as you make a game multiplayer you introduce the single biggest barrier to ego: other people.

Mechanita, that was the single greatest post I have ever read on these forums. By all rights, it should be the beginning post of a new string, since not everyone will read through to this. And I think everyone should read that.

Possible to copy and repost it? Or may I?

Thanks for replying-

Bonefish- Yes I have my self an org and I plan to be part of that org, the reason why I posted to this particular board was the fact of the storyline. My point was to have more of the average joe influence on the storyline itself... I saw too much "pre-planning" storylines of future events. And Yes, this makes it hard for programmers and game devs, and may lead to a catistrophic breakdown in the game, who knows? Server's overloaded... poeple dropping... whatever.

But maybe its the fact that I'm at a low level and can't see a bigger picture yet... That's why I've been reading the boards finding out what is going on with this game. I, like some others, have read the storyline. I think it rocks, and frankly is very well thought out and give excellent background, but that's what it is background for the story that will evolve because of US!!! What I want to accomplish with this string is is that possible will our voices be heard? Which leads to my next comment:

Mechanita- This was excactly what I was getting at... but I guess my disclaimers weren't as obivous as the could have been. You said it much more directly then I did. I tend to really ramble a bit, sorry. Anyway yes, "We can't please everybody" and " You would fill your profession, whether owning a store and selling supplies and developing new weapons, to chasing down leets attacking your children" maybe too close to real life, that noone wants to do. But I believe there is a way to make those aspects PART of the game, but not crucial to your character. How cool would it be if you could have a consistant source of income owning a store, letting bots create and build certain weapons yet still going out and impacting the world with the money you make???

SIDELINE: And why can't buildings in the city have "health points" and when gas levels are attacked, buildings could actually be broken down and destroyed? <- these are the types of changes that could bring about great story elements inmpacting the game.

The other thing I was trying to say, (which both of you said much better) was in regards to the storyline. WE CAN ONLY GET SOMETHING OUT OF THE GAME WITH WHAT WE PUT IN TO IT. All too true but my point being, If I put a lot into the game, does it in any way affect a part of the storyline? (I'm not asking for heroship here, I can be hero amung my teammates and that is just fine for me.) True I can make my own web page and rant about my adventures creating my own story line, and yes on occation an org will get together add to the games storyline. But after one year what has really changed? An attack on and Avalon outpost, etc, ect.??? Planed events that are purposfully programed in to cause conflict? Why can't the end user (bar that of programming nightmeres) decide to go in and try to assasinate Ross on his own(and probably fail misserably in the process), and we as the users react to this on the storyline level?

Progressive storyline is what this is about, but is it up to us to move the story, or is it a handfull of the programmers, Gods, and game devs that call all the shots? Will our voice be heard?


-The Mystro

"You can emote many things, some worthwhile, some worthless, but scratching your butt, that is priceless!"

Sure, Tarryk - go for your... oh, you already have :)

Mystro - as a not-exactly rebuttal (I seem to be doing a lot of these):

The problem with a lot of these things is technical fesability. The idea of having a truly dynamic world (buildings we can blow up) is the amount of modifications that the client would have to handle. A lot of the levels are stored and precalculated with collision lines and wotnot. The AI on the server that controls MOBs has to know where the collision is, and that in turn has to be mimiced on the client.

The best you could get away with would be changing the building texture from 'healthy' to 'not-so-healthy'

Of course, the next issue is how the heck do you handle the player side of that? Lets say a bomb is let off in Rompa and it is destroyed. Where do the people who camped out in the 'healthy Rompa' end up? Killing them is bad - it is, after all, 100% suppression and getting killed in 100% suppression is a big no-no.

The idea of owning and running shops is very cool, but would again require some rather radical changes. And the biggest of these would be the database implications. Already we are seeing the results of player-caused database bloat in our apartments - I'm willing to place good money on that being the reason our apartments have a 10-item limit (after all, apartment items need things like their x,y,z and vector stored while inventory items only need a reference).

Technicals aside, the next question has to be 'how much would it add to the game?'

Or, more specifically, how much would it keep existing players and attract new ones? What percentage of players would be retained/recruited from doing this and would it justify the expense of having a dev. team focus on it over play balance issues or bug fixes?

I honestly don't know the answer, but these are always the things we have to remember. Idealism in game design is a wonderful thing and you get some truly innovative ideas coming from the field, but these always have to be tempered by a healthy dose of pragmatism. Will the existing database structure support these changes? How risky will the migration path be between old and new? What is our damage control going to be regarding loss of data? All these kinds of questions and more.

It's unpleasant, but it's the nuts and bolts of running one of these big-ass MMORPGs. So many things fall back to early implementation decisions, and in many cases these can't be changed without a rewrite so fundamental as to invalidate the gameplay of the existing player base.

So yes, I agree with you that there is so much more that could be done. But I really don't expect we'll see a lot of it happening - there are a lot of hurdles to cross and probably some high priority things we haven't even noticed (exploit fixing, for instance).

Again, it comes down to who you cater for. Who benefits? Its all percentages of player base vs. development time. And that is the heart of making and running an MMORPG. Get it right and you've got the killer ap. Get it wrong, and your players jump ship and never return.

To all those 70-something dev. teams currently writing MMORPGs: good luck, guys. You're going to need it. And congratulations in advance to the 10 that survive!